Who are the Israelis?

[Shusha]

It is a wonder you call such questioning “legitimate” when it’s only purpose is to deny identity. The difference is merely one of scale, not INTENT. Ask yourself, what purpose is there in perpetrating the “Palestinians are a fake people” canard? Why do people insist on pushing it?

What is their motive Shusha?

Well, ultimately, I believe the motive of people like rylah, Sixties, and myself, among others is the survival of the Jewish people in the face of an existential threat, specifically by the larger Arab world. That is the CONTEXT for the Jewish people.

IF the Arab Palestinian people exist ONLY to counter and and erase and replace the Jewish people, and if they can't develop an identity OUTSIDE of that, and if their national liberation movement DEPENDS on ending Jewish sovereignty and self-determination, THEN their legitimacy as a NATIONAL movement SHOULD be questioned.

IF the Arab Palestinians exist independent of any definition of Jewish self-determination, sovereignty, entitlement to their own history, homeland and monuments, THEN they should be able to demonstrate that. Its been a hundred years and we are all still waiting. They don't seem to have the ability to form an independent nation. Why not? Fundamentally, why haven't they?

In other words, Team Israel is not denying the Arab Palestinians the RIGHT to be a "real people" -- we are acknowledging the fact that they have not yet met the criteria. Just as they have not met the criteria for Statehood. There is no evil motive in that.

 

[Coyote]

Resist This - Menahem Begin harsh response to demands for an Arab state

He was a former terrorist you know.

You do not know the meaning of the word Terrorist.

Fighting for one's survival against not only the Arabs but the British is not Terrorism.

Terrorism is when one attack, endlessly, all the people in one land with the intent of killing them all and stealing all their property and land.

That title belongs to Al Husseini, Arafat, Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah, and many others, who have been working very hard for almost 100 years to make that Israel is destroyed and all Jews are gone.

Pay attention to the endless archeological terrorism on Jewish antiquity practiced by Arabs on all things Jewish.

I know the meaning of the word terrorist. Generally people who are involved in market place bombings and other civilian targets are considered terrorists.

No, Coyote. That is not the meaning of the word. And especially not when it comes to Israel, its fight to become Independent, something the other three Mandates did not have to go through at all, including Iraq with its three different groups of people......at least in the beginning of what became Iraq.

Yes. It is. You don’t get to invent your own definitions for terrorism based on the ethnicity of the people conducting the terrorist acts. Terrorists target civilians purposefully and yes, when Begin was commanding Irgun and deliberately targeting civilians he was a terrorist.

 

[Shusha]

Part of the problem here is the misuse of genetics. Genetics, like science is NEUTRAL. The misuse of it by some has now poisoned a perfectly valid scientific tool for studying the movements of ancient people unfortunately.

Yes. And since we are NOT actually discussing the movements of ancient people, YOU are the one misusing it in this context. Genetics is NOT RELEVANT to discussions of national liberation movements or claims to self-determination.

 

[Coyote]

It is a wonder you call such questioning “legitimate” when it’s only purpose is to deny identity. The difference is merely one of scale, not INTENT. Ask yourself, what purpose is there in perpetrating the “Palestinians are a fake people” canard? Why do people insist on pushing it?

What is their motive Shusha?

Well, ultimately, I believe the motive of people like rylah, Sixties, and myself, among others is the survival of the Jewish people in the face of an existential threat, specifically by the larger Arab world. That is the CONTEXT for the Jewish people.

IF the Arab Palestinian people exist ONLY to counter and and erase and replace the Jewish people, and if they can't develop an identity OUTSIDE of that, and if their national liberation movement DEPENDS on ending Jewish sovereignty and self-determination, THEN their legitimacy as a NATIONAL movement SHOULD be questioned.

IF the Arab Palestinians exist independent of any definition of Jewish self-determination, sovereignty, entitlement to their own history, homeland and monuments, THEN they should be able to demonstrate that. Its been a hundred years and we are all still waiting. They don't seem to have the ability to form an independent nation. Why not? Fundamentally, why haven't they?

In other words, Team Israel is not denying the Arab Palestinians the RIGHT to be a "real people" -- we are acknowledging the fact that they have not yet met the criteria. Just as they have not met the criteria for Statehood. There is no evil motive in that.

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

 

[Coyote]

Part of the problem here is the misuse of genetics. Genetics, like science is NEUTRAL. The misuse of it by some has now poisoned a perfectly valid scientific tool for studying the movements of ancient people unfortunately.

Yes. And since we are NOT actually discussing the movements of ancient people, YOU are the one misusing it in this context. Genetics is NOT RELEVANT to discussions of national liberation movements or claims to self-determination.

No I am not misusing it when the argument is made that they are not indigenous ti the area. Then yes, it IS relevant. The particular conversation it was used in was NOT discussing national liberation movements but ORIGINS.

 

[Shusha]

[
Did the Palestinians expel Jews fron all those states? No.

Did the Arab Palestinians attempt to expel Jewish Palestinians from all of Palestine? Of course they did. They just failed. They are still attempting it. And they are still failing. Arab Palestinians are absolutely to be included in a much wider group of Arab nations which chose to persecute, oppress, cleanse and attempt genocide against the Jewish people.

There was a considerable effort on the part of Jews to expell a great many Palestinian Arabs. Looks like everyone was busy expelling.

And your use of the term genocide in this is as dishonest as when the pro pali’s use it against Israel. Genocide has a very specific meaning.

A specific meaning like, "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants" or "The time has come to enter a battle of annihilation". Or how about "...rip the hearts out of Jews"? The term is accurate.

Again, you are trying to create a false equivalency where there is none. The Jewish people in the Arab countries were citizens with histories in many cases going back hundreds or thousands of years. They were not at war with the Arab countries in which they lived. They posed no threat to the Arab countries in which they lived. They had no weapons which they were using against the governments of the Arab countries.

IN CONTRAST, the Arab Palestinians and the Jewish Palestinians were at war with each other. A war which, for the Jewish people, was in the CONTEXT of annihilation because that is what the Arabs SAID WAS THEIR PURPOSE.

That is still the context for the Jewish people because the Arabs are still saying this is their purpose.

 

[Coyote]

[
Did the Palestinians expel Jews fron all those states? No.

Did the Arab Palestinians attempt to expel Jewish Palestinians from all of Palestine? Of course they did. They just failed. They are still attempting it. And they are still failing. Arab Palestinians are absolutely to be included in a much wider group of Arab nations which chose to persecute, oppress, cleanse and attempt genocide against the Jewish people.

There was a considerable effort on the part of Jews to expell a great many Palestinian Arabs. Looks like everyone was busy expelling.

And your use of the term genocide in this is as dishonest as when the pro pali’s use it against Israel. Genocide has a very specific meaning.

A specific meaning like, "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants" or "The time has come to enter a battle of annihilation". Or how about "...rip the hearts out of Jews"? The term is accurate.

Again, you are trying to create a false equivalency where there is none. The Jewish people in the Arab countries were citizens with histories in many cases going back hundreds or thousands of years. They were not at war with the Arab countries in which they lived. They posed no threat to the Arab countries in which they lived. They had no weapons which they were using against the governments of the Arab countries.

IN CONTRAST, the Arab Palestinians and the Jewish Palestinians were at war with each other. A war which, for the Jewish people, was in the CONTEXT of annihilation because that is what the Arabs SAID WAS THEIR PURPOSE.

That is still the context for the Jewish people because the Arabs are still saying this is their purpose.

Genocide is not rhetoric...if it were we could certainly point at some ugly rhetoric from Jewish leaders. Genocide is active. If the Arab States desired genocide they would not have expelled their Jewish population, nor would there still be Jews living in states like Iran. (Disclaimer, that is not by any means implying life is dandy for them). Misusing the term genocide dilutes it’s real horror.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Resist This - Menahem Begin harsh response to demands for an Arab state

He was a former terrorist you know.

You do not know the meaning of the word Terrorist.

Fighting for one's survival against not only the Arabs but the British is not Terrorism.

Terrorism is when one attack, endlessly, all the people in one land with the intent of killing them all and stealing all their property and land.

That title belongs to Al Husseini, Arafat, Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah, and many others, who have been working very hard for almost 100 years to make that Israel is destroyed and all Jews are gone.

Pay attention to the endless archeological terrorism on Jewish antiquity practiced by Arabs on all things Jewish.

I know the meaning of the word terrorist. Generally people who are involved in market place bombings and other civilian targets are considered terrorists.

No, Coyote. That is not the meaning of the word. And especially not when it comes to Israel, its fight to become Independent, something the other three Mandates did not have to go through at all, including Iraq with its three different groups of people......at least in the beginning of what became Iraq.

Yes. It is. You don’t get to invent your own definitions for terrorism based on the ethnicity of the people conducting the terrorist acts. Terrorists target civilians purposefully and yes, when Begin was commanding Irgun and deliberately targeting civilians he was a terrorist.

Based on the ethnicity?

You have lost your mind. But then....

Are you talking about the Hotel bombing? Or what would that be?

Shall I post again the real story of that? Or the real story of whichever attack you think they targeted unarmed civilians only with the purpose of killing them or terrorizing them?

Do you have any idea what a war is?

Especially one declared against the Jewish people and against any idea of a Jewish State which began in 1920?

Do you still not consider every riot and attack of Arabs against unarmed Jews in 1920, 1921, 1925, 1929.......terrorism?

I would say you still do not, or you would not continue to only count victims of terrorism from the time the Jews started being able to defend themselves against both the Arabs and the British.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[
Did the Palestinians expel Jews fron all those states? No.

Did the Arab Palestinians attempt to expel Jewish Palestinians from all of Palestine? Of course they did. They just failed. They are still attempting it. And they are still failing. Arab Palestinians are absolutely to be included in a much wider group of Arab nations which chose to persecute, oppress, cleanse and attempt genocide against the Jewish people.

There was a considerable effort on the part of Jews to expell a great many Palestinian Arabs. Looks like everyone was busy expelling.

And your use of the term genocide in this is as dishonest as when the pro pali’s use it against Israel. Genocide has a very specific meaning.

A specific meaning like, "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants" or "The time has come to enter a battle of annihilation". Or how about "...rip the hearts out of Jews"? The term is accurate.

Again, you are trying to create a false equivalency where there is none. The Jewish people in the Arab countries were citizens with histories in many cases going back hundreds or thousands of years. They were not at war with the Arab countries in which they lived. They posed no threat to the Arab countries in which they lived. They had no weapons which they were using against the governments of the Arab countries.

IN CONTRAST, the Arab Palestinians and the Jewish Palestinians were at war with each other. A war which, for the Jewish people, was in the CONTEXT of annihilation because that is what the Arabs SAID WAS THEIR PURPOSE.

That is still the context for the Jewish people because the Arabs are still saying this is their purpose.

Genocide is not rhetoric...if it were we could certainly point at some ugly rhetoric from Jewish leaders. Genocide is active. If the Arab States desired genocide they would not have expelled their Jewish population, nor would there still be Jews living in states like Iran. (Disclaimer, that is not by any means implying life is dandy for them). Misusing the term genocide dilutes it’s real horror.

You do forget what year that happened. It was five years after the Holocaust.

Do you actually think that the Arabs were going to go into full mode genocide while the world was now watching, after what had happed to the Jews in Europe, and those Jews who tried to come to their homeland, or the Jews in Iraq who suffered a riot and massacre at the hands of the Palestinian leader Al Husseini in 1941?

Genocide is what Al Husseini had in mind for all the Jews on their ancient homeland.

Just ask all the Jews of Bosnia, what happened to them in the hands of Husseini and his Bosnian SS troop during WWII !!

 

[Shusha]

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

See? Even you have to define Arab Palestinian identity in comparison and contrast to Jewish identity.

There is no dispute that they inhabit the land and have for several hundreds of years. There is no dispute that they have a history in that land. The discussion is on whether or not they developed a distinct identity and whether or not it is strong enough to establish a national identity. And whether or not it could be said that they ALREADY have a State with territory (Jordan). Those are legitimate questions.

 

[Coyote]

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

See? Even you have to define Arab Palestinian identity in comparison and contrast to Jewish identity.

There is no dispute that they inhabit the land and have for several hundreds of years. There is no dispute that they have a history in that land. The discussion is on whether or not they developed a distinct identity and whether or not it is strong enough to establish a national identity. And whether or not it could be said that they ALREADY have a State with territory (Jordan). Those are legitimate questions.

What? I wasn’t defining it in comparison to Jewish identity, you were the one brought that up and I was responding to what YOU had said.

Those are not the questions being asked however. When people are going on insisting the Palestinians are a fake people, who should go back to the Arabian peninsula (that was Sixties), they ARE disputing the fact they have a history there. Several hundreds? How about several thousand?

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is a wonder you call such questioning “legitimate” when it’s only purpose is to deny identity. The difference is merely one of scale, not INTENT. Ask yourself, what purpose is there in perpetrating the “Palestinians are a fake people” canard? Why do people insist on pushing it?

What is their motive Shusha?

Well, ultimately, I believe the motive of people like rylah, Sixties, and myself, among others is the survival of the Jewish people in the face of an existential threat, specifically by the larger Arab world. That is the CONTEXT for the Jewish people.

IF the Arab Palestinian people exist ONLY to counter and and erase and replace the Jewish people, and if they can't develop an identity OUTSIDE of that, and if their national liberation movement DEPENDS on ending Jewish sovereignty and self-determination, THEN their legitimacy as a NATIONAL movement SHOULD be questioned.

IF the Arab Palestinians exist independent of any definition of Jewish self-determination, sovereignty, entitlement to their own history, homeland and monuments, THEN they should be able to demonstrate that. Its been a hundred years and we are all still waiting. They don't seem to have the ability to form an independent nation. Why not? Fundamentally, why haven't they?

In other words, Team Israel is not denying the Arab Palestinians the RIGHT to be a "real people" -- we are acknowledging the fact that they have not yet met the criteria. Just as they have not met the criteria for Statehood. There is no evil motive in that.

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

They are from the Arabian Peninsula. They say so themselves.

You will not even believe what they say.

Their deep identity is of being Arabs, and Muslims.

Just as Germans will tell you that they come from Germany and that their culture is deeply ingrained in them, so is the Arab IDENTITY to the Arab people, no matter if they are in Arabia, the rest of Asia, North Africa or anywhere else.


Is it not the same with the Japanese, Chinese and any other people who created their identity thousands of years ago?

Being an Arab is their main identity. Then a Muslim.

The Palestinian identity is new. It is from only 1964, tell yourself what you will.

And as Susha, I and others have repeated too many times......

Their Palestinian identity is centered in wanting Israel destroyed, and that land returned to the hands of Muslims, ANY Muslims.

Why......do you think they did not complain for one day during the duration of the Ottoman Empire on that land?

 

[Shusha]

No I am not misusing it when the argument is made that they are not indigenous ti the area. Then yes, it IS relevant. The particular conversation it was used in was NOT discussing national liberation movements but ORIGINS.

The ORIGINS of the Arab peoples in Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Roman Empire and the Arab Empire and the Ottoman Empire is historical. The Arab people in that territory are the product of an invading culture upon an existing indigenous culture. You don't need to test for genetics for that and the whole idea is reprehensible.

The question on the table is the ORIGIN of a specific Arab Palestinian culture as differentiated from other surrounding Arab cultures, particularly one which is NATIONAL in origin. There is no genetic test for that.

That's because national and cultural identities and therefore origins are not based on genetics. So yes, you are the one misusing it.

 

[Sixties Fan]

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

See? Even you have to define Arab Palestinian identity in comparison and contrast to Jewish identity.

There is no dispute that they inhabit the land and have for several hundreds of years. There is no dispute that they have a history in that land. The discussion is on whether or not they developed a distinct identity and whether or not it is strong enough to establish a national identity. And whether or not it could be said that they ALREADY have a State with territory (Jordan). Those are legitimate questions.

What? I wasn’t defining it in comparison to Jewish identity, you were the one brought that up and I was responding to what YOU had said.

Those are not the questions being asked however. When people are going on insisting the Palestinians are a fake people, who should go back to the Arabian peninsula (that was Sixties), they ARE disputing the fact they have a history there. Several hundreds? How about several thousand?

Not several thousands .

It is a historical fact that the Arabs invaded the Land of Israel 1400 years ago. They were not living there for "thousands of years" . That is what Abbas has been repeating.

That is what others are now, since 1948, or 1973, repeating.

That the Arabs are the indigenous people for over 10,000 years.
True?

That the Jews are nothing but European colonizing invaders.
Is that true?

We are not telling the truth, but Abbas and all who deny any Jewish history to the area are telling the truth?

Are Abbas and so many people out there telling the world that there is no connection between "Palestine" and the Jewish people or not? And when that denial start?

 

[Coyote]

No I am not misusing it when the argument is made that they are not indigenous ti the area. Then yes, it IS relevant. The particular conversation it was used in was NOT discussing national liberation movements but ORIGINS.

The ORIGINS of the Arab peoples in Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Roman Empire and the Arab Empire and the Ottoman Empire is historical. The Arab people in that territory are the product of an invading culture upon an existing indigenous culture. You don't need to test for genetics for that and the whole idea is reprehensible.

The question on the table is the ORIGIN of a specific Arab Palestinian culture as differentiated from other surrounding Arab cultures, particularly one which is NATIONAL in origin. There is no genetic test for that.

That's because national and cultural identities and therefore origins are not based on genetics. So yes, you are the one misusing it.

I agree with what you say but you are talking about cultures and I am talking about people and your answer is NOT what Sixties, for example, is saying. They do not believe there is any indigenous aspect to the Palestinians. As she has said repeatedly they came from The Arabian peninsula. And in answer to THAT population genetics holds an answer that should not be considered reprehensible and is not being misused. What else would you use to answer dishonest claims on the origins of various populations?

 

[Coyote]

That is denying it. They have their own history and their own homeland. They do not need monuments. They exist independently of Jewish Israeli’s by virtue of having inhabited that land.

Again, over and over sixties and Rylah reiterate that they are essentially fake, and according to Sixties, all came from the Arabian peninsula. They repeatedly deny them a distinct identity. You just do not see it.

See? Even you have to define Arab Palestinian identity in comparison and contrast to Jewish identity.

There is no dispute that they inhabit the land and have for several hundreds of years. There is no dispute that they have a history in that land. The discussion is on whether or not they developed a distinct identity and whether or not it is strong enough to establish a national identity. And whether or not it could be said that they ALREADY have a State with territory (Jordan). Those are legitimate questions.

What? I wasn’t defining it in comparison to Jewish identity, you were the one brought that up and I was responding to what YOU had said.

Those are not the questions being asked however. When people are going on insisting the Palestinians are a fake people, who should go back to the Arabian peninsula (that was Sixties), they ARE disputing the fact they have a history there. Several hundreds? How about several thousand?

Not several thousands .

It is a historical fact that the Arabs invaded the Land of Israel 1400 years ago. They were not living there for "thousands of years" . That is what Abbas has been repeating.

That is what others are now, since 1948, or 1973, repeating.

That the Arabs are the indigenous people for over 10,000 years.
True?

That the Jews are nothing but European colonizing invaders.
Is that true?

We are not telling the truth, but Abbas and all who deny any Jewish history to the area are telling the truth?

Are Abbas and so many people out there telling the world that there is no connection between "Palestine" and the Jewish people or not? And when that denial start?

See what I mean Shusha ? According to Sixties Palestinians are all descendants of invading Arabs. But it is a “misuse” of genetics to point out that isn’t exactly so?

 

[Coyote]

FYI, Abbas is neither an historian nor a scientist. He is a politician.

 

[Sixties Fan]

No I am not misusing it when the argument is made that they are not indigenous ti the area. Then yes, it IS relevant. The particular conversation it was used in was NOT discussing national liberation movements but ORIGINS.

The ORIGINS of the Arab peoples in Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Roman Empire and the Arab Empire and the Ottoman Empire is historical. The Arab people in that territory are the product of an invading culture upon an existing indigenous culture. You don't need to test for genetics for that and the whole idea is reprehensible.

The question on the table is the ORIGIN of a specific Arab Palestinian culture as differentiated from other surrounding Arab cultures, particularly one which is NATIONAL in origin. There is no genetic test for that.

That's because national and cultural identities and therefore origins are not based on genetics. So yes, you are the one misusing it.

I agree with what you say but you are talking about cultures and I am talking about people and your answer is NOT what Sixties, for example, is saying. They do not believe there is any indigenous aspect to the Palestinians. As she has said repeatedly they came from The Arabian peninsula. And in answer to THAT population genetics holds an answer that should not be considered reprehensible and is not being misused. What else would you use to answer dishonest claims on the origins of various populations?

Aren't the Arabs being dishonest when they apply European origins to the Ashkenazi?

What do you think their purpose in saying that......and only since 1948.....would be?

The Arabs do not deny that their indigenous origin, language and culture comes from Arabia.

So.....why do you and so many others are denying that?

The indigenous, language, culture, history originates from the Land of Israel.

Both have many books attesting to what I just wrote above.

Again, the Japanese moving to Australia and now living there for hundreds of years, does not negate their indigenous, cultural, historical and linguistic origins from being the Islands of Japan.

 

[Shusha]

When people are going on insisting the Palestinians are a fake people, who should go back to the Arabian peninsula (that was Sixties), they ARE disputing the fact they have a history there. Several hundreds? How about several thousand?

I said hundreds. I meant hundreds. The ARAB history in the territory goes back 1400 years. That is their identity. They are Arabs and they are Muslims and that is a direct result of an invading culture 1400 years ago.

Their identity as "Palestinians" goes back only decades.

That's fine. They can still call themselves indigenous and still have rights to self-determination. They don't need thousands of years. Those years belong to the Jewish people who were the pre-invasion culture with a continued presence.

The only way to make the Arab Palestinians "thousands of years in the territory" is to change their identity and restore them to the identity of the pre-invasion cultures. Which would make them Jewish.

 

[Shusha]

See what I mean Shusha ? According to Sixties Palestinians are all descendants of invading Arabs. But it is a “misuse” of genetics to point out that isn’t exactly so?

Yes. And also certainly contrary to fact. The Arab Palestinians are the result of an invading culture (that would be the Arabs, whose origins are elsewhere) and the local indigenous peoples (the culture who originated in that place before invading cultures arrived). Surely, you are not going DENY that, are you?!