Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[Uncensored2008]

I thought the question here was at what point between one week and 8 months the line should be drawn for legal abortions.

That was already answered.

From a medical, scientific, and ethical perspective, at the point that both heart and brain activity are present.

About 6 weeks gestation.

 

[hortysir]

I trust you read these before you posted them correct?


Every day two to three women die in the United States from pregnancy-related complications. According to the report , Deadly Delivery: The Maternal Health Care Crisis in the USA from Amnesty International about half of those deaths are believed to be preventable.


A key concern is the lack of prenatal care. Women who do not receive proper prenatal care are three to four times more likely to die than women who do.

Shocking number of American women die from childbirth, pregnancy

Even with pre-natal care, women can suffer adverse effects from pregnancy, labor, and delivery that exceed the adverse health risks of abortion.

Per 100,000 pregnancies, 13 women die. Per 100,000 abortions, .6 women die. That means women are 22 times more likely to die from full-term labor/delivery than from an abortion. The complications and medical problems caused by full-term pregnancy and L/D are also much greater and more severe.

You are not entitled to force other people to experience these risks in order to shore up your ethical views.

How in the world have billions of women managed for eons and ages????

 

[Luissa]

I trust you read these before you posted them correct?


Every day two to three women die in the United States from pregnancy-related complications. According to the report , Deadly Delivery: The Maternal Health Care Crisis in the USA from Amnesty International about half of those deaths are believed to be preventable.


A key concern is the lack of prenatal care. Women who do not receive proper prenatal care are three to four times more likely to die than women who do.

Shocking number of American women die from childbirth, pregnancy

Even with pre-natal care, women can suffer adverse effects from pregnancy, labor, and delivery that exceed the adverse health risks of abortion.

Per 100,000 pregnancies, 13 women die. Per 100,000 abortions, .6 women die. That means women are 22 times more likely to die from full-term labor/delivery than from an abortion. The complications and medical problems caused by full-term pregnancy and L/D are also much greater and more severe.

You are not entitled to force other people to experience these risks in order to shore up your ethical views.

How in the world have billions of women managed for eons and ages????

They have had abortions for eons and ages by the way.

 

[hortysir]

Even with pre-natal care, women can suffer adverse effects from pregnancy, labor, and delivery that exceed the adverse health risks of abortion.

Per 100,000 pregnancies, 13 women die. Per 100,000 abortions, .6 women die. That means women are 22 times more likely to die from full-term labor/delivery than from an abortion. The complications and medical problems caused by full-term pregnancy and L/D are also much greater and more severe.

You are not entitled to force other people to experience these risks in order to shore up your ethical views.

How in the world have billions of women managed for eons and ages????

They have had abortions for eons and ages by the way.

Yep.

I've mellowed with age about abortion.

 

[Luissa]

I thought the question here was at what point between one week and 8 months the line should be drawn for legal abortions.

That was already answered.

From a medical, scientific, and ethical perspective, at the point that both heart and brain activity are present.

About 6 weeks gestation.

Using the Us method for measuring gestation? Because that would be about a week after someone finds out.

 

[Avorysuds]

I would say, you can abort at any time, just no Government funding for abortions, welfare for people that do it of any kind and no money to any place that provides abortions.

Let doctors and parents that want to do that do it. It’s their life, their choice, not yours.

 

[catzmeow]

Legally speaking, you're mistaken.

So you believe legality and ethics are one and the same?

Abortion up until breath is drawn is legal, does that make it ethical? Slavery was legal, was it ethical?

I notice you ducked the issue of when life begins.

When life begins isn't the issue. There's lots of life out there, and you probably end quite a bit of life daily every time you wash your hands. It's when sentient life begins.

 

[catzmeow]

From a medical, scientific, and ethical perspective, at the point that both heart and brain activity are present.

About 6 weeks gestation.

No. At 6 weeks, the fetal "brain" is beginning to form, but it does not function as you imagine a human brain functions. There are no discernible "brain waves." Nor has the fetus developed the ability to feel pain. That doesn't occur until around the 22-23rd weeks. Up until that point, the nerves aren't really connected to the "brain."

 

[Plasmaball]

According to one resource I read, the heartbeat starts at 18 days gestation in an unborn child.

As far as above is concerned, I am precluded from expressing any opinion that I may have on this delicate subject.

Have fun.

I'm pretty heavily biased in the matter, too.

But I honestly feel that the heartbeat makes it a Life and, as such, should be the line.

Since mine is divine knowledge of life in the womb based on one of King David's psalms (139) it is not in accordance with the two parameters listed above. That's all I can say. I'm so sorry, but I respect the OPs desire to conduct a debate on this issue that is clinical in nature, and not spiritually-based according to anyone's personal interpretation of faith, which it would be in my case since in my church, we have Old Testament scholars of full understanding sitting next to Planned Parenthood leaders and workers. (go figure).. lololol

..........

anyways 20 weeks has always been my cut off, but my compromise has been the issue would be dead if such an agreement was reached.

 

[Noomi]

I thought the question here was at what point between one week and 8 months the line should be drawn for legal abortions.

That was already answered.

From a medical, scientific, and ethical perspective, at the point that both heart and brain activity are present.

About 6 weeks gestation.

The line cannot be drawn at 6 weeks, because most women don't even know they are pregnant then!

 

[Luissa]

I thought the question here was at what point between one week and 8 months the line should be drawn for legal abortions.

That was already answered.

From a medical, scientific, and ethical perspective, at the point that both heart and brain activity are present.

About 6 weeks gestation.

The line cannot be drawn at 6 weeks, because most women don't even know they are pregnant then!

Especially when using the US measuring system, that uses first day of your last period to measure how far long you are.

 

[JagOnDaRoad]

How in the world have billions of women managed for eons and ages????

They have had abortions for eons and ages by the way.

Yep.

I've mellowed with age about abortion.

Sadly, because of the very debate about abortion, millions of women have stopped to think, hmm, maybe I should get an abortion. The result, millions will never exist. I know some of you are thinking, "Damn, I wish that debate would have been as prominent before I was born....maybe my mom would have spared me the burden of existence."

More sadly, many were talked into abortion by some C A R I N G (sarcasm intended) creature who convinced them that "it" wasn't really human until "X" weeks, or until it could live outside the womb, or some other arbitrary "life doesn't begin until" starting point. I reiterate, because it seems to have disappeared from this debate, that the point of life beginning is at conception. Abortion occurs naturally for reasons known and unknown, and abortion is perpetrated on life intentionally, with and without good intentions, but with the same result. Many someones were never afforded the opportunity to exist.

Societal choice? Not really, not yet. It boils down to promotion. All publicity is good publicity said someone. So, pro abortion advocates will keep this debate alive until we become a civil society that demands that abortion on demand becomes what it should be...an awful thing to consider.

 

[Jackson]

They have had abortions for eons and ages by the way.

Yep.

I've mellowed with age about abortion.

Sadly, because of the very debate about abortion, millions of women have stopped to think, hmm, maybe I should get an abortion. The result, millions will never exist. I know some of you are thinking, "Damn, I wish that debate would have been as prominent before I was born....maybe my mom would have spared me the burden of existence."

More sadly, many were talked into abortion by some C A R I N G (sarcasm intended) creature who convinced them that "it" wasn't really human until "X" weeks, or until it could live outside the womb, or some other arbitrary "life doesn't begin until" starting point. I reiterate, because it seems to have disappeared from this debate, that the point of life beginning is at conception. Abortion occurs naturally for reasons known and unknown, and abortion is perpetrated on life intentionally, with and without good intentions, but with the same result. Many someones were never afforded the opportunity to exist.

Societal choice? Not really, not yet. It boils down to promotion. All publicity is good publicity said someone. So, pro abortion advocates will keep this debate alive until we become a civil society that demands that abortion on demand becomes what it should be...an awful thing to consider.

So, pro abortion advocates will keep this debate alive until we become a civil society that demands that abortion on demand becomes what it should be...an awful thing to consider.

Well said.

 

[Ravi]

We already have abortion on demand.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Using the Us method for measuring gestation? Because that would be about a week after someone finds out.

Facts are not dependent on the outcome you desire. The medical fact is that we have an independent, human life at about 6 weeks gestation.

 

[Ravi]

Using the Us method for measuring gestation? Because that would be about a week after someone finds out.

Facts are not dependent on the outcome you desire. The medical fact is that we have an independent, human life at about 6 weeks gestation.

Then remove it and let it live.

 

[Uncensored2008]

When life begins isn't the issue.

Really?

There's lots of life out there, and you probably end quite a bit of life daily every time you wash your hands.

Ah, still dehumanizing the victim. Die Juden sind Nagetiere

Tell you what, do a DNA test and report back what species these sub-humans actually are.

It's when sentient life begins.

Are humans sentient?

 

[catzmeow]

How in the world have billions of women managed for eons and ages????

They have had abortions for eons and ages by the way.

Yep.

I've mellowed with age about abortion.

I have, as well. I used to be 100% anti-abortion. I had an unplanned pregnancy and did not abort. But now, I basically think that any woman who wants to kill her unborn fetus probably isn't cut out for motherhood (at that point in time---maybe she will grow into it).

 

[Gem]

Then remove it and let it live.

Really? Surely you see what a silly "determiner" you've just set up...but I'll play along...

See, I completely agree. This is why I don't understand why people get so mad when I tell people I'm planning to leave my toddler alone for the two weeks my husband and I go on vacation. If the little urchin is human - he'll survive just fine for two weeks without me. And if he doesn't...well, then he wasn't human and my husband and I did nothing wrong...

Or...See, I completely agree. My best friend was in the hospital a few years ago for Toxic Shock Syndrome. When her organs starting shutting down they put her in a medically induced coma to try to stop the damage and I was all like, "No way...turn those machines off. If she can't make it on her own...then she isn't really a human...and I'm not about to be best friends with a non-human!"

Just because a human needs support to live doesn't mean they aren't human. And implying that because a fetus isn't capable of living outside the womb is a dangerous determiner for pro-life supporters to go by since the time when a baby can survive with medical intervention outside the mother's body is getting pushed up all the time...its currently around 22 weeks.

To say that something isn't human until 22 weeks...unless a brave doctor can somehow save a kid born at 21 weeks...then its human at 21 weeks...isn't really the argument that I would go with...especially since you're NEVER really going to be able to come to a firm determiner of where life begins that everyone will agree on anyway.

 

[catzmeow]

Are humans sentient?

When they stop being sentient, we remove them from life support. This is known as "permanent vegetative state."