Why aren't theists considered mentally ill?

[Youch]

The vast majority of humankind, now and since ever since, has religious belief. And you describe them has having a mental disorder.

I find the psychological study of superiority complexes and self-loathing to be far more interesting.

Vast majority of human kind once maintained the world was flat too, and they were wrong. 'Accepted truths' can change with time and science. Everyone used to think epilepsy was possession by demons, they too were wrong. As science continues to evolve, and religion remains static and stagnant, the 'truths' of reliigon are being chipped away. Eventually science will be able to conclusively prove ALL reliigous truths are false. Then what will religious people do? Round up all the scientists and execute them?

That story is a myth. I believe that has been pointed out to you before and it would take little investigation to realize it. I wonder why you continue to believe it?

Ideologues are akin to religiosity. Facts matter naught. It is the belief.

 

[PratchettFan]

The vast majority of humans believe in some sort of god. Belief is clearly a natural state for us, so it is absurd to suggest normal mental activity is an illness.

However, what about someone who is fixated on what they claim does not exist? Perhaps a little couch time is called for.

Your argument's opening a can of worms re: what's 'normal?'

According to estimates, 20 million Americans suffer a mental illness called clinical depression. There's only 14 million Jews on the entire planet. So is being clinically depressed more 'normal' than being Jewish? Or is the fact that a lot of people suffer an abnormal neurological function simply a treatable condition?

Religious beliefs are indeed part of human nature. But specific beliefs are not as they come and go as religions do. We've been doing human burial longer than any other reliigous observance, long before we started wriitng religions down. But claiming 'this sends you to hell' or 'your beloved family member is in hell for doing this' is overly specific and not something that can be chalked up to 'normal behaviour.' That's more inline with a mental illness causing very specific, and unfounded beliefs.

I'm sure quite a few of us have cancer and suffer from colds. You cite an irrelevant statistic. It does not extend to calling a particular belief a mental illness. All you are saying is they don't believe what you believe, so there must be something wrong with them. This does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you exactly like them.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I'm sure quite a few of us have cancer and suffer from colds. You cite an irrelevant statistic. It does not extend to calling a particular belief a mental illness. All you are saying is they don't believe what you believe, so there must be something wrong with them. This does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you exactly like them.

The arguements included many people hold religious beliefs therefore religious beliefs are normal. Thus the 20 million figure of a recognized mental illness is completely relevant re: many people with a mental illness doesn't make it normal to have it. Ergo, just because many people are religious, that too doesn't make it normal, just pandemic in scope.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Hey, Delta, by "the propaganda of superstition", I was referring to the cultural bias that's been in play in certain medical circles here in the United States for far too long. The influence of "religion" has been part of it alright, but only indirectly.



That's exactly the kind of propaganda I was talking about.

Thankfully, the tide has been turning on that bullshit since the middle 70's.

In a fairly recent Wall Street Journal article, Dr. Ron Goldman explained why:



In case you're interested (don't worry, I know you're probably not), having shed considerable doubt on the reasoning of some "American-based groups" for promoting the alleged pros, Dr. Goldman went on to highlight the non-controversial cons, which you could read for yourself at the linked site.



Two Things:

First, the antics of anti-Semites are irrelevant to the question as to whether the practice of medically unnecessary circumcision (faith-based or not) should be deemed harmful/illegal by "the state".

Secondly, appendectomies and tonsillectomies aren't routinely performed on infants (or adults) as preventative measures against the potential problems of the future.

Unfortunately for you I read much more critically than you seem to,

"Thirty-eight leading physicians from Europe, Canada and Australia say that some American doctors support circumcision because of cultural bias, and that the claimed health benefits are either questionable or too weak to justify surgery on boys before they are old enough to provide consent."

38 say? Wow, and how many physicians are there in those cited countries? Hanging your hat on '38 say' is like saying climate change isn't happening because 1.5% of climate scientists say so.

 

[Capstone]

I'm sure quite a few of us have cancer and suffer from colds. You cite an irrelevant statistic. It does not extend to calling a particular belief a mental illness. All you are saying is they don't believe what you believe, so there must be something wrong with them. This does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you exactly like them.

Not only was the stat irrelevant; it failed to account for any clinically depressed Jewish-Americans among the 20 million. Meanwhile, studies suggest there may be more than their fair share in that group.

[. . .] RESULTS: While no differences were found among females, Jewish males had significantly higher rates of major depression than Catholics, Protestants, and all non-Jews combined. Jews had a 1:1 female-to-male ratio for major depression, in contrast to the other religious groups, which approached the universal 2:1 ratio. Rates of alcohol abuse/dependence were inversely related to rates of major depression. ...

I've noticed that Delta tends to cite statistics in misleading ways, and that he doesn't get called on it often enough.

 

[hobelim]

The prophets spoke of the need for people to circumcise the foreskin of their heart/ mind, which would represent the evil inclination.

The subject doesn't have to be any more complicated than the subject of the super ego overruling the id.

If there is a God then the command to circumcise most likely is not about mutilating male penises as a sign of dedication to God. If it was who is intended to see this sign? Everyone? There is no benefit to being circumcised except the girls seem to prefer it.

Wouldn't a more rational sign of dedication to God be in the civilized behavior of a person self ruled by conscience?

(suffers "Forbbiden Planet" flashback)

Id? Wow, that's an old term. Freudian are ya?

Forbidden Planet referenced Jung's theory.

But no, I am not a freudian. I was just showing a possible purpose for the law of circumcision that has nothing whatever to do with mutilating the penises of infants but everything to do with overcoming what Freud described as the ID and others call the evil inclination of the mind.



there may be a bit of bronze age Hebrew humor in there somewhere.

A person can cut the flesh of the foreskin of their own penis and still be in violation of the command and remain an uncircumcised dickhead.... with an infected foreskin oozing a foul and smelly discharge..

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm sure quite a few of us have cancer and suffer from colds. You cite an irrelevant statistic. It does not extend to calling a particular belief a mental illness. All you are saying is they don't believe what you believe, so there must be something wrong with them. This does not make you mentally ill, it just makes you exactly like them.

The arguements included many people hold religious beliefs therefore religious beliefs are normal. Thus the 20 million figure of a recognized mental illness is completely relevant re: many people with a mental illness doesn't make it normal to have it. Ergo, just because many people are religious, that too doesn't make it normal, just pandemic in scope.

You are certainly bending your point into a pretzel to try and make it fit. You have failed. 20 million is about 6% of the population. While about 84% of the population identifies as religious. Being religious is normal. Believing is normal. You should feel good about that because you most certainly fall into the normal group.

 

[Capstone]

Unfortunately for you I read much more critically than you seem to,...

Apparently not.

"Thirty-eight leading physicians from Europe, Canada and Australia say that some American doctors support circumcision because of cultural bias, and that the claimed health benefits are either questionable or too weak to justify surgery on boys before they are old enough to provide consent."

38 say? Wow, and how many physicians are there in those cited countries? Hanging your hat on '38 say' is like saying climate change isn't happening because 1.5% of climate scientists say so.

There's a major difference between "38 say" and "38 leading physicians say". Had you read more critically or done the tiniest bit of research as to what it takes to be cited as a "leading physician", you might have discovered that.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Apparently not.


There's a major difference between "38 say" and "38 leading physicians say". Had you read more critically or done the tiniest bit of research as to what it takes to be cited as a "leading physician", you might have discovered that.

Wow are you desperate to hang on to 38 people who agree with you. Ok then, show me the link to whatever metric or physicians leaderboard that establishes their 'leading physicians.' Take your time.

 

[Capstone]

Wow are you desperate to hang on to 38 people who agree with you. Ok then, show me the link to whatever metric or physicians leaderboard that establishes their 'leading physicians.' Take your time.

Look it up yourself, Dickweed. I'm not doing your homework for you.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Look it up yourself, Dickweed. I'm not doing your homework for you.

(gestures like Vanna White)

See how he can't back up his claims.

When I'm challenged on a fact I can cite the source. When you're challenged your shrivel like an old man in a warm bath for too long.

 

[Capstone]

Look it up yourself, Dickweed. I'm not doing your homework for you.

(gestures like Vanna White)

See how he can't back up his claims.

When I'm challenged on a fact I can cite the source. When you're challenged your shrivel like an old man in a warm bath for too long.

That kind of psychological ploy doesn't work on me, Delta.

Anyone following the discourse between you and I can see the quality of our respective posts.

Now go do your homework, or STFU.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Specificly, suffering from delusional disorder? Reading up on it for another thread, the description sounded awfully familar.

"Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted."

Perhaps delusional disorders should be ignored unless and until BEHAVIOR warrants state intervention.


EVERYbody has the same right to be wrong. The ancient stories of creation by the God of Abraham can no more be disproved than can the theories of evolution or any other creation stories Monkeys believe in.

If Christians, Muslims and Jews are deluded, the same can be said for believers in Evolution and The Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Perhaps delusional disorders should be ignored unless and until BEHAVIOR warrants state intervention.

Firstly, it is that solely reactionary thinking when it comes to mental disorders that leads to so many tragic cases of people with such disorders falling through the cracks and causing harm to themselves and others. The system SHOULD step in before it's too late and BEFORE that person's "behavior warrants state intervention"

Second, people don't actually worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the argument that God can't be disproven any more than evolution is a crappy one. A negative cannot be disproven 100% but that is no reason to believe in it. I cannot prove to a degree of 100% certainty that unicorns don't exist but I have no reason to think they do, so I don't. Were anyone to claim that they saw one, the burden would be on them to prove it, not on me to disprove it. That burden becomes even greater if they start making claims that they "speak with the unicorn" and that "the unicorn hates fags" and says that "we shouldn't let them get married" for example. You are now asking the rest of us to live OUR lives in accordance to something YOU claim is true but cannot verify for the rest of us.

If you claim something is real or true then you must provide evidence for it. Evolution does this. Religion does not.

Additionally, there are large swaths of the Bible that CAN and HAVE been shown to be false after historical, archaeological and other scientific study.

 

[PratchettFan]

Specificly, suffering from delusional disorder? Reading up on it for another thread, the description sounded awfully familar.

"Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted."

Perhaps delusional disorders should be ignored unless and until BEHAVIOR warrants state intervention.


EVERYbody has the same right to be wrong. The ancient stories of creation by the God of Abraham can no more be disproved than can the theories of evolution or any other creation stories Monkeys believe in.

If Christians, Muslims and Jews are deluded, the same can be said for believers in Evolution and The Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Perhaps delusional disorders should be ignored unless and until BEHAVIOR warrants state intervention.

Firstly, it is that solely reactionary thinking when it comes to mental disorders that leads to so many tragic cases of people with such disorders falling through the cracks and causing harm to themselves and others. The system SHOULD step in before it's too late and BEFORE that person's "behavior warrants state intervention"

Second, people don't actually worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the argument that God can't be disproven any more than evolution is a crappy one. A negative cannot be disproven 100% but that is no reason to believe in it. I cannot prove to a degree of 100% certainty that unicorns don't exist but I have no reason to think they do, so I don't. Were anyone to claim that they saw one, the burden would be on them to prove it, not on me to disprove it. That burden becomes even greater if they start making claims that they "speak with the unicorn" and that "the unicorn hates fags" and says that "we shouldn't let them get married" for example. You are now asking the rest of us to live OUR lives in accordance to something YOU claim is true but cannot verify for the rest of us.

If you claim something is real or true then you must provide evidence for it. Evolution does this. Religion does not.

Additionally, there are large swaths of the Bible that CAN and HAVE been shown to be false after historical, archaeological and other scientific study.

A negative most certainly can be disproven, at least if we aren't using "proof" as an absolute. I can demonstrate with reasonable certainty there is not another earthlike planet on the same orbit as earth but always on the other side of the sun where we can't see it. That is because we understand how large bodies affect other bodies and we can determine it does not exist because other bodies do not act in the manner we would expect them to act if it did.

The problem with God is there is no evidence at all. We don't even know what evidence we would expect to see if God existed. Therefore taking the position God does not exist is no different than taking the position it does.

If you claim something is unreal or false, then you must provide evidence for it.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

A negative most certainly can be disproven, at least if we aren't using "proof" as an absolute. I can demonstrate with reasonable certainty there is not another earthlike planet on the same orbit as earth but always on the other side of the sun where we can't see it. That is because we understand how large bodies affect other bodies and we can determine it does not exist because other bodies do not act in the manner we would expect them to act if it did.

The problem with God is there is no evidence at all. We don't even know what evidence we would expect to see if God existed. Therefore taking the position God does not exist is no different than taking the position it does.

If you claim something is unreal or false, then you must provide evidence for it.

The Force is strong in this one.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

That kind of psychological ploy doesn't work on me, Delta.

Anyone following the discourse between you and I can see the quality of our respective posts.

Now go do your homework, or STFU.

It already had when you resorted to calling someone names - you lose, twas ever thus.

 

[Bfgrn]

And your degree in science is from where? In which field?

Never claimed to have a degree. Merely stated as a beahvioural scientist with an interest in criminal justice I spend a lot of time thinking about these things (in the original thread.) You need to learn to read more carefully.

All warfare is based upon deception. - Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"

Well here are some links...

The Ideological Animal Psychology Today

Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition - A Summary

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources_files/ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf

And your degree in science is from where? In which field?
.

Non sequitur...

The linked articles are from studies done by renowned psychologists.

 

[PratchettFan]

A negative most certainly can be disproven, at least if we aren't using "proof" as an absolute. I can demonstrate with reasonable certainty there is not another earthlike planet on the same orbit as earth but always on the other side of the sun where we can't see it. That is because we understand how large bodies affect other bodies and we can determine it does not exist because other bodies do not act in the manner we would expect them to act if it did.

The problem with God is there is no evidence at all. We don't even know what evidence we would expect to see if God existed. Therefore taking the position God does not exist is no different than taking the position it does.

If you claim something is unreal or false, then you must provide evidence for it.

The Force is strong in this one.

Indeed it is.

 

[Toro]

Edit.

 

[sealybobo]

The vast majority of humans believe in some sort of god. Belief is clearly a natural state for us, so it is absurd to suggest normal mental activity is an illness.

However, what about someone who is fixated on what they claim does not exist? Perhaps a little couch time is called for.

Specificly, suffering from delusional disorder? Reading up on it for another thread, the description sounded awfully familar.

"Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted."

They've been brainwashed. Repeat this every day for 2000 years

The Apostles Creed
"I believe in God almighty [the Father almighty]
And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
Who was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary
Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
And the third day rose from the dead
Who ascended into heaven
And sits on the right hand of the Father
Whence he comes to judge the living and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost
The holy [universal] church
The remission of sins
The resurrection of the flesh
The life everlasting."

Creeds of this kind were helpful in giving a short summary of the basic essentials of Christianity, and were brief enough to be easily committed to memory.