CDZ Which is more important: Unity or Diversity?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by jwoodie, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. jwoodie
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    jwoodie Gold Member Supporting Member

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    It seems to me that, despite slogans to the contrary, what has made America strong has been a commonality of values and a belief that we were Americans first and foremost. However, in recent years we have been bombarded with an greater emphasis on our differences than our similarities (as a way of dividing us into segmented groups competing with each other for a larger slice of the pie). Can the American experiment survive this fractionation, or will it face the inevitable disintegration that has befallen other attempts at pluralistic confederation?
     
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  2. depotoo
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    depotoo Gold Member

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    I have hope the globalists won't succeed, and once again we will come together.
     
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  3. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    This observation about what the U.S. has become is accurate. the interview is about Jewish issues but his points on nation versus state are spot on.

    Rabbi Schiller: Well, because Hirsch really felt himself to be a German, a German citizen, and he sincerely wanted Jews to be genuine patriots caring about the German nation and people, (although he was wary of Jewish/gentile socializing) everything he writes on this subject offers us an alternative to our current approach. The problem, however, is very complex. It is complex in part because the kind of nation which Hirsch was urging us to be patriotic to has almost ceased to exist, insofar as almost all western societies have gone over to a contractual, liberal, capitalist view of the state. So I don't know if Hirschian patriotism is relevant in a western world in which a concept of the nation as more than a contractual agreement no longer exists. There's almost no patriotism, for example, to America the nation anymore. That died either in 1865, 1932, or when Senator McCarthy was censured or maybe when General McCarthur died. It certainly doesn't exist anymore outside of, say, West Point. It's important to make the distinction between a 'nation' and a 'state'. If you were to ask Americans what America is they would point to the Constitution, freedom, democracy. If you would ask a Russian, an Englishman, or a Frenchman, they wouldn't equate their particular form of government with their nation. They believe that a nation exists outside of the government. A Russian loves Mother Russia, the nation, although he may despise the government. An American can make no such distinction. There is no America outside of the American system of government. Now, even in European countries there is a movement towards this contractual conception of the realm, and therefore Hirschian patriotism becomes almost outdated in a west that has moved beyond a spiritual conception of the nation.

    Judaism, Culture and the Gentile World: A Conversation with Rabbi Mayer Schiller

    He also makes a good point re the nation no longer existing after Lincoln's dictatorship; the original American Republic ended at Ft. Sumter for all practical purposes.
     
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  4. TheOldSchool
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    TheOldSchool Diamond Member

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    America has always had people who claimed foreigners were destroying the nation. The first immigration laws were passed to cull Chinese and German immigration.

    Fact is, 99% of the people in this country are just trying to live their lives and do what's best for their families. As it's always been.

    The micks, and dago's, and wetbacks, and n*ggers always bickered until the shit hit the fan and it was time to defend the nation.

    So demonization of foreigners is nothing new in the U.S. And if you think this is the most divided we've ever been, you forget one time we went to war and tried to kill each other. Now we are living the most peaceful period in human history, and people have the luxury of blaming others for not being wealthy enough, or for not being fulfilled enough, or whatever. Hell, things are so stable over here we get to decide that one of the most important things in our lives is religious bickering by 3rd world desert dwellers on the opposite side of the planet. Got to keep things in perspective.
     
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  5. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    Mass immigration has always been bad for the U.S., for immigrants as well as natives. It was one of the main causes of the Civil War and the end of the first Republic. The above soapbox narrative is as ignorant and stupid as such racist rants always are.
     
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  6. TheOldSchool
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    TheOldSchool Diamond Member

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    "Yeah immigration has always just been terrible for the U.S.," he typed from the most powerful country in the world, that was built by immigrants, while living in the most peaceful period in the history of humankind.

    :rolleyes:
     
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  7. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    More babbling of memes, no refutation duly noted. Mass immigration causes bigger slums, lower standards of living, poverty, political disruption, and violence; always has, always will.
     
  8. Correll
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    Correll Platinum Member

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    Diversity has no inherent value.

    Unity helps get things done, and people work together.
     
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  9. TheOldSchool
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    TheOldSchool Diamond Member

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    This entire country was built on mass immigration. I can see it's pointless to respond to you again. Good luck continuing to blame your personal failures on immigrants. Once upon a time, your family were immigrants, and dumb rubes blamed them for their problems. The cycle continues.
     
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  10. Correll
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    Correll Platinum Member

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    You attempt to made this about the poster is the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.

    NOt the type of behavior you would expect from someone who thought they had a winning logical or rational argument.
     
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