Why are conservatives losing?!?!?

[Dr.Traveler]

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly. That was the very first thing which tipped me off to ObamaCare being a con when I read the first draft: The fact it more deeply embedded ESHI.

ESHI allows for collective negotiation for insurance rates. Individuals are too easily steamrolled in negotiations. Try sometime taking an insurer to court on your own. You'll be good and dead before you even get a hearing. I've looked at buying my own coverage versus going with ESHI and even if I could negotiate the company to give me a dollar for dollar raise for the part of their contribution, I'd be on the losing side of that exchange.

ESHI isn't going anywhere until we have a single payer system. Which is part of why we will end up there. Eventually the corporations will want to be rid of ESHI and the employees won't be able to afford it. Once that happens, the political pressure will simply be too much to avoid it any longer.

 

[alang1216]

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly.

No it is unions and employers joining together to utilize a tax loophole for their mutual benefit at the expense of taxpayers. Worked well until HC costs went through the roof. I agree that it is a bad idea.

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't see the compassion towards children in continuing policies that rewards unwed teenagers from getting more money for each fatherless child they produce.

I understand that you don't see the need for compassion. Sad.

It's not even compassion. It's enlightened self- interest. Third World countries are dangerous, not because the people are violent or ignorant, but because they have so little, and they're trying to survive. American ghettos are unsafe because people have so little, including little to lose. And then you wonder why areas of extreme poverty are crime-ridden, and frequently explode into violence. You see these outbreaks as proof positive that blacks are less than whites. History shows them as behaving exactly as the poor and the marginalized have always behaved.

Take the poor Irish in Boston - ignorant, crime ridden, ghetto-ized, and voilent. Whitey Bulger is a prime example. Now Irish are fully assimilated and a brogue is charming. Or the Italians in New York - the Mafia and the Cosa Nostra. Italian neighbourhoods were crime ridden and infested with gangs, just like black neighborhoods today.

Your Welfare Queen is an urban myth. Single unwed teenage mothers on welfare have, on average, fewer than 2 children, IOW's, most have one, and some have two, mostly because the amount received isn't enough to care for one child, and the increase in welfare received isn't enough to provide for the second child. You're worse off on welfare with two children than you are with one, and less likely to be able to afford child care when you find a job. This is why most poor women get abortions if they get pregnant again.

 

[bendog]

(1) Healthcare: I get it single payer and government run health insurance we 'hear' is a disaster, yet European countries will not do away with it any time soon. However you never get a plan other than status quo. I hear the sell across state lines bullshit, but those insurers have to follow state law and I guarantee this added competition wouldn't change a thing, but it is a great talking point.

Auto insurance, life insurance, and home insurance are sold across state lines. So your argument is exploded by reality.

You should be buying your health insurance the exact same way you buy your auto, life, and home insurance.

Yeah, it was just that the gop was forced to use that truth to push policy that effectively cut the pay of those getting HC insurance as a benefit.

Employer-sponsored health insurance (ESHI) needs to go away. It bends the cost curve up, and it costs taxpayers tens of billions of dollars a year.

ESHI holds you hostage. It's a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. You have no real choice. You have ZERO leverage.

And yet when I want to buy auto insurance, I can call any auto insurance company in the country I wish. This gives me MAXIMUM bargaining leverage.

No debate as to market efficiency in a market based system. But the fact remains that ESHI has been a bargaining chip for over 50 years now. If a party wants to blow that up, and shift all the cost to workers .... people are not going to elect the party.

Do you consider the fact that you buy your own auto insurance as your employer "shifting all cost to the workers" for auto insurance?

You have become way too used to being a hostage. Stockholm Syndrome.

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly. That was the very first thing which tipped me off to ObamaCare being a con when I read the first draft: The fact it more deeply embedded ESHI.

Oh stop being obtuse and insulting. People have effectively been getting paid more their entire working lives because of employer sponsored. If you want to stick your head in the sand (-: over that, have at it.

But the reality is that no matter what HC system we have, it cannot ever be fully funded without tax dollars. We will always have to subsize lower income workers and the retired.

 

[bendog]

I don't see the compassion towards children in continuing policies that rewards unwed teenagers from getting more money for each fatherless child they produce.

I understand that you don't see the need for compassion. Sad.

It's not even compassion. It's enlightened self- interest. Third World countries are dangerous, not because the people are violent or ignorant, but because they have so little, and they're trying to survive. American ghettos are unsafe because people have so little, including little to lose. And then you wonder why areas of extreme poverty are crime-ridden, and frequently explode into violence. You see these outbreaks as proof positive that blacks are less than whites. History shows them as behaving exactly as the poor and the marginalized have always behaved.

Take the poor Irish in Boston - ignorant, crime ridden, ghetto-ized, and voilent. Whitey Bulger is a prime example. Now Irish are fully assimilated and a brogue is charming. Or the Italians in New York - the Mafia and the Cosa Nostra. Italian neighbourhoods were crime ridden and infested with gangs, just like black neighborhoods today.

Your Welfare Queen is an urban myth. Single unwed teenage mothers on welfare have, on average, fewer than 2 children, IOW's, most have one, and some have two, mostly because the amount received isn't enough to care for one child, and the increase in welfare received isn't enough to provide for the second child. You're worse off on welfare with two children than you are with one, and less likely to be able to afford child care when you find a job. This is why most poor women get abortions if they get pregnant again.

One genius of our American experiment is that we benefit society at large by appealing to individuals's self-interest. For example, an ideal in society is "self-reliance." Daniel Boone. Horatio Alger. The fact is that Obama was not entirely without truth in saying "none of us really built that by ourselves." But, by giving people who are seen as self-reliant more stature than those seen as less self-reliant, we have encouraged a socially beneficial trait.

The Calvinists did something similar with pre-destination. While it may be that only a few were pre-ordained to be saved and go to heaven, everyone wanted their neighbors to think he or she was one of the saved.

 

[Iceweasel]

Yeah, I think issue (1) is inevitable and it's a losing issue for the GOP. No one wants to go back to pre-Obamacare

Most people still don't want it so the rest of your post isn't worth reading.

Pre-Obamacare sucked. Obamacare sucks. The GOP doesn't have a plan other than Pre-Obamacare. I don't see avoiding a single payer system for long especially when most other first world nations manage it.

Those that could afford to do so got treatment here. The GOP has harped for many years about it, tort reform would be a huge step. Medicine practices law suit prevention above all else.

I guess the left's plan is to fuck things up so bad only government can pick up the pieces.

 

[PredFan]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

How are you that stupid and still able to use technology to broadcast your stupidity?

And how did they get control of the House and Senate - Gerrymandering. Now that the SC has ruled that voters can petition to have districts drawn by geography, and that voters get to choose the candidate, not the other way around, we'll see how many seats Republicans hold by the end of the 2018 elections.

If you can't see that the Republican Party is totally fractured and is not going back together again any time soon, you are too stupid to be one person.

Moron. Nobody gerrymanders more than the democrats. The GOP is fractured but that is irrelevant to our discussion.

 

[PredFan]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

Michigan has a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and a Republican governor. Woo hoo!

How's that working out for Detroit?

That's irrelevant and otherwise too stupid to respond to.

 

[bendog]

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly. That was the very first thing which tipped me off to ObamaCare being a con when I read the first draft: The fact it more deeply embedded ESHI.

ESHI allows for collective negotiation for insurance rates. Individuals are too easily steamrolled in negotiations. Try sometime taking an insurer to court on your own. You'll be good and dead before you even get a hearing. I've looked at buying my own coverage versus going with ESHI and even if I could negotiate the company to give me a dollar for dollar raise for the part of their contribution, I'd be on the losing side of that exchange.

ESHI isn't going anywhere until we have a single payer system. Which is part of why we will end up there. Eventually the corporations will want to be rid of ESHI and the employees won't be able to afford it. Once that happens, the political pressure will simply be too much to avoid it any longer.

Or we could figure out how much money corporations save by the ESHI tax savings, collect that money from corporations or shareholders, and use it so every worker or dependent can access wellness care though a personal tax credit ... and let them shop for where they get that care.

That was basically a gop idea. Use tax policy to get the most into a market based system. But I agree, the gop lost the debate (actually they chose to support the status quo that benefited the 1%) and we are on the way to single payer.

 

[PredFan]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

How are you that stupid and still able to use technology to broadcast your stupidity?

Who hasn't passed a single major piece of legislation advancing the conservative agenda in years? Oh right, the GOP.

Irrelevant. The OP said we were losing and have been. I proved it wrong. Fact.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I think the thread is useful because it looks at why the gop has lost the popular vote in five of the last six potus elections.

Lol, talk about cherry picking data.

And how about all the off year elections the Democrats get smeared in, or all the state level offices, congresses and governors? The Republicans have won at EVERYTHING except hte POTUS because the GOP elites are too crooked to let the people speak and have the kind of POTUS nominee that they want, until Trump that is.

Yeah, thats really winning Einstein.

Trump is an entirely different story. The fact is that if you had a goper and a dem with exactly the same negative rating, but in the 20's rather than 50%plus, the gop would still be less likely to win. Trump may be useful to the gop in the longterm, because his not evenly disguised appeal to racists, is forcing some debate on not just why a whites's only party is a losing strategy but also an anti-American one.

The GOP is not a whites only party.

Take a look at the presidential candidates for this year on both parties and tell me who the racists are.

Democrats are happy to let blacks and Hispanics vote for them as long as they dont get too uppity.

But, the gop will not become the truly maj party just by saying "we love our latinos and blacks." The gop has to be seen as the party that will improve their lives.

Yeah, like the Democratic ward system has improved the lives of Hispanics and urban blacks?

roflmao

 

[bendog]

I think the thread is useful because it looks at why the gop has lost the popular vote in five of the last six potus elections.

Lol, talk about cherry picking data.

And how about all the off year elections the Democrats get smeared in, or all the state level offices, congresses and governors? The Republicans have won at EVERYTHING except hte POTUS because the GOP elites are too crooked to let the people speak and have the kind of POTUS nominee that they want, until Trump that is.

Yeah, thats really winning Einstein.

Trump is an entirely different story. The fact is that if you had a goper and a dem with exactly the same negative rating, but in the 20's rather than 50%plus, the gop would still be less likely to win. Trump may be useful to the gop in the longterm, because his not evenly disguised appeal to racists, is forcing some debate on not just why a whites's only party is a losing strategy but also an anti-American one.

The GOP is not a whites only party.

Take a look at the presidential candidates for this year on both parties and tell me who the racists are.

Democrats are happy to let blacks and Hispanics vote for them as long as they dont get too uppity.

But, the gop will not become the truly maj party just by saying "we love our latinos and blacks." The gop has to be seen as the party that will improve their lives.

Yeah, like the Democratic ward system has improved the lives of Hispanics and urban blacks?

roflmao

View attachment 87481

Trump is the candidate of the Alt Right racists, and the gop will take less minority vote than ever before. Go sit on your fist.

However, racism itself doesn't explain why the gop has lost 5 out of 6 general elections.

 

[g5000]

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly. That was the very first thing which tipped me off to ObamaCare being a con when I read the first draft: The fact it more deeply embedded ESHI.

ESHI allows for collective negotiation for insurance rates. Individuals are too easily steamrolled in negotiations.

Are you steamrolled when you negotiate your auto insurance? No. That is because you have maximum leverage due to the fact you have a huge menu of auto insurance companies from which to choose.

Not so with ESHI. You have ZERO leverage with ESHI.

A small employer has no bargaining leverage against an insurance company, either. None at all. And if one person in a small company runs up large medical bills, EVERYONE in that company gets a substantial premium hike.

The employee is hostage to the ESHI offered by his/her employer, and the employer is hostage to the insurance company. The insurance company, in turn, is hostage to the medical provider since they are geographically limited.

You would be far better off being able to buy your health insurance the same way you buy your home, auto, and life insurance.

Try sometime taking an insurer to court on your own. You'll be good and dead before you even get a hearing.

That risk is the same with auto, home, and life insurance.

 

[g5000]

ESHI isn't going anywhere until we have a single payer system.

This is true, but not for the reasons you think.

What is the single biggest difference between health insurance and every other insurance you buy?

The difference is the government is the biggest player in the health insurance market. Even worse, it gets to write the rules for its competitors! How's that working out?

And yet the dumb shits keep crying out for more and more and more government intervention in the market. We are moving in the exact opposite direction we should be moving.

So, yeah. It is inevitable we will end up with single payer. We were sold down that river by the Republicans decades ago. All their howling and gnashing of teeth over ObamaCare is theater for the rubes.

 

[bendog]

ESHI is a labor union boondoggle that is damaging us badly. That was the very first thing which tipped me off to ObamaCare being a con when I read the first draft: The fact it more deeply embedded ESHI.

ESHI allows for collective negotiation for insurance rates. Individuals are too easily steamrolled in negotiations.

Are you steamrolled when you negotiate your auto insurance? No. That is because you have maximum leverage due to the fact you have a huge menu of auto insurance companies from which to choose.

Not so with EHSI. You have ZERO leverage with EHSI.

A small employer has no bargaining leverage against an insurance company, either. None at all. And if one person in a small company runs up large medical bills, EVERYONE in that company gets a substantial premium hike.

The employee is hostage to the ESHI offered by his/her employer, and the employer is hostage to the insurance company. The insurance company, in turn, is hostage to the medical provider since they are geographically limited.

Try sometime taking an insurer to court on your own. You'll be good and dead before you even get a hearing.

That risk is the same with auto, home, and life insurance.

Also, it's not like auto insurance is unregulated. State's require minimum coverage, and insurers must register and meet standards.

I don't think it's a direct analogy, because the feds are impossibly intertwined with how the market is funded, and healthcare standards are pretty much federally set both by the AMA and Medicare.

But what is undeniably broken is this: the system is supposed to work in a market whereby providers start out with a base price of what medicare/Medicaid pay for given procedure/product/service. Insurance companies with large market share attempt to bargain down the price in exchange for providing a large number of insured patients to providers.

THAT is basically what is not working. Single payer is based on the same model. The govt can just keep cutting and cutting reimbursement levels until providers would prefer to go out of the market all together than to accept the reimbursement level. That works in some societies. In the HC debate, it was pointed out that in Taiwan, for example, hospitals basically always run deficits. I don't know that that is true now.

But, I think the challenge for the gop both politically and policy wise is twofold: 1) how to we retain the tax dollars that go to subsidizing ESHI, while also maximizing individuals exercise consumer choice in selecting what HC to consume, and 2) how do we continue to care for those who are incapable of exercising consumer choice.

I realize you would want to sever #1 entirely on the possibly correct belief that any govt interference in the market harms efficiency and lower cost. However, the gop pretty much lost that debate in the 1980s.

 

[JoeNormal]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

How are you that stupid and still able to use technology to broadcast your stupidity?

And how did they get control of the House and Senate - Gerrymandering. Now that the SC has ruled that voters can petition to have districts drawn by geography, and that voters get to choose the candidate, not the other way around, we'll see how many seats Republicans hold by the end of the 2018 elections.

If you can't see that the Republican Party is totally fractured and is not going back together again any time soon, you are too stupid to be one person.

Moron. Nobody gerrymanders more than the democrats. The GOP is fractured but that is irrelevant to our discussion.

Bullshit. I'm sure you'll dispute this because it comes from a prestigious university rather than the hacks at Fox News but Republicans gerrymander way more than Democrats.

Gerrymanders, Part 1: Busting the both-sides-do-it myth

 

[g5000]

View attachment 87481

I love it when the rubes who copy and paste graphics made especially for tards paste one that has improper English usage in it. It's like pasting a "KICK ME" sign on your own back.

I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about. Which makes it even better.

As for Detroit, I guess the Republican House, and the Republican Senate, and the Republican Governor of Michigan have no responsibility for what happened to their largest city, eh?

"It's just negroes. Ignore them!"

 

[NYcarbineer]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

How are you that stupid and still able to use technology to broadcast your stupidity?

Who hasn't passed a single major piece of legislation advancing the conservative agenda in years? Oh right, the GOP.

Irrelevant. The OP said we were losing and have been. I proved it wrong. Fact.

You lost on same sex marriage. You lost on healthcare. You lost on gays in the military. You lost on abortion. You lost on tax cuts for the rich.

 

[owebo]

Hey clueless hack!

Who has control of the House and Senate? Who has the most state governors?

How are you that stupid and still able to use technology to broadcast your stupidity?

Who hasn't passed a single major piece of legislation advancing the conservative agenda in years? Oh right, the GOP.

Irrelevant. The OP said we were losing and have been. I proved it wrong. Fact.

You lost on same sex marriage. You lost on healthcare. You lost on gays in the military. You lost on abortion. You lost on tax cuts for the rich.

Huh? We haven't even begun to fight my little fascist friend....

 

[Boss]

They still have a strong base, but they can't compete in the long run.

It comes down to 4 issues that turn the middle on them:
(1) Healthcare: I get it single payer and government run health insurance we 'hear' is a disaster, yet European countries will not do away with it any time soon. However you never get a plan other than status quo. I hear the sell across state lines bullshit, but those insurers have to follow state law and I guarantee this added competition wouldn't change a thing, but it is a great talking point. Second you hear health savings accounts. Which are already hear and while good aren't even close to the answer. Obaminationcare is bad but it at least go rid of the insurer practice of pre-existing condition riders (meaning once your sick no one would insure you), drop you after you get sick and skyrocket rates after you get sick. Obaminationcare is bad, but status quo was horrible also. Conservatives lose many middle class voters on this issue, because they never present any real plan.

(2) Abortion: You used to be able to hold the stance, ban on later term abortions and no abortions after 1 trimester except for rape, incest or mother's life is in danger. Now during the primaries the only acceptable stance is "no abortion, no exceptions. Not for rape or incest victims, not if the fetus has birth defects, not for teenagers and some won't even allow if the mother's life is in danger. Sorry but this turns off many independents and women.

(3) Higher Education: Most jobs require a college degree. The few that don't are lower paying and in shrinking industries, such as manufacturing. The fact of the matter is higher education cost upwards of $120k. Young people start their lives in a boatload of debt. These are voters who hear one side at least talk about trying to forgive debt, help pay for it and lower rates.

Then you have the GOP who complain about what the colleges charge and basically stop there. They wouldn't pass the bill to lower interest rates. While there are good arguments why they did that. Voters with student loan debt only saw that republicans voted against saving students money.

As Republicans continue to lose on this issue, they continue to create New Democrats.

(4) Gun control: Every mass shooting you hear, don't blame guns blame the perpetrators. True on many cases, but in reality many in the middle want a balance between gun ownership and safety.

Until Republicans start finding a way to solve these issues for the masses they won't compete I the swing states and further red states will turn blue like VA, CO and NV. Right now the only way for Trump to win is if he turns 1 of 2 left leaning state (PA or MI) and wins FL or OH.

Blast me if you want, but these are the 4 issues that the GOP needs to get serious about if they don't want to go the way of the Whigs.

Well, you are a progressive moron so it doesn't really matter much what you think Conservatives or the GOP should do. It's like getting dating advice from a computer geek.

The first error in your thinking is that you seem to be lumping together the Republican party, the GOP elite and Conservatives all together as if they are one entity. I don't know what has to be done to get you straightened out on this, Conservatives are very vocal and present their case all the time. We've just spent months going through a primary season where several Conservatives presented their game plans and the party ended up nominating a populist-nationalist.

Conservatives, because they are philosophically conservative, have a myriad of individual ideologies. These can range in contrast from each other and they lack a unifying voice to bring them all together. So what happens is, several conservatives present their personal view and the Conservatives split their votes. As much of a bad deal this election cycle was for Conservatives it will bring about a unification and coalescence behind a single voice in the future. In that regard, it might turn out to be a good thing for Conservatives in the long run, if we can survive a few more years of Marxist rule.

Now... the GOP elite are dead in the water. They have no core principles and stand for nothing. So the Republican party has now been hijacked by radical populist-nationalists who will inevitably destroy the party. Looking at what the Republican party has done the past decade means little to nothing with regard to Conservatives. They have been anything BUT Conservative.

Here are all your issues in a nutshell from the true Conservative standpoint... Go fuck yourself! We don't need the government telling us what to do. We don't need the government taking care of us. Get the fuck out of our way and out of our lives and let us be free. Just leave us the hell alone. The more you do, the more you fuck up. The more government you give us the less freedom we have. The more free shit you give us, the more we are enslaved. So just fuck the hell off!