Why aren't theists considered mentally ill?

[flacaltenn]

Yep.. The writers of the Declaration of Independence were delusionary and mentally ill..

But forget about the super-being for a moment. What would you call a group of people who set the alarm every Sunday morning, get dressed and FORCE themselves to go socialize, be inspired and pray. Or people who have beautiful traditions that other ethnicities also celebrate? Folks who give up their vacations to go on mission trips to hellholes? These are DISCIPLINED people, with a large dose of HUMILITY. Where MAN does not have all the answers and shouldn't have supremacy over anyone's UNALIENABLE rights.

So what would you call LESS disciplined, and less humbled people?

Now --- I'm CERTAIN that you accept the premise that ALL MATTER and ALL ENERGY in the entire universe fit on the head of pin prior to creation.. Pardon me while I chuckle about your delusion.. It's a might easier to buy the Plagues of Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea than that there whopper... I see caravans of white restraining jackets arriving shortly.

Before deifying missionaries, it should be noted that they have an economic incentive to doing that. More members in your church, the more tithes you can get, and thus the more power. Chalking it up to simply noble intentions is very naive.

That deserves a big ole Fuck You Delta 4.. My neighbors and their kids here in the Bible Buckle go down to Honduras and Guatemala et al every other year or so to build playgrounds, repair schools, distribute computers, etc. If you think this is ploy that doens't ENRICH THEM with the warmth of human compassion and understanding --- you just might be flailing for a more substantial life you cretin...

THAT's why I CHOOSE to live among these humble, disciplined people.. Because they LIVE good deeds and honest charitable works. Go to hell.. Even tho I personally might not believe in such a place..

 

[flacaltenn]

This constant slamming of people of faith really pisses me off. There are more churches than fast food restaurants in Hillbilly Hollywood and the day after Katrina, EVERY major church parking lot had 18 wheel trailers in there loading supplies all with volunteer labor. They got those supplies to N'orlins before the Fed Govt even got their pants on. Which is good, because once the Feds got there -- they BLOCKED the delivery of aid that came from private sources. My churchy neighbors took more dislocated Katrina dislocated, than 100 acres of FEMA stinkin trailers.

Same deal with the outreach to Central America, my God-loving neighbors have done more for Latin Amer. kids than all of the grandstanding politicians, the Border Patrol or USAID.

To suggest that all this all this happens just to build a business, shows how alienated and isolated from humanity all you haters really are..

 

[sealybobo]

I am an Atheists and I have a big problem with this thread....

I don't care how rational a person is, each one of us has some kind of delusions we believe in.

What do you think? Do you think there are humans beings who are completely rational?


Let me put it this way: Vulcans are figments of our imagination! They are new age fairies! The sci-fi version of angels and flying nuns!!


You have never seen what happens when you put a "normal" person on a crazy pill!!

Bad analogy vulcans and fairies. People use to claim to have seen fairies and believed they existed. Afaik no one's ever claimed to have met a Vulcan. Grays are the obvious analogy to fairies.

Normal person doesn't need a chemical to become crazy. Lock a parent up in a home with their newborn child and never give them any time off and you'll see crazy within 48 hours.

Point taken, but I am referring to the idea that there exists humans that are completely rational. That is, not enslaved to their emotions, intuition and/or ignorance.

Anyone of those can taint rational thought and produce a delusion of reality. The only way to get rid of them is to provide evidence that the individual understands that leads him/her to realize they are holding a delusion.


And even in many cases, it is not really necessary to diagnose them as mentally ill.


I think what you are trying to suggest is that some of these people that "conversate"(I mean have actual discussions, not this 'intuitive conversation' that many christians allude to) with some unseen character are schizophrenic, which is a mental illness and is treated when it gets out of hand.

You are taking what some people say to literal. When a believer says he had a discussion with god or something of the like, he did what everyone does. He sat down and reasoned out what he believed to be right or best--as according to his ideas and values.

Most of them are not crazy, they just talk like they are crazy. Big difference.

And it isn't like we weren't one of them at some point to know exactly what they are going through. Most of us atheists at one point believed in god too.

And I love it when a theist says, "you couldn't have possibly believed fully ever". And to be honest they are right. Maybe I believed whatever my parents told me without question when it came to god but even then I bet you I had some doubts. I remember having doubts when I was really really young. An aunt tried to tell me the stories in the bible and she said they were literally true. I remember being conflicted on that. So technically christians are right. I never believed 100%. But I still said I was a christian, said I believed in god and even talked to this god. But no he never talked back to me. For some reason that didn't bother me. I could explain away a lot in my belief for a god. I even re invented him. I decided the organized religions are all man made and corrupt. It didn't even dawn on me that if they are all made up, so too may be god.

So no I didn't ever buy Christianity 100% but I completely believed in god until someone pointed out what a stupid thing that is and they pointed out all the reasons why it is dumb and they had me listen to some great atheist debaters and I am not 100% convinced that organized religion's god(s) are completely made up.

As for if there is a god of any kind? One that "made us"? I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what if anything made us. But is it the fire and brimstone bible koran old testament adam smith god? Not a chance in hell.

 

[flacaltenn]

And it isn't like we weren't one of them at some point to know exactly what they are going through. Most of us atheists at one point believed in god too.

And I love it when a theist says, "you couldn't have possibly believed fully ever". And to be honest they are right. Maybe I believed whatever my parents told me without question when it came to god but even then I bet you I had some doubts. I remember having doubts when I was really really young. An aunt tried to tell me the stories in the bible and she said they were literally true. I remember being conflicted on that. So technically christians are right. I never believed 100%. But I still said I was a christian, said I believed in god and even talked to this god. But no he never talked back to me. For some reason that didn't bother me. I could explain away a lot in my belief for a god. I even re invented him. I decided the organized religions are all man made and corrupt. It didn't even dawn on me that if they are all made up, so too may be god.

So no I didn't ever buy Christianity 100% but I completely believed in god until someone pointed out what a stupid thing that is and they pointed out all the reasons why it is dumb and they had me listen to some great atheist debaters and I am not 100% convinced that organized religion's god(s) are completely made up.

As for if there is a god of any kind? One that "made us"? I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what if anything made us. But is it the fire and brimstone bible koran old testament adam smith god? Not a chance in hell.

I have never seen a litmus test on "beliefs" as a requisite for joining a Church or Synagogue. My unbearable "secular humanist" atheist in-laws STILL seek out a church for Sunday service simply because they like the DISCIPLINE of getting up on Sundays, dressing in their best clothes and schmoozing with folks socially.

It's the Ritual, Tradition, Discipline, and Charitable work that draws people in. Kids in Sunday School don't get graded on "depths of belief". And I used to teach Sunday School when I was in College.

They learn a bit a HUMILITY which is a commodity that "secular humanist atheists" totally lack. And they should learn that a little humility makes them much more socially adept.. It's on demonstration right in this thread. The claims to superiority are somewhat nauseating..

 

[hotpotato]

Humility? I wonder if they teach that in Gismo's church?

Well done on your charitable works down south though Flac...nice one. My cousin is a big believer, he spends a lot of time doing similar work in Haiti..I applaud you both.

 

[flacaltenn]

Humility? I wonder if they teach that in Gismo's church?

Well done on your charitable works down south though Flac...nice one. My cousin is a big believer, he spends a lot of time doing similar work in Haiti..I applaud you both.

Don't applaud me.. I'm a real slacker compared to my Church going neighbors. I defend people of faith because I ADMIRE them for what they accomplish.. And I'd much rather live amongst them than my old days in the "secular humanity" of academia or my time with the nutcases in California... Prime candidates for "humility" training would be College staff and admin..

 

[AVG-JOE]

...Perhaps delusional disorders should be ignored unless and until BEHAVIOR warrants state intervention.

You mean like mutilating male babies' genitals and then sucking the blood from the incisions?

That question isn't intended disrespectfully.

How do we determine which sacred religious traditions should be considered the sort of behavior that "warrants state intervention"?

The same way we always have... Legislatively, followed by enforcement and the judicial process.

This ain't rocket science - fair and simple Civil Laws that ALWAYS trump Religious Laws (sacred or not).

 

[sealybobo]

And it isn't like we weren't one of them at some point to know exactly what they are going through. Most of us atheists at one point believed in god too.

And I love it when a theist says, "you couldn't have possibly believed fully ever". And to be honest they are right. Maybe I believed whatever my parents told me without question when it came to god but even then I bet you I had some doubts. I remember having doubts when I was really really young. An aunt tried to tell me the stories in the bible and she said they were literally true. I remember being conflicted on that. So technically christians are right. I never believed 100%. But I still said I was a christian, said I believed in god and even talked to this god. But no he never talked back to me. For some reason that didn't bother me. I could explain away a lot in my belief for a god. I even re invented him. I decided the organized religions are all man made and corrupt. It didn't even dawn on me that if they are all made up, so too may be god.

So no I didn't ever buy Christianity 100% but I completely believed in god until someone pointed out what a stupid thing that is and they pointed out all the reasons why it is dumb and they had me listen to some great atheist debaters and I am not 100% convinced that organized religion's god(s) are completely made up.

As for if there is a god of any kind? One that "made us"? I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what if anything made us. But is it the fire and brimstone bible koran old testament adam smith god? Not a chance in hell.

I have never seen a litmus test on "beliefs" as a requisite for joining a Church or Synagogue. My unbearable "secular humanist" atheist in-laws STILL seek out a church for Sunday service simply because they like the DISCIPLINE of getting up on Sundays, dressing in their best clothes and schmoozing with folks socially.

It's the Ritual, Tradition, Discipline, and Charitable work that draws people in. Kids in Sunday School don't get graded on "depths of belief". And I used to teach Sunday School when I was in College.

They learn a bit a HUMILITY which is a commodity that "secular humanist atheists" totally lack. And they should learn that a little humility makes them much more socially adept.. It's on demonstration right in this thread. The claims to superiority are somewhat nauseating..

I dislike a lot about organized religion. BUT, I am glad to see my brother and his wife take my nephews to church.

This is one portion of religion that I feel a little guilty about when I say we don't need it and can do better. I do see religion does provide people with a sense of community and religion(s) do a lot of good. I know they are not all bad.

And really, I don't want to try to convince every theist that there probably is no god. I just want god to go back to where he belongs, in your heads. Keep him to yourself. If you and your neighbors like to go to church, groovy, but don't try to ban abortion because of your god, and I wish the politicians would stop using god to con you into voting against your own financial interests.

I think Reagan getting in bed with the Moral Majority did a lot towards turning me off on religion. Bush too. I think he used religion to lie us into Iraq. Then the right questioned if Obama was a Christian. Kennedy had to convince non Catholics he wouldn't take orders from the Vatican. Then that survey where people said they would rather vote for a cheating pot smoker over an atheist.

I think religion is a personal thing and shouldn't be used as a wedge issue. When they stop using religion as a political tool, I'll stop caring about your silly beliefs. You want the gays to go back in the closet? We want YOU to go back in the closet with your god. Ever have a Jehova come to your door? Then you know how annoying you are to us theists. How come you can see they are fos but you can't see you are too?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

That deserves a big ole Fuck You Delta 4.. My neighbors and their kids here in the Bible Buckle go down to Honduras and Guatemala et al every other year or so to build playgrounds, repair schools, distribute computers, etc. If you think this is ploy that doens't ENRICH THEM with the warmth of human compassion and understanding --- you just might be flailing for a more substantial life you cretin...

THAT's why I CHOOSE to live among these humble, disciplined people.. Because they LIVE good deeds and honest charitable works. Go to hell.. Even tho I personally might not believe in such a place..

Riiiight. And then after doing all those good works the missionaries don't ask for anything in return. How naive' you are. You think the missionaries who went to Uganda prior to Uganda passing all that anti-gay legislation didn't do lots of nice things for them first? Think they just showed up one day and asked for that legislation? Or do you think it came only after showing how 'generous' Christians are?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

This constant slamming of people of faith really pisses me off. There are more churches than fast food restaurants in Hillbilly Hollywood and the day after Katrina, EVERY major church parking lot had 18 wheel trailers in there loading supplies all with volunteer labor. They got those supplies to N'orlins before the Fed Govt even got their pants on. Which is good, because once the Feds got there -- they BLOCKED the delivery of aid that came from private sources. My churchy neighbors took more dislocated Katrina dislocated, than 100 acres of FEMA stinkin trailers.

Same deal with the outreach to Central America, my God-loving neighbors have done more for Latin Amer. kids than all of the grandstanding politicians, the Border Patrol or USAID.

To suggest that all this all this happens just to build a business, shows how alienated and isolated from humanity all you haters really are..

What haters? You're the one who can't express himself without profanity and personal attacks. Yeah, you're a swell ambassador for God's love aren't ya?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I have never seen a litmus test on "beliefs" as a requisite for joining a Church or Synagogue. My unbearable "secular humanist" atheist in-laws STILL seek out a church for Sunday service simply because they like the DISCIPLINE of getting up on Sundays, dressing in their best clothes and schmoozing with folks socially.

It's the Ritual, Tradition, Discipline, and Charitable work that draws people in. Kids in Sunday School don't get graded on "depths of belief". And I used to teach Sunday School when I was in College.

They learn a bit a HUMILITY which is a commodity that "secular humanist atheists" totally lack. And they should learn that a little humility makes them much more socially adept.. It's on demonstration right in this thread. The claims to superiority are somewhat nauseating..

Re: litmus test. Ever hear the term 'Recitation of faith' or excommunication?

 

[Capstone]

...How do we determine which sacred religious traditions should be considered the sort of behavior that "warrants state intervention"?

The same way we always have... Legislatively, followed by enforcement and the judicial process.

This ain't rocket science - fair and simple Civil Laws that ALWAYS trump Religious Laws (sacred or not).

So, in your view, since placing an infant's penis in one's mouth for reasons other than religious tradition IS currently illegal, the Jewish circumcision ritual of sucking the blood from the incision area should also be deemed illegal? If so, good luck with implementing the legislative and enforcement aspects of your view.

I hope you'll pardon the pun, but I don't agree that this issue is as cut and dry as you're trying to portray it.

Another poster has pointed out certain practices of other religious groups that are similarly problematic. There HAS to be a clearly defined set of equitable and unambiguous criteria for determining which 'behaviors' should be targeted for state intervention.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Know at least one instance where quite shockingly a religious tradition or practice is respected and permissable in law. Translation, it's permitting 1st cousins, and uncles and nieces to marry since Judaism considers that especially sacred and good:

Lazer Beams Marrying a Niece or Cousin

"Wednesday, 24 October 2012
Marrying a Niece or Cousin

Dear Rabbi Brody, am I allowed according to Halacha to marry my niece or my cousin? Would there be any medical or genetic dangers? Thank you, NK from the Great Neck area

Dear NK,

Your superb question is mentioned in the Gemara, tractate Yevamot, 62b, on the bottom of the page. Indeed, our sages both encourage and bless anyone that marries a niece. Rashi states that the Gemara is referring specifically to the daughter of a sister; since a man naturally loves his sister, says Rashi, he will have a special affection for a wife who is the daughter of his sister. The Tosephot argue as follows: Rabbenu Tam agrees with Rashi, and says that the mitzva is to marry the daughter of a sister specifically (more than a brother), because the daughter of a sister will bring her husband good fortune and sons who resemble the father. The Rashbam disagrees with Rashi and with Rabbenu Tam, and says that marrying the daughter of a brother is just as good a mitzva as marrying the daughter of a sister. The Rambam, in agreement with the rationale of the Rashbam stipulates (Hilchot Issure Beia, 2:14), that it's a "mitzvat khakhamim", a rabbinical ordnance, to marry a niece, whether she's the daughter of a sister or a brother. As far as practical Halacha goes, The Rama rules that Ikar HaDin (Principle Halacha) is, "It's a mitzva to marry the daughter of a sister", then adds, "There are those who say that it is also a mitzva to marry the daughter of a brother. (See Shulkhan Oruch, Even Ezer 2:6)." In other words, the Rama tends to agree with Rashi and Rabbenu Tam, but doesn't ignore the Rashbam.

As far as the second half of your question, the Melitzer Rebbe shlit'a in the name of his grandfather, the holy Shatzer Rov of blessed and saintly memory, that ever since Abraham married his niece Sarah, there has been a blessing among Jews for marrying nieces. Also, the Shatzer Rov wrote that the doctor's warnings about hemophilia and other genetic or medical flaws as in the case of the European monarchies does not apply to a family that observes halacha, most specifically, family purity and refraining from forbidden relations. In short, if you have a worthy niece, whether the daughter of a brother or a sister, you are allowed to marry her; not only that, but you will merit the blessings of our sages from the Gemara. In any event, I strongly urge to test for Tay-Sach's disease before you even begin approaching the prospective match.

As far as cousins go, the Shatzer Rov (see "Or Ganuz, parshat Mattot/Massaei) says that whenever the Torah says "good", according to esoteric tradition and the Arizal, there is an eternal blessing. Hashem told Moshe Rabbenu to tell the daughters of Tslophkhod to marry their cousins (see Bamidbar 36: 5-13), and the Torah says "tov" about it (ibid, verse 6). From here, the Shatzer Rov zatza"l says it's very good to marry a cousin. If it worked for Bnot Tslophkhod, it'll work for you. It's worth noting that quite a few of the Melitzer Rebbe's 12 children are happily married to cousins. It saves a lot of headaches in shidduchim, because you already know the family, the prospective soul mate, and there're much fewer surprises. Let me know the good news. With Blessings always, LB"

15-1-4

TITLE 15
Domestic Relations
CHAPTER 15-1
Persons Eligible to Marry
SECTION 15-1-4

§ 15-1-4 Marriages of kindred allowed by Jewish religion. – The provisions of §§ 15-1-2 and 15-1-3 shall not extend to, or in any way affect, any marriage which shall be solemnized among the Jewish people, within the degrees of affinity or consanguinity allowed by their religion.

History of Section.
(G.L. 1896, ch. 191, § 4; G.L. 1909, ch. 243, § 4; G.L. 1923, ch. 287, § 4; G.L. 1938, ch. 415, § 4; G.L. 1956, § 5-1-4; P.L. 2013, ch. 4, § 1; P.L. 2013, ch. 5, § 1.)

 

[flacaltenn]

That deserves a big ole Fuck You Delta 4.. My neighbors and their kids here in the Bible Buckle go down to Honduras and Guatemala et al every other year or so to build playgrounds, repair schools, distribute computers, etc. If you think this is ploy that doens't ENRICH THEM with the warmth of human compassion and understanding --- you just might be flailing for a more substantial life you cretin...

THAT's why I CHOOSE to live among these humble, disciplined people.. Because they LIVE good deeds and honest charitable works. Go to hell.. Even tho I personally might not believe in such a place..

Riiiight. And then after doing all those good works the missionaries don't ask for anything in return. How naive' you are. You think the missionaries who went to Uganda prior to Uganda passing all that anti-gay legislation didn't do lots of nice things for them first? Think they just showed up one day and asked for that legislation? Or do you think it came only after showing how 'generous' Christians are?

So you think my neighbors spent their time lobbying for some African tyrants to make laws? Nice fantasy. You probably invented that to validate your hate. Didnt you?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

So you think my neighbors spent their time lobbying for some African tyrants to make laws? Nice fantasy. You probably invented that to validate your hate. Didnt you?

Don't project your hate onto me, you're the one who seems upset.

 

[flacaltenn]

This constant slamming of people of faith really pisses me off. There are more churches than fast food restaurants in Hillbilly Hollywood and the day after Katrina, EVERY major church parking lot had 18 wheel trailers in there loading supplies all with volunteer labor. They got those supplies to N'orlins before the Fed Govt even got their pants on. Which is good, because once the Feds got there -- they BLOCKED the delivery of aid that came from private sources. My churchy neighbors took more dislocated Katrina dislocated, than 100 acres of FEMA stinkin trailers.

Same deal with the outreach to Central America, my God-loving neighbors have done more for Latin Amer. kids than all of the grandstanding politicians, the Border Patrol or USAID.

To suggest that all this all this happens just to build a business, shows how alienated and isolated from humanity all you haters really are..

What haters? You're the one who can't express himself without profanity and personal attacks. Yeah, you're a swell ambassador for God's love aren't ya?

That would be folks who equate religion with mental disease. Kind of like this OP. And then proceed to target CHRISTIANS, not jews or muslims for all of their failures to win arguments. Like abortion. Making a cogent case for aking abortion rare --- doesnt require a single reliance on the word of God. Wanna try it?

 

[flacaltenn]

This constant slamming of people of faith really pisses me off. There are more churches than fast food restaurants in Hillbilly Hollywood and the day after Katrina, EVERY major church parking lot had 18 wheel trailers in there loading supplies all with volunteer labor. They got those supplies to N'orlins before the Fed Govt even got their pants on. Which is good, because once the Feds got there -- they BLOCKED the delivery of aid that came from private sources. My churchy neighbors took more dislocated Katrina dislocated, than 100 acres of FEMA stinkin trailers.

Same deal with the outreach to Central America, my God-loving neighbors have done more for Latin Amer. kids than all of the grandstanding politicians, the Border Patrol or USAID.

To suggest that all this all this happens just to build a business, shows how alienated and isolated from humanity all you haters really are..

What haters? You're the one who can't express himself without profanity and personal attacks. Yeah, you're a swell ambassador for God's love aren't ya?

You should actually READ my posts. I havent been to services in my faith in about 15 years. So I am just playing for team of reason and fairness. Want to make a donation? I will personally bless you..

 

[Delta4Embassy]

That would be folks who equate religion with mental disease. Kind of like this OP. And then proceed to target CHRISTIANS, not jews or muslims for all of their failures to win arguments. Like abortion. Making a cogent case for aking abortion rare --- doesnt require a single reliance on the word of God. Wanna try it?

What other people have written is on them. I'm critical of my own religion as well, scroll up a few posts. Appeared about the same time as your's so you may have missed it.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

You should actually READ my posts. I havent been to services in my faith in about 15 years. So I am just playing for team of reason and fairness. Want to make a donation? I will personally bless you..

I don't generally bother once people start cussing. Kinda like trying to argue with your dog.

 

[flacaltenn]

...How do we determine which sacred religious traditions should be considered the sort of behavior that "warrants state intervention"?

The same way we always have... Legislatively, followed by enforcement and the judicial process.

This ain't rocket science - fair and simple Civil Laws that ALWAYS trump Religious Laws (sacred or not).

So, in your view, since placing an infant's penis in one's mouth for reasons other than religious tradition IS currently illegal, the Jewish circumcision ritual of sucking the blood from the incision area should also be deemed illegal? If so, good luck with implementing the legislative and enforcement aspects of your view.

I hope you'll pardon the pun, but I don't agree that this issue is as cut and dry as you're trying to portray it.

Another poster has pointed out certain practices of other religious groups that are similarly problematic. There HAS to be a clearly defined set of equitable and unambiguous criteria for determining which 'behaviors' should be targeted for state intervention.

That practice is EXTREMELY rare and closeted. Couldnt find one of those outside of 10 cities in the county. There IS a health risk involved. What major motivation is there for you to DEMAND legislation? Other than its a good thing to bring up anytime the topic is ""how religious practice is annoying to me""..,