Where Was God?

[Joz]

Individual hardships like one's baby getting sick and dying.

Ok, let's discuss this. But I hafta warn you that I might just get rather shitty. Please understand it isn't directed at YOU, personally; you just might be the recipient of some of my anger.

My son died 3 weeks before his 15th birthday. No warning; it just happened. I begged God for my son's life as the EMTs worked over him. Think I haven't had questions? Think I have a 'right' to question God? One side tells me I'm insignificant 'in the big picture'. The other side tells me I was important enough for Christ to give His life. I was once told that I should be happy that I will one day again see my son. I am grateful for that opportunity. Somehow that isn't all that comforting. Not when I have to live without him every single breath I take. So, which is it?

 

[MissileMan]

Ok, let's discuss this. But I hafta warn you that I might just get rather shitty. Please understand it isn't directed at YOU, personally; you just might be the recipient of some of my anger.

My son died 3 weeks before his 15th birthday. No warning; it just happened. I begged God for my son's life as the EMTs worked over him. Think I haven't had questions? Think I have a 'right' to question God? One side tells me I'm insignificant 'in the big picture'. The other side tells me I was important enough for Christ to give His life. I was once told that I should be happy that I will one day again see my son. I am grateful for that opportunity. Somehow that isn't all that comforting. Not when I have to live without him every single breath I take. So, which is it?

There are those who will tell you that your faith is being tested. Things like this happen to people from across the entire spectrum of religious belief, from the devoutly pious to atheists. What I can't understand is why someone would believe that a deity, whom they worship, would rip their guts out intentionally to see if they truly believe. It sounds more like the little kid, magnifying glass, and ant pile scenario to me. If God is truly omniscient, doesn't he already know if you are truly faithful?

 

[5stringJeff]

There are those who will tell you that your faith is being tested. Things like this happen to people from across the entire spectrum of religious belief, from the devoutly pious to atheists. What I can't understand is why someone would believe that a deity, whom they worship, would rip their guts out intentionally to see if they truly believe. It sounds more like the little kid, magnifying glass, and ant pile scenario to me. If God is truly omniscient, doesn't he already know if you are truly faithful?

Great question. My (short) answer would be that faith develops, kind of like muscle. We might think we are pretty strong, but then something happens (like we try to help a friend move furniture) and we find out we aren't as strong as we thought. So we take steps to get stronger, like working out. In the same way, maybe we think that our faith is strong, but then something happens to us that shows us that our faith isn't as strong as we thought. Does it happen intentionally? Maybe, maybe not. But when it happens, we have a chance to strengthen our faith.

 

[no1tovote4]

Ok, let's discuss this. But I hafta warn you that I might just get rather shitty. Please understand it isn't directed at YOU, personally; you just might be the recipient of some of my anger.

My son died 3 weeks before his 15th birthday. No warning; it just happened. I begged God for my son's life as the EMTs worked over him. Think I haven't had questions? Think I have a 'right' to question God? One side tells me I'm insignificant 'in the big picture'. The other side tells me I was important enough for Christ to give His life. I was once told that I should be happy that I will one day again see my son. I am grateful for that opportunity. Somehow that isn't all that comforting. Not when I have to live without him every single breath I take. So, which is it?

I can only imagine the loss you feel and sympathize with your feelings.

I will try my best to answer this in the context of Christianity and how my Pastor answered like questions when I was a child.

Everyone has a right to question God, we just cannot expect the answer that we want. According to the bible, this kind of suffering didn't exist before original sin. While the original creation didn't have this kind of suffering, it was still not caused by God but by human shortfalls. Yes, God sent his Son for your salvation, he did so that when tragedies such as this befall you one can be assured of the result, and so that we had a chance to once again enter into the presence of the Lord.

 

[Joz]

I can only imagine the loss you feel and sympathize with your feelings....
According to the bible, this kind of suffering didn't exist before original sin.

Thank you.

This also answers Missleman's question about why GOD would do such a thing to 'test' one's faith. I can't believe a God of love would do this, as a test. I was always taught that God has a million different ways to work His plan. And this was the best He could come up with??! And, too, God usually tells you what He's going to do. It usually isn't a surprise. As I said before,because of sin, the world was set in motion on a course of chaos. I think I got caught in the crossfire.

Of course, I still have a million questions, few answers and am rather pissed at God. He & I aren't on the best of terms. I'm expecting HIM to set this all right, somehow.

I have to tell that MissleMan PM'd me with his sympathy and not wanting to post further as to not cause me any further hurt. I found this to be a VERY KIND gesture. I assured him that maybe thru respectful discussion I might find some needed answers; I spend most of my time in a state of confusion.

 

[MissileMan]

Great question. My (short) answer would be that faith develops, kind of like muscle. We might think we are pretty strong, but then something happens (like we try to help a friend move furniture) and we find out we aren't as strong as we thought. So we take steps to get stronger, like working out. In the same way, maybe we think that our faith is strong, but then something happens to us that shows us that our faith isn't as strong as we thought. Does it happen intentionally? Maybe, maybe not. But when it happens, we have a chance to strengthen our faith.

So you don't believe in "tests of faith", but that if God finds your faith lacking he will deliver a "wake up call" designed to put you back on the path. That theory might actually be logical except that these "wake up calls" are delivered to the totally-faithful, not-so-faithful, and the not-faithful-at-all, in a random manner. It also provides no explanation of why, for instance, a four-year old child would lose both parents in a car accident. Surely, such a child would be too young to have developed any faith at all, let alone a faith in need of a workout.

 

[5stringJeff]

So you don't believe in "tests of faith", but that if God finds your faith lacking he will deliver a "wake up call" designed to put you back on the path. That theory might actually be logical except that these "wake up calls" are delivered to the totally-faithful, not-so-faithful, and the not-faithful-at-all, in a random manner. It also provides no explanation of why, for instance, a four-year old child would lose both parents in a car accident. Surely, such a child would be too young to have developed any faith at all, let alone a faith in need of a workout.

Again, I'm not saying that God purposefully designs tests in our lives by causing children to die, cars to wreck, jobs to be lost, etc. That stuff happens, but it's not like God is sitting up in heaven waiting to screw up people's lives.

 

[MissileMan]

Again, I'm not saying that God purposefully designs tests in our lives by causing children to die, cars to wreck, jobs to be lost, etc. That stuff happens, but it's not like God is sitting up in heaven waiting to screw up people's lives.

I too am a believer of the stuff happens rule, but I'm trying to understand what things you attribute to God's will, and what things are mere happenstance, and apparently, I'm not doing a very good job of it.

And while you may not personally believe in designed tests, there are many out there who believe that God's hand is in everything that happens. I once worked with a very religious guy who said to me, "If God wants me to get this promotion, I will. If I don't get promoted then he didn't want me to have it". He was using his faith as a built-in cop-out.

 

[no1tovote4]

I too am a believer of the stuff happens rule, but I'm trying to understand what things you attribute to God's will, and what things are mere happenstance, and apparently, I'm not doing a very good job of it.

And while you may not personally believe in designed tests, there are many out there who believe that God's hand is in everything that happens. I once worked with a very religious guy who said to me, "If God wants me to get this promotion, I will. If I don't get promoted then he didn't want me to have it". He was using his faith as a built-in cop-out.

It sounds like that guy needed a good dose of Ben Franklin's advice. "God helps those who help themselves."

 

[MissileMan]

It sounds like that guy needed a good dose of Ben Franklin's advice. "God helps those who help themselves."

Couldn't have said it better!

 

[dilloduck]

Suffering and death have always existed and always will----only man can take a small snapshot of existance like this and try to figure out what it meant. Everything else in the universe simply moves on. "Wake-up" calls occur 24/7.

 

[Bonnie]

Why is it God's fault?

When faced with a tragedy such as this, or any for that matter, why does God get the blame? It reallly depends whether you believe in 'good' AND 'evil'. You really can't have one without the other.
Since my son died, God & I haven't been on the best of terms. But that's between Him & me. But, when sin entered the world, certain events were set in motion; and Satan became the ruler of the world. So we have tragedies, sickness, death, uncertainty, problems...... God cannot interfere. He has to let this world 'run it's course' until He returns to claim His faithful. It's just that simple.

Absolutely agree with everything you said!!

I would add that God takes tragedy and turns it around if we ask. Look at all the aid and help going to South Asia, or any tragedy for that matter. Horrible things happen and then God's own go to work, and THAT is his doing.

 

[Joz]

That theory might actually be logical except that these "wake up calls" are delivered to the totally-faithful, not-so-faithful, and the not-faithful-at-all, in a random manner. It also provides no explanation of why,.......

Once again, you have to believe in the Bible. Matthew 5:45 says,"for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

 

[oxbow3]

My philosophy is kinda like Ben Franklin's. Occam's Razor tells me that there is no excuse when tragedies like this happen. 160,000+ dead people just to build faith in the survivors, to prove a point or test other people's charity or some other explanation? It seems unlikely. The rest of the survivors are gonna die from starvation and diseases, children are gonna grow up without parents, and this is the best case that its ever been. When tragedies happenned before present-day technological advances, people just sufferred. No one could warn them about earthquakes, no one could help them survive the crisis after the disaster, or rebuild. There might be a simple explanantion to these things that my weak human mind can't understand, but I can't say so one way or another (having a weak human mind n'all).

It's best to act as if God doesn't exist and to work out our own problems without depending on him to save us from destruction or set things right. The last minute rescue only happens in movies anyway.

Besides, I figure even if God doesn't exist, doesn't mean that there is no afterlife. Even science tells us that nothing is wasted, not matter, not energy, nothing is ever destroyed. It just changes form. That's in the second law of thermodynamics, as well as the theory of relativity. If not one atom in existence is wasted, why would the spark of life, the soul, whatever you want to call that thing, be ?

 

[Shattered]

It's best to act as if God doesn't exist and to work out our own problems without depending on him to save us from destruction or set things right. The last minute rescue only happens in movies anyway.

 

[Avatar4321]

its interesting, only people who dont know God are the ones who are asking why God let people die. Yes dying can be horrible. but its part of life. I grieve with those who lost their lives and lost loved ones. Ive given what aid i can to help them out. But sooner or later everyone was going to die eventually. Should we be angry at God that death is in the world? Thats our fault not His.

God has already given more than anyone else for the people who may be suffering or who have died in this Tsunami. He gave them and us His Son. And because of Christ and the reality of the resurrection everyone who died will rise again in glory. What more can God give than that precious gift? The people who are upset at God and blaming Him are the ones who have no faith in the resurrection. Anyone who knows this simple truth may mourn but we will also look forward to the day when our brothers on the other side of the world will rise again.

And whats really amazing is despite this catastrophic event God can use it to better humanity. look at the response we have given. look at how much love and desire to help has filled the hearts of men and women around the world. Look at the good that has come in the hearts of men. God's wisdom is greater than ours. He allows things that may be difficult for us to comprehend immediately but we will someday.

God most often fills the things we need through the service of others. The service I have seen gives me no doubt that God lives. True goodness does not come from the absence of evil, but from overcoming evil. We all have to go through the refiners fire to see what we will become.

 

[5stringJeff]

Besides, I figure even if God doesn't exist, doesn't mean that there is no afterlife. Even science tells us that nothing is wasted, not matter, not energy, nothing is ever destroyed. It just changes form. That's in the second law of thermodynamics, as well as the theory of relativity. If not one atom in existence is wasted, why would the spark of life, the soul, whatever you want to call that thing, be ?

The only problem with that is that while the sum of all energy and matter is constant, the state of something may change from energy to matter and back again. It could very well be that, if God does not exist, that our "soul" doesn't exist either, since it is a non-quantifiable part of us, and that when we die, we just take a nap that lasts forever.

Not that I believe any of that, BTW. I certainly believe in the existence of both God and the soul. But I believe that our soul is spiritual, i.e. not made of matter and/or energy that we can measure.

 

[dilloduck]

The only problem with that is that while the sum of all energy and matter is constant, the state of something may change from energy to matter and back again. It could very well be that, if God does not exist, that our "soul" doesn't exist either, since it is a non-quantifiable part of us, and that when we die, we just take a nap that lasts forever.

Not that I believe any of that, BTW. I certainly believe in the existence of both God and the soul. But I believe that our soul is spiritual, i.e. not made of matter and/or energy that we can measure.

and a good thing it can't be measured by us--can you imagine what would happen if there were a "soul scale" ??

 

[Bonnie]

and a good thing it can't be measured by us--can you imagine what would happen if there were a "soul scale" ??

I have heard of a few cases in which a family member was observed dying in the hospital or home, and their loved ones actually saw a white cloud rising form the person at the moment of death........Of course this can probably never be measured, and only those that are predisposed to believing in a soul or after life would be more inclined to believe it.

 

[oxbow3]

The only problem with that is that while the sum of all energy and matter is constant, the state of something may change from energy to matter and back again. It could very well be that, if God does not exist, that our "soul" doesn't exist either, since it is a non-quantifiable part of us, and that when we die, we just take a nap that lasts forever.

Yea, I didn't intend to posit that our soul follows the same laws as physical reality, just that it gives me hope when I see that not a single atom is wasted in creation. Another thing that physicists are just beginning to understand is the vast number of dimensions that exist outside the ones we can experience. I believe they have counted at least 40 theoretical ones last time I checked. It is very possible that one of these is where souls come from and go to. Either way, I believe as you said that

our soul is spiritual, i.e. not made of matter and/or energy that we can measure.

It really doesn't matter to me where they go, and whether the Bible or science comes closer to the mark on this. Either way, my research into near death experiences, etc., as well as my own experiences give me hope that there is more to life than this body of fragile meat.