CDZ Which is more important: Unity or Diversity?

jwoodie

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2012
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It seems to me that, despite slogans to the contrary, what has made America strong has been a commonality of values and a belief that we were Americans first and foremost. However, in recent years we have been bombarded with an greater emphasis on our differences than our similarities (as a way of dividing us into segmented groups competing with each other for a larger slice of the pie). Can the American experiment survive this fractionation, or will it face the inevitable disintegration that has befallen other attempts at pluralistic confederation?
 
I have hope the globalists won't succeed, and once again we will come together.
 
This observation about what the U.S. has become is accurate. the interview is about Jewish issues but his points on nation versus state are spot on.

Rabbi Schiller: Well, because Hirsch really felt himself to be a German, a German citizen, and he sincerely wanted Jews to be genuine patriots caring about the German nation and people, (although he was wary of Jewish/gentile socializing) everything he writes on this subject offers us an alternative to our current approach. The problem, however, is very complex. It is complex in part because the kind of nation which Hirsch was urging us to be patriotic to has almost ceased to exist, insofar as almost all western societies have gone over to a contractual, liberal, capitalist view of the state. So I don't know if Hirschian patriotism is relevant in a western world in which a concept of the nation as more than a contractual agreement no longer exists. There's almost no patriotism, for example, to America the nation anymore. That died either in 1865, 1932, or when Senator McCarthy was censured or maybe when General McCarthur died. It certainly doesn't exist anymore outside of, say, West Point. It's important to make the distinction between a 'nation' and a 'state'. If you were to ask Americans what America is they would point to the Constitution, freedom, democracy. If you would ask a Russian, an Englishman, or a Frenchman, they wouldn't equate their particular form of government with their nation. They believe that a nation exists outside of the government. A Russian loves Mother Russia, the nation, although he may despise the government. An American can make no such distinction. There is no America outside of the American system of government. Now, even in European countries there is a movement towards this contractual conception of the realm, and therefore Hirschian patriotism becomes almost outdated in a west that has moved beyond a spiritual conception of the nation.

Judaism, Culture and the Gentile World: A Conversation with Rabbi Mayer Schiller

He also makes a good point re the nation no longer existing after Lincoln's dictatorship; the original American Republic ended at Ft. Sumter for all practical purposes.
 
America has always had people who claimed foreigners were destroying the nation. The first immigration laws were passed to cull Chinese and German immigration.

Fact is, 99% of the people in this country are just trying to live their lives and do what's best for their families. As it's always been.

The micks, and dago's, and wetbacks, and n*ggers always bickered until the shit hit the fan and it was time to defend the nation.

So demonization of foreigners is nothing new in the U.S. And if you think this is the most divided we've ever been, you forget one time we went to war and tried to kill each other. Now we are living the most peaceful period in human history, and people have the luxury of blaming others for not being wealthy enough, or for not being fulfilled enough, or whatever. Hell, things are so stable over here we get to decide that one of the most important things in our lives is religious bickering by 3rd world desert dwellers on the opposite side of the planet. Got to keep things in perspective.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as such racist rants always are.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
 
Diversity has no inherent value.

Unity helps get things done, and people work together.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.


You attempt to made this about the poster is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

NOt the type of behavior you would expect from someone who thought they had a winning logical or rational argument.
 
This entire country was built on mass immigration.

Not really; it was hamstrung by it. Importing mass poverty never built anything but more poverty. You confuse a handful of business people getting very cheap temporary labor with 'prosperity'.

I can see it's pointless to respond to you again.

whatever rings your bell. The history of mass immigration proves the piont whether it fits somebody's ideological fantasies or not.

Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants.

lol you know squat about me personally, so you're just having a tantrum here.

Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.

Another pointless 'point'; my family, and everybody else's, would be far better off today if immigration were moderated and restricted to a reasonable number every year, and stopped altogether during economic slowdowns and until the previous immigrants could be properly assimilated and allowed to get on their feet. The American middle class didn't start to grow to appreciable numbers until the 1920's, when immigration was finally restricted and limits imposed to certain demographics and remained so for the next 45 or so years. Quit reading the globalist nonsense; they're liars and racketeers. Here's a good introduction to labor markets and the effects of mass immigration:

American Economic Development in Historical Perspective : Thomas Weiss : 9780804720847

whenever you get around to knowing what you're talking about get back to us.
 
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Diversity has no inherent value.

Unity helps get things done, and people work together.

Good point.

Diversity as defined by race, gender or ethnicity is meaningless...those are simply accidents of birth. Combining skills, talents and problem solving techniques gets things accomplished...no matter how pale or tan ones skin is. So my vote goes to unity, too.
 
Diversity has no inherent value.

Unity helps get things done, and people work together.

Good point.

Diversity as defined by race, gender or ethnicity is meaningless...those are simply accidents of birth. Combining skills, talents and problem solving techniques gets things accomplished...no matter how pale or tan ones skin is. So my vote goes to unity, too.


I was at a party a while back talking to the younger wife of a younger friend of mine, and the subject of diversity came up.

I pointed out that her and I could not be more different despite the approximate sameness of our skin tone.

Diversity of ideas and thought.

She had to admit that that was a valid point.
 
America has always had people who claimed foreigners were destroying the nation. The first immigration laws were passed to cull Chinese and German immigration.

Fact is, 99% of the people in this country are just trying to live their lives and do what's best for their families. As it's always been.

The micks, and dago's, and wetbacks, and n*ggers always bickered until the shit hit the fan and it was time to defend the nation.

So demonization of foreigners is nothing new in the U.S. And if you think this is the most divided we've ever been, you forget one time we went to war and tried to kill each other. Now we are living the most peaceful period in human history, and people have the luxury of blaming others for not being wealthy enough, or for not being fulfilled enough, or whatever. Hell, things are so stable over here we get to decide that one of the most important things in our lives is religious bickering by 3rd world desert dwellers on the opposite side of the planet. Got to keep things in perspective.

Just waiting to play your new "immigration" card, eh? Too bad it is irrelevant to the OP. Maybe next time...
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as such racist rants always are.

This is very interesting. I am hesitant to agree, give me something to research. Which immigration are we referring to?
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.


You attempt to made this about the poster is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

NOt the type of behavior you would expect from someone who thought they had a winning logical or rational argument.

I disagree. What is it, 99% of the people in the most powerful nation on Earth are immigrants? The remaining are the few natives left to live in concentrated camps so European Americans could feel as if they did not commit genocide.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as such racist rants always are.

This is very interesting. I am hesitant to agree, give me something to research. Which immigration are we referring to?

Pretty much all of it when they came in massive wide open waves after 1820 right up to 1920. One paper, which is longer and more detailed in the book than it is in the working paper at NBER has some references to its effects. A couple of the other essays in the book have a more detailed analysis of the 19th century labor markets, but I haven't found them as separate papers that aren't behind a pay wall yet; this one is more general and throws in political economy issues as well; as the title indicates its a spread of many converging factors at points in time and trying to come up with a predictive economic model, but it has some history in it nonetheless. It's free and available, anyway.

Problems in Modeling Complex Dynamic interactions: The Political Realignment of the 1850s

Problems in Modeling Complex Dynamic interactions: The Political Realignment of the 1850s
Robert W. Fogel
NBER Historical Working Paper No. 12
Issued in January 1993
NBER Program(s): DAE


The aim of this paper is to break open the stochastic component of a maj or political change and to show that what seems like the product of purely chance events is the particular conjunction of processes, each of which is definable in a systematic way, that provide collectively a favorable context in which purely chance events operate. It is only in a particular context that the purely chance events became decisive in bringing about a particular political outcome. Section 1 emphasizes that Lincoln's margin of victory in 1860 was so small that anyone of numerous chance events could have resulted in his defeat. Sections 2-4 outline the intergenerational, cohort, and period changes and events that created a context favorable for the political realignment of the l850s. Section 5 describes the key chance events of 1855 -1856, the absence of any of which could have prevented the formation of a major national Republican party in 1856, as well as the chance (or at least exogenous) events of 1857-1859, the absence of which could have led to splits in the Republican party that would have insured the victory of a proslavery candidate for the Presidency in 1860. Section 6 deals with the problems and advantages of turning the theory of the political realignment of the l850s implicit in sections 2-5 into an explicit, testable mathematical model. Section 7 explains why it is impossible to produce a general theory of political realignments that would have significant predictive power.

The pdf format download link is right below the abstract.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.


You attempt to made this about the poster is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

NOt the type of behavior you would expect from someone who thought they had a winning logical or rational argument.

I disagree. What is it, 99% of the people in the most powerful nation on Earth are immigrants? The remaining are the few natives left to live in concentrated camps so European Americans could feel as if they did not commit genocide.

100% of the entire planet are 'immigrants' by that nonsensical definition, yet for some reason the focus is only the U.S. as if it is the only country that is supposed to commit suicide and with wide open borders, i.e. just a another racist bias against whites while ignoring the rest of the planet and its history. Ours is pretty mild in comparison; other cultures on the planet wouldn't have bothered with all the fuss of setting up and financing reservations for the losers, they always just exterminate them after defeating them. The natives weren't particularly deserving of pity or have any moral high ground to stake out in the first place, its just a pseudo-intellectual fad to glamourize 'indigenous natives' and create fictional attributes for them to generate a fantasy narrative against 'modernism' and western societies, i.e. hate speech campaigns built on racism and sociopathic hatred of Christians at root. Many of the small tribes wouldn't exist at all, they would have been exterminated by other tribes if it hadn't been for American armies protecting them, just ask the Osage, for one.
 
Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as they always are.
"Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

:rolleyes:


More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.


You attempt to made this about the poster is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

NOt the type of behavior you would expect from someone who thought they had a winning logical or rational argument.

I disagree. What is it, 99% of the people in the most powerful nation on Earth are immigrants? The remaining are the few natives left to live in concentrated camps so European Americans could feel as if they did not commit genocide.


Immigrants are people who move to a new nation.

People born here for multiple generations are not immigrants.

Trying to change the meaning of common words is also not the behavior of someone who thought they have a winning logical or rational argument.
 

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