Who Celebrates Bastille Day?

[PoliticalChic]

When a new member complained that some thought he was a liberal, one of our members proudly proclaimed: “Welcome from a real liberal.”

The beauty of USMB is how proudly most of the folks here speak right up for their beliefs!

1. So, kudos to our liberals friends, and have a wonderful July 14th, Bastille Day, the day that memorializes the French Revolution, and, since liberals/ progressives are heir to the French Revolution, have a great celebration!

2. Yes, just as an argument can be made that classical liberals, or what would be called conservatives today, are heir to the American Revolution, liberals can trace their provenance to Rousseau, and St. Just!

3. For Rousseau, the “Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen” proclaimed that the ‘general will’ of the people had to be correct, because it was the ‘general will,” the true interest of what everyone wants whether they realize it or not, and he ‘determined’ the ‘general will,’ so, anyone who deviated from same deserved no rights!

a. Although he had written a ‘constitution,’ it became malleable for Robespierre: “How did Robespierre actually interpret these principles? He said: “[W]e must exterminate all our enemies with the law in our hands”; “the Declaration of Rights offers no safeguard to conspirators”; “the suspicions of enlightened patriotism might offer a better guide than formal rules of evidence.” http://www.nationalaffairs.com/docl...hvsthefrenchenlightmentgertrudehimmelfarb.pdf,

Notice the echo in the actions of the early Progressives who suggested that the US Constitution may be shed, ‘like a garment.’ Their views surpassed those of the Founders. http://www.nationalaffairs.com/docl...hvsthefrenchenlightmentgertrudehimmelfarb.pdf

Could there be a better description of the collectivist totalitarian statist?

4. Of course, a minor difference that the astute might notice is that America’s documents did win freedom and individual rights, and France’s Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen led to bestial savagery, followed by Napoleon’s dictatorship, followed by another monarchy, and finally something resembling an actual republic some 80 years later.

5. And just one more difference between the two revolution, mirroring the difference between liberals and conservatives? With the Jacobins in control, the “de-Christianization” campaign kicked into high gear. Inspired by Rousseau’s idea of the 'religion civile', the revolution sought to completely destroy Christianity and replace it with a religion of the state. To honor “reason” and fulfill the promise of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen that “no one may be questioned about his opinions, including his religious views,” Catholic priests were forced to stand before the revolutionary clubs and take oaths to France’s new humanocentric religion, the Cult of Reason (which is French for ‘People for the American Way’).Revolutionaries smashed church art and statues.

a. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.” David Limbaugh Believers in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, or, as they would be known today, “an extremist Fundementalist hate group.”
(From Coulter’s best seller, “Demonic .”)

So, to those of the Liberal persuasion, party like it’s 1789!

…But remember, the party will be over in November, 2012.

 

[konradv]

Does anyone take PC seriously? This calls for a new corollary to Godwin's Law!!!

 

[Mr. H.]

I bathe with castile on Bastille.

 

[Douger]

Thanks for the excuse ! Party time, manana !!!

 

[Si modo]

Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrive!

Congrats, France. (A bit early) Some excellent philosophical minds and thankfully the English colonists were wise enough to read the works they published before either revolution. The French would have been well-advised to consider those works, too. However, they seemed to be more driven toward mob rule.

Domage.




But, I have to say that guillotine is beyond harsh. Just creepy, really.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrive!

Congrats, France. (A bit early) Some excellent philosophical minds and thankfully the English colonists were wise enough to read the works they published before either revolution. The French would have been well-advised to consider those works, too. However, they seemed to be more driven toward mob rule.

Domage.




But, I have to say that guillotine is beyond harsh. Just creepy, really.

Guillotine? The pike!

Three days after the completion of The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, the mob stormed the Bastille, and marched around with the head of the prison’s commander, Marquis de Launay, on a pike. Shortly, the greatest nation in continental Europe became a human abattoir.

France’s revolution-by-mob has become an inspiration to be imitated in Germany, Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia, North Korea, Venezuela, in short, for Lefties everywhere.

 

[whitehall]

How did France turn out in the next two hundred years? The US had to save their quiche eating asses twice in the 20th century. Half the country wanted to be Nazis during WW2. Now they riot in the streets for three months paid (by the taxpayers) vacation every year.

 

[CitizenPained]

I'm sure Conservatives would put Obama's head on a pike - or at least deport him to Saudi Arabia - if they could.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I bathe with castile on Bastille.

Does it get the grape-stains off the bottom of your feet?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZCqV7c6u5Q&playnext=1&list=PL8D5FE25EC424D856]YouTube - ‪Stomping Grapes‬‏[/ame]




You should do a commercial....

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'm sure Conservatives would put Obama's head on a pike - or at least deport him to Saudi Arabia - if they could.

Totally false in both essence and in implication.

Neither do the conservative that I'm aware of even speak like that.

Only liberals have, for example, assassinated any of our Presidents, of any political figures.

It is the Left that is responsible for violence, and the French Revolution is a prime example.

 

[PoliticalChic]

How did France turn out in the next two hundred years? The US had to save their quiche eating asses twice in the 20th century. Half the country wanted to be Nazis during WW2. Now they riot in the streets for three months paid (by the taxpayers) vacation every year.

Whitey, since the Anthony decision, I've been thinking of wring an essay about the denial of the existence of evil by the Left, and you bring up a great example....the French Socialists of Paul Faure, who rationalised evil and found reasons not to do anything about it...

Covered more thoroughly in Paul Berman's "Terror and Liberalism:"

1. The French Socialists of the 1930’s had impeccable democratic credentials, dating back to the 19th century. They won elections, and in Leon Blum they produced a great leader, a prime minister who had the ability to fuse French patriotism and social justice, and the finest cultural values.

2. Which brings us to Paul Faure, the general-secretary of said French Socialists, and leader of the faction that opposed war- at any cost. While Blum recognized the horror that Hitler represented, the Paul-Fauristes desperately sought to find a description of reality that did not point in the direction of war! ‘Don’t judge Germany too quickly, nor too starkly.’ After all, they had been treated poorly by the Treaty of Versailles. And their people living in Slavic countries weren’t being treated well… shouldn’t we show some flexibility? Conciliate the outraged German people! This is not cowardly, or unprincipled…no, it is simply anti-war. And, therefore, the real dangers were not from the Nazis or Hitler, but from the warmongers, those who would profit from war!

a. While those were the arguments of the anti-war left, the unfocused or philosophical basis which gave credence to those arguments, was that, in our modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. There must always be some rationality behind a movement, no matter how mad it seems. A faith in universal rationality. Can you say “liberal naïveté” of the nineteenth century…a simple minded optimism, the liberalism of a strictly rational world, the liberalism of denial.

b. Paul Faure’s French Socialists refused to believe that millions of respectable Germans subscribed to a political movement whose doctrines were paranoid conspiracy theories, blood-curdling hatreds, medieval superstitions, and the lure of mass murder. For the Socialists, there was always a why.

3. So our Socialist friends listened to the Nazis’ speeches about Jews, and stroked their bearded chins, and queried, ‘what is anti-Semitism, anyway?’ Aren’t there some Jews who we don’t like? And the war-hawks…some of them are Jews…why, even Leon Blum, he is a Jew, and he takes a hard line…suspicious. Perhaps Hitler isn’t entirely wrong.


And I don't believe that this type of psychology is restricted to the French alone....

 

[PoliticalChic]

Does anyone take PC seriously? This calls for a new corollary to Godwin's Law!!!

Poor, poor, sad Konny….

You’ve been trained to be ignorant and to love it!

Trained to resist the incorporation of facts that reflect poorly on your left-wing monitors. And like the cute little lap dog that you’ve become, you wait for your treat.

Up, Konny…up! Good Konny! Good boy!


Now, if you actually had a mind that you put to use in the manner it was intended, I would ask you to review these, from the OP:

1. Is July 14th, Bastille Day, the day that memorializes the French Revolution?

2. Is liberalism a belief in an ever-expanding government whose power is necessarily increasing to solve societal woes, as is the belief found in Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s ‘general will’ that must be obeyed?

3. Is liberalism not founded on the view of Rousseau, that although he had written a ‘constitution,’ it became malleable for Robespierre; today we call that the “Living Constitution.”

a. How about his quote from Robespierre:“the suspicions of enlightened patriotism might offer a better guide than formal rules of evidence.” Doesn’t it sound just like the Liberal-Democrats at the Justice Thomas hearings: “"The nature of the evidence is irrelevant; it's the seriousness of the charge that matters. ...”

4. How about this: “the early Progressives who suggested that the US Constitution may be shed, ‘like a garment.’ Do you deny that this is exactly what Progressive Woodrow Wilson said of the Constitution??

5. How about this: America’s documents did win freedom and individual rights, and France’s Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen led to bestial savagery,…True???

a. And, didn’t all of the following Leftist revolutions follow the model of the French Revolution??? Germany, Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia, North Korea, Venezuela, in short, for liberals everywhere.

6. And this quote, Konny: “With the Jacobins in control, the “de-Christianization” campaign kicked into high gear. Inspired by Rousseau’s idea of the 'religion civile', the revolution sought to completely destroy Christianity and replace it with a religion of the state.”

a. And by similar token, hasn’t the Left attempted to remove every sign of Christianity from the public arena….even though this campaign represents the opposite view of our founders??

OK, Konny….go ahead, find the errors, in the above.

Oops! Just for a moment I though I was dealing with an intelligent opponent....That's OK, Konny, you're dismissed.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

While I think the French made some serious errors in government organization... (The really should have paid attention to the debates over here. It would have saved them a lot of pain long term) I can't say I have much sympathy for the Burbons, Romanovs or Hohenzollerens. (The last Haspburg, Otto who just died two weeks ago seems to have been an ok dude, but he was all of 8 when he succeeded to the title)

You read up on the way France was organized in 1788, or for that matter Germany or Russia in 1917, you become just a bit more sympathetic to the concept of wholesale blood thirst.

But you look at what came after in Germany, France and Russia..... You appreciate the guys who met in Philly that long hot summer 220 odd years ago a whole lot more. We got really seriously lucky.

 

[waltky]

Uncle Ferd says the French...

... he says dey all gather round an' drink wine...

... an' eat a lot o' dat Bastille cheese...

... Uncle Ferd knows all `bout dem wine an' cheese parties.

 

[PoliticalChic]

While I think the French made some serious errors in government organization... (The really should have paid attention to the debates over here. It would have saved them a lot of pain long term) I can't say I have much sympathy for the Burbons, Romanovs or Hohenzollerens. (The last Haspburg, Otto who just died two weeks ago seems to have been an ok dude, but he was all of 8 when he succeeded to the title)

You read up on the way France was organized in 1788, or for that matter Germany or Russia in 1917, you become just a bit more sympathetic to the concept of wholesale blood thirst.

But you look at what came after in Germany, France and Russia..... You appreciate the guys who met in Philly that long hot summer 220 odd years ago a whole lot more. We got really seriously lucky.

Well, Baruch, I've read treatise that gave a tip of the hat to a devine providence....but it's hard for one to study history and come away with the idea that we were simply lucky....

Instead, for your consideration, I'd like to amplify on the idea that our selection of the right path had more to do with the Anglo-Saxon background of our founders than 'luck'..


As discussed in “Justinian’s Flea,” by William Rosen, a major factor in distinguishing between the two outcomes may be the basis of law.

In 530 a commission led by Tribonian had the objective of revising the way lawyers were educated. Fifteen centuries later, the Codex of Justinian still exerts its influence on Europe and is known as the Civil Law tradition. The Inquisition, Renaissance, the Napoleonic Code, and the Holocaust are all, in part, an outgrowth of the lex regia: “The will of the prince has the force of law.”(Quod principi placuit, legis haget vigorem) Today, European law gives preeminence to legislatures, the institution that drafted the statute prevails.

In Anglo-American Common Law tradition, the institution that interprets and adjudicates the statute has the final word. Due to the absence of a jury, and the deference to whomever writes the laws, Civil Law tradition is friendlier to tyrannical regimes than the Common Law tradition.

So, Baruch, the huge gulf that separated the outcomes of the two revolutions, French and American, it seems to me, has less to do with 'luck' than with religion and with basis of the jurisprudence in effect.


And, if you like, consider the kind of people in the two nations...
Edmund Burke, the father of conservatism, decried the French Revolution even before the guillotining began. He wrote in 1789 that the “old Parisian ferocity has broken out in a shocking manner. It is true that this may be no more than a sudden explosion…But if it should be character rather than accident, then that people are not fit for Liberty, and must have a Strong hand like that of their former masters to coerce them.” Edmund Burke, “Reflections on the Revolution in France,” p. 13.

 

[Douger]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae6tBCxC1QA]‪two gram bong hit, try 1‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Mr. H.]

Dude didn't even cough. I'm impressed.

 

[xsited1]

Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrive!

Congrats, France. (A bit early) Some excellent philosophical minds and thankfully the English colonists were wise enough to read the works they published before either revolution. The French would have been well-advised to consider those works, too. However, they seemed to be more driven toward mob rule.

Domage.




But, I have to say that guillotine is beyond harsh. Just creepy, really.

Guillotine? The pike!

Three days after the completion of The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, the mob stormed the Bastille, and marched around with the head of the prison’s commander, Marquis de Launay, on a pike. Shortly, the greatest nation in continental Europe became a human abattoir.

France’s revolution-by-mob has become an inspiration to be imitated in Germany, Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia, North Korea, Venezuela, in short, for Lefties everywhere.

Well said.

 

[Ravi]

a. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.” David Limbaugh Believers in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, or, as they would be known today, “an extremist Fundementalist hate group.”
(From Coulter’s best seller, “Demonic .”)

You have honestly shocked me. You blame the French Revolution on skin color and/or religion?

Unfuckingreal.

 

[Barb]