Who REALLY has Apartheid?

[abu afak]

`

photo: freedomhouse.org

Saudi Arabia


The Church in Saudi Arabia is living under the most difficult circumstances. The regime has declared the entire Arabian peninsula 'Haram,' forbidden to all other religions, and it is enforcing this prohibition strictly.

Freedom of religion does not exist. The Government prohibits the practice of other religions, be it in Public or in Private.
Saudi law states that no churches may be built north of Yemen and south of Jordan.

It is impossible for foreigners to visit Saudi Arabia as tourists. One can only enter the kingdom on business visa (i.e. on the invitation of a company already active in the country), or as a Muslim pilgrim.
The survey of problems and needs of the Church in Saudi Arabia is completely determined by the total prohibition of any religion but Islam.

[..]

1. Heavy surveillance of Saudi society by the Mutawwa'in and the Ministry of the Interior

The Saudi religious police (Mutawwa'in) is practically omnipresent in Saudi Arabia. Their power is almost limitless. The Mutawwa'in have special prisons where they torture their victims. Their behaviour is often ruthless. Their aim is to ascertain that all citizens (and expatriates) adhere to strict Islamic legislation.

[...]

On daily life

The Mutawwa'in control every aspect of daily life. They patrol the streets in their cars, check in shops if women are dressed according to Islamic dress codes, see that all shops are closed during prayer times, watch that no signs of other religions are visible, etc

[...]

Systematic Discrimination based on Sex and Religion are Built into Saudi law.
By religious law and social custom, women have the right to own property and are entitled to financial support from their husbands or male relatives. However, women have few political and social rights and are not treated as equal members of society.
There are no active women's rights groups, nor would one be tolerated by the Government. Women, including foreigners, may not legally drive motor vehicles or ride bicycles and are restricted in their use of public facilities when men are present. Women must enter city buses by separate rear entrances and sit in specially designated sections. Women risk arrest by the Mutawwa'in for riding in a vehicle driven by a male who is not an employee or a close male relative. Women are not admitted to a hospital for medical treatment without the consent of their male relative(s). By law and custom, women may not undertake domestic and foreign travel alone.

[...]

On media and telecommunications

The law severely limits freedom of Speech and Press. The authorities do not countenance criticism of Islam, the ruling family, of the government. Persons whose criticism align with an organised political opposition are subject to arrest and detention until they confess their crime or sign a statement promising not to resume such criticisms, which is tantamount to a confession.."

http://www.opendoors.org/content/saudipro2.htm
.

 

[theHawk]

Where is David2004 when you need him.

 

[Said1]

`

photo: freedomhouse.org

Saudi Arabia


The Church in Saudi Arabia is living under the most difficult circumstances. The regime has declared the entire Arabian peninsula 'Haram,' forbidden to all other religions, and it is enforcing this prohibition strictly.

Freedom of religion does not exist. The Government prohibits the practice of other religions, be it in Public or in Private.
Saudi law states that no churches may be built north of Yemen and south of Jordan.

It is impossible for foreigners to visit Saudi Arabia as tourists. One can only enter the kingdom on business visa (i.e. on the invitation of a company already active in the country), or as a Muslim pilgrim.
The survey of problems and needs of the Church in Saudi Arabia is completely determined by the total prohibition of any religion but Islam.

[..]

1. Heavy surveillance of Saudi society by the Mutawwa'in and the Ministry of the Interior

The Saudi religious police (Mutawwa'in) is practically omnipresent in Saudi Arabia. Their power is almost limitless. The Mutawwa'in have special prisons where they torture their victims. Their behaviour is often ruthless. Their aim is to ascertain that all citizens (and expatriates) adhere to strict Islamic legislation.

[...]

On daily life

The Mutawwa'in control every aspect of daily life. They patrol the streets in their cars, check in shops if women are dressed according to Islamic dress codes, see that all shops are closed during prayer times, watch that no signs of other religions are visible, etc

[...]

Systematic Discrimination based on Sex and Religion are Built into Saudi law.
By religious law and social custom, women have the right to own property and are entitled to financial support from their husbands or male relatives. However, women have few political and social rights and are not treated as equal members of society.
There are no active women's rights groups, nor would one be tolerated by the Government. Women, including foreigners, may not legally drive motor vehicles or ride bicycles and are restricted in their use of public facilities when men are present. Women must enter city buses by separate rear entrances and sit in specially designated sections. Women risk arrest by the Mutawwa'in for riding in a vehicle driven by a male who is not an employee or a close male relative. Women are not admitted to a hospital for medical treatment without the consent of their male relative(s). By law and custom, women may not undertake domestic and foreign travel alone.

[...]

On media and telecommunications

The law severely limits freedom of Speech and Press. The authorities do not countenance criticism of Islam, the ruling family, of the government. Persons whose criticism align with an organised political opposition are subject to arrest and detention until they confess their crime or sign a statement promising not to resume such criticisms, which is tantamount to a confession.."

http://www.opendoors.org/content/saudipro2.htm
.

It's not surprising to see any of the above implemented within a THEOCRACY.

 

[abu afak]

Original link for picture expired:

Here's a new one:

Political situation

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy without elected representative institutions or political parties. It is ruled by King Fahd bin Abd Al-Aziz Al Saud, a son of King Abd Al-Aziz Al Saud, who unified the country in the early 20th century. The King and the Crown Prince are chosen from among the male descendants of King Abd Al-Aziz. There is no written constitution.
There is no concept of the separation of state and religion. The Government enforces adherence to the precepts of a rigorously conservative form of Islam - a position that enjoys near-consensus support among Saudi citizens...."


Human rights

There is an almost total lack of freedoms in Saudi Arabia. The government commits or tolerates serious abuses. Aspects of the law Prohibit or Restrict freedoms of speech, press, assembly, and association.
There is systematic Discrimination against women, and strict limitations, and even suppression, of the rights of workers and of Ethnic and Religious minorities. Ministry of Interior officers allegedly abused prisoners and facilitated incommunicado detention in contradiction of Saudi law, but with the acquiescence of the Government.

Arbitrary arrest and prolonged detention are problems, as well as Violence against women. There is no mechanism for citizens to change their government. Since the death of King Abd Al-Aziz, the King and Crown Prince have been chosen from among his sons, who themselves have had preponderant influence in the choice. A 1992 royal decree reserves for the King exclusive power to name the Crown Prince.
The government bases its legitimacy on governance according to Islamic law. The government disagrees with internationally accepted definitions of human rights and views Islamic law as the only necessary guide to protect human rights.

Among the limitation of freedoms is the fact that you cannot even decide for yourself which radio or television station you would like to watch: it is forbidden to have a dish antenna in Saudi Arabia, but many possess a dish antenna anyway. Amnesty International, which is not particularly popular in Saudi Arabia, is constantly accusing the country of violating human rights. In 1993 80 people were killed by receiving the death penalty. There was no change in the practice in 1994, when 'only' 59 people were executed. The 1995 total was considerably higher than that (191). There were twice as many Non-Saudis Executed as Saudis.

The juridical system is based upon the Shariah law, and one could call it Medieval. Should you be arrested in Saudi Arabia, you'd better forget about human rights.

The Government does not permit visits by international human rights groups or independent monitoring groups, nor has it signed major international human rights treaties and conventions. The Government disagrees with internationally accepted definitions of human rights and views Islamic law as the only necessary guide to protect human rights. Citations of Saudi human rights abuses by international monitors or foreign governments are routinely ignored or condemned by the Government as assaults on Islam..."

http://www.opendoors.org/content/saudipro.htm
(also now expired)

 

[Epsilon Delta]

It's no secret that Saudi Arabia is one of the most fundamentalist terror states in the world. It's government makes Iran look like Belgium. But it's a staunch US client state who knows what's good for it, so I don't see any way it's going to change except through revolution.

 

[José]

Playboy, Hustler and Private or their equivalents will probably be sold in Mecca some centuries from now, Sunni.

There'll be no place for religious superstition in any future government that will rule the highly advanced scientific/technological society our species is heading too.

By then, America will be long gone as a country but her ideals will have triumphed and arabs won't even try to understand the medieval mindset of some of their 21th century ancestors.

In the long run, no amount of patchwork can save this sinking ship known as muslim theocracy from its appointment with the dustbin of history.

You're a big guy, Sunni... get over it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It is their Country. Their laws. Personally I think the west should do to Islam what it does to the west. You want to immigrate to Europe or the US you have to renounce the Muslim faith and it can not be practiced in those countries. When Muslim Countries cease their religious bigotry then the west will too.

 

[Sunni Man]

It is their Country. Their laws. Personally I think the west should do to Islam what it does to the west. You want to immigrate to Europe or the US you have to renounce the Muslim faith and it can not be practiced in those countries. When Muslim Countries cease their religious bigotry then the west will too.

Actually, Saudia Arabia is the only Islamic country to ban churches and synagogues.

Every other Islamic country I can think of allows both Christians and Jews to build their houses of worship and practice their religion.

Saudi Arabia is going against both the Quran and Muhammad's teaching by enforcing such a restriction.

Even Muhammad himself allowed both churches and synagogues in both Mecca and Medina. The two most holy cities in Islam. He even allowed both Christians and Jews to use his Mosque in Mecca to hold their religious services when needed.

Saudi Arabia is wrong in not allowing both Christians and Jews to worship in the Arabian peninsula. So please don't blame all Muslims and all other Islamic countries for their unIslamic behavior.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
It is their Country. Their laws. Personally I think the west should do to Islam what it does to the west. You want to immigrate to Europe or the US you have to renounce the Muslim faith and it can not be practiced in those countries. When Muslim Countries cease their religious bigotry then the west will too.

European secularism finally ended Europe's religious wars and secularism in the arab world will eventually defeat militant Islam.

It's not the West that must adopt totalitarian, theocratic traits such as prohibiting a given religion. It is the Arab world that must be exposed to the 21th century open societies of the West in order to weaken the totalitarian religious ideologies sponsored by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Al Quaeda, Hamas etc...

So your medicine is even worse than the disease, Sargeant.

I hope you're feeling fine, btw : )

 

[Sunni Man]

European secularism finally ended Europe's religious wars and secularism in the arab world will eventually defeat militant Islam.

It's not the West that must adopt totalitarian, theocratic traits such as prohibiting a given religion. It is the Arab world that must be exposed to the 21th century open societies of the West in order to weaken the totalitarian religious ideologies sponsored by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Al Quaeda, Hamas etc...

In reality, the reverse is true.

As Islam comes more into contact with the West. The stronger Islam becomes.

New mosques are being built all over europe and america on an almost daily basis. Plus westeners are converting to Islam is record numbers.

Secularism has proved to be a hollow and bankrupt philosophy that leads to cultural and moral decline. Islam fills that vacuum with a universal system that is attracting the masses.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Sunni Man
In reality, the reverse is true.

As Islam comes more into contact with the West. The stronger Islam becomes.

New mosques are being built all over europe and america on an almost daily basis. Plus westeners are converting to Islam is record numbers.

Pure, unadultered bullshit.

The “islamic conversion” of Europe and America is the most overblown, or rather, the most delusional story of this century.

What you call “westeners converting to Islam in record numbers” are just a pitiful bunch of american and european dead-enders. For each one of these new converts you have 5 arabs in Europe who couldn’t care less about religion.

Anyway, you’re missing the point, Sunni. This is the message I’m trying to get across:

Humans are developing an incredibly complex scientific/technological civilization. This civilization is based on rationality not on religious superstition.

Theocracy will eventually be abandoned because you cannot have a civilization/society based on reason, on rational concepts, ruled by superstitious leaders, who tried to confine the expansion of the rational knowledge within the limits of their religious dogma and spend precious resources building temples, financing religious burocracies, etc like Saudi Arabia does.

Theocracies are PRIMITIVE forms of government that work well during the pre scientific stage that rational species go through (if there are more than one).

Theocratic governments become totally disfunctional as soon as the rational beings that inhabit a given planet start developing a technological civilization.

As rational species become more and more dependant on science based technology a government that imposes religious rather than rational values on the society and its citizens becomes a burden, a hindrance to this civilization.

A scientific/technological society ruled by religious laws is a monstruosity. You’re trying to mix oil with water when you propose such absurdities, buddy.

Now listen, our species is not going back to the caves, not even to medieval castles, so sooner or later, the arab world will have to catch up with the rest of mankind and then all muslim theocracies will innevitably go the way of the Dodo just like the christian, jewish and even bhuddist ones (Tibet).

To end the post on a comical note:

Star Trek does not mix well with Richard the Lionheart, Sunni.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Sunni Man
Secularism has proved to be a hollow and bankrupt philosophy that leads to cultural and moral decline. Islam fills that vacuum with a universal system that is attracting the masses.

So let’s dissect “the hollow and bankrupt philosophy” of secularism, shall we?

Secularism has two main roots:

Renaissance, a movement of intellectual renovation that rebelled against the totalitarian control and restriction of knowledge and experimentation imposed by a CHRISTIAN THEOCRACY that held back human technological development for centuries by favoring theological/philosophical speculation over scientific investigation AS ALL THEOCRACIES TEND TO DO.

The Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution freed westerners from the shackles imposed by religious dogmas and, by emphasising rational investigation over theological speculation, gave birth to the most properous societies on Earth responsible for 90% of all the scientific and technological progress mankind has obtained during the last 500 years providing their citizens with the highest standard of living in the history of our species.

Theocratic societies gave us nothing but intellectual darkness, technological backwardness, authoritarianism and lack of respect for the private life of their citizens.

The scientific/technological societies that flourished under secular states freed its citizens from the Big Brother behind the Holy Book telling ADULTS, and I repeat, ADULTS, how they should lead their lives, and gave us modern medicine, the most fast/efficient means of transportation, mass communication, vast improvements in food production, space travel etc, etc...

If these human societies were to open their gates half of mankind would choose to live there.

Some “hollow and bankrupt philosophy” you have there, buddy!!

 

[José]

Sunni Man... stop deluding yourself and face reality.

10 centuries from now, arabs won’t be living under islamic laws anymore...

They will be exploring newly discovered solar systems and planets up close through the windows of their spaceships!!

Come on Sunni...

Reject this prehistoric form of government known as theocracy and embrace the future of our species wholeheartdly!!!

JOIN THE WINNING TEAM, SUNNI MAN!!!!

 

[Sunni Man]

European secularism finally ended Europe's religious wars

Remember WWI & WWII ????

They were after Europe embraced secularism. Largest and most violent wars in the history of mankind.

Some improvement!!!

 

[DavidS]

Remember WWI & WWII ????

They were after Europe embraced secularism. Largest and most violent wars in the history of mankind.

Some improvement!!!

Except that WW1 and WW2 had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

 

[Sunni Man]

Except that WW1 and WW2 had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Re read my post. That's exactly what I said!!!

 

[abu afak]

Actually, Saudia Arabia is the only Islamic country to ban churches and synagogues.

Every other Islamic country I can think of allows both Christians and Jews to build their houses of worship and practice their religion.

That's complete Crap. Pue LIES.

Christians are Persecuted in MOST Muslim countries.
Even 'Moderate' regimes like Egypt Persecute the Copts, and you Need a Permit just to Repair a Church, much less build one.

People are prevented or executed trying to convert ("Apostate") from Islam in many countries, like Pakistan and 'moderate' Egypt.
-

Saudi Arabia is going against both the Quran and Muhammad's teaching by enforcing such a restriction.

Even Muhammad himself allowed both churches and synagogues in both Mecca and Medina. The two most holy cities in Islam. He even allowed both Christians and Jews to use his Mosque in Mecca to hold their religious services when needed.

Saudi Arabia is wrong in not allowing both Christians and Jews to worship in the Arabian peninsula. So please don't blame all Muslims and all other Islamic countries for their unIslamic behavior.

Absolute Lies.
Taqiyyah BS.

moHAMmed said "Two religions may not dwell on the Arabia Peninsula" (and so much else)
and so it IS to this day.

 

[abu afak]

Just stopped by to say Hi
and ruin Sheik Tinmore's day.
This board has gone to Hell I see in activity and in quality... and in Bigotry.

me

photo: freedomhouse.org

Saudi Arabia


The Church in Saudi Arabia is living under the most difficult circumstances. The regime has declared the entire Arabian peninsula 'Haram,' forbidden to all other religions, and it is enforcing this prohibition strictly.

Freedom of religion does not exist. The Government prohibits the practice of other religions, be it in Public or in Private.
Saudi law states that no churches may be built north of Yemen and south of Jordan.

It is impossible for foreigners to visit Saudi Arabia as tourists. One can only enter the kingdom on business visa (i.e. on the invitation of a company already active in the country), or as a Muslim pilgrim.
The survey of problems and needs of the Church in Saudi Arabia is completely determined by the total prohibition of any religion but Islam.

[..]

1. Heavy surveillance of Saudi society by the Mutawwa'in and the Ministry of the Interior

The Saudi religious police (Mutawwa'in) is practically omnipresent in Saudi Arabia. Their power is almost limitless. The Mutawwa'in have special prisons where they torture their victims. Their behaviour is often ruthless. Their aim is to ascertain that all citizens (and expatriates) adhere to strict Islamic legislation.

[...]

On daily life

The Mutawwa'in control every aspect of daily life. They patrol the streets in their cars, check in shops if women are dressed according to Islamic dress codes, see that all shops are closed during prayer times, watch that no signs of other religions are visible, etc

[...]

Systematic Discrimination based on Sex and Religion are Built into Saudi law.
By religious law and social custom, women have the right to own property and are entitled to financial support from their husbands or male relatives. However, women have few political and social rights and are not treated as equal members of society.
There are no active women's rights groups, nor would one be tolerated by the Government. Women, including foreigners, may not legally drive motor vehicles or ride bicycles and are restricted in their use of public facilities when men are present. Women must enter city buses by separate rear entrances and sit in specially designated sections. Women risk arrest by the Mutawwa'in for riding in a vehicle driven by a male who is not an employee or a close male relative. Women are not admitted to a hospital for medical treatment without the consent of their male relative(s). By law and custom, women may not undertake domestic and foreign travel alone.

[...]

On media and telecommunications

The law severely limits freedom of Speech and Press. The authorities do not countenance criticism of Islam, the ruling family, of the government. Persons whose criticism align with an organised political opposition are subject to arrest and detention until they confess their crime or sign a statement promising not to resume such criticisms, which is tantamount to a confession.."

http://www.opendoors.org/content/saudipro2.htm
.

 

[Marc39]

It is their Country. Their laws. Personally I think the west should do to Islam what it does to the west. You want to immigrate to Europe or the US you have to renounce the Muslim faith and it can not be practiced in those countries. When Muslim Countries cease their religious bigotry then the west will too.

Actually, Saudia Arabia is the only Islamic country to ban churches and synagogues.

Every other Islamic country I can think of allows both Christians and Jews to build their houses of worship and practice their religion.

Saudi Arabia is going against both the Quran and Muhammad's teaching by enforcing such a restriction.

Even Muhammad himself allowed both churches and synagogues in both Mecca and Medina. The two most holy cities in Islam. He even allowed both Christians and Jews to use his Mosque in Mecca to hold their religious services when needed.

Saudi Arabia is wrong in not allowing both Christians and Jews to worship in the Arabian peninsula. So please don't blame all Muslims and all other Islamic countries for their unIslamic behavior.

Jordan bans Jews. Yemen persecutes Jews. Jews are persecuted in Iran.
All in all, only 10,000 Jews live in 27 Muslim countries in the Middle East with 350 million Arabs. This says it all.
The Quran calls for death to the Jew. Muhammad hated the Jews for rejecting his cult.
Muhammad massacred and expelled the entire Jewish community in Medina, beheading 800 Jews one by one. So, don't give me shit about Muhammad loving Jews.

 

[Shogun]

HA!

yea... jews are SO persecuted in Iran that those pesky Iranian Jews told your kind to shove your shekels where water doesn't touch but only twice a year, eh Shlomo?

anyone else find it fucking hilarious that little chosen boy's measure amounts to how saturated OTHER cultures are with jews... while he demands nothing less than ethnic dominance in israel?