Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[tinydancer]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

Why does a line have to be drawn?

First Trimester? Second? 18 years old?

No line? Really?

Trust me. 16 makes you become your own parents.

You start screaming "I brought you into this world, I can take you out".

 

[BDBoop]

Your life's timeline began at conception.. any real debate on that?

Of course not. We all know how to avoid a pregnancy or a new life, so we all know when life begins.

Would that it were that simple.

 

[koshergrl]

Sigh.

 

[Noomi]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I can agree with the first point but not the second, because aborting a fetus at any stage is not murder.

The line should be drawn at birth. Abortion can take place any time up until birth, after the baby is born, abortion is illegal anyway.

 

[Noomi]

Thank God it it governed mine or I wouldn't have had a wonderful son!

and if your religion governed mine, i wouldn't have my wonderful son

which is why you shouldn't be making my choices. make your own. live in good health.

don't try to make others' choices. that's the issue.... not what you, personally, find objectionable

This isn't debate. "I feel this" and "I feel that" and "I believe this" and "I think that" is not debate.

Jackson was responding to Moonglow's post regarding Adam being lifeless until God blew life into his nostrils. It was a perfectly reasonable response to that post.

If we're going to call this a serious debate forum, people need to make their points and SUPPORT THEM. Don't just say "I don't believe that" and "I feel this way". Provide supporting evidence for what you say, and make the connection clear. Sometimes it's appropriate to make an argument without actual "evidence" but just saying "your faith has nothing to do with this discussion" isn't debate.

Then I expect Jackson to provide proof of the following points:

1. That God exists
2. That God created people out of clay

Edited.

 

[Amelia]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I can agree with the first point but not the second, because aborting a fetus at any stage is not murder.

The line should be drawn at birth. Abortion can take place any time up until birth, after the baby is born, abortion is illegal anyway.

What constitutes birth? If the entity's left leg is still in the birth canal, is it okay to snip its spinal cord and vacuum out its brain?

 

[Noomi]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I can agree with the first point but not the second, because aborting a fetus at any stage is not murder.

The line should be drawn at birth. Abortion can take place any time up until birth, after the baby is born, abortion is illegal anyway.

What constitutes birth? If the entity's left leg is still in the birth canal, is it okay to snip its spinal cord and vacuum out its brain?

Hmm. Good question. What would the medical field think? Is birth the moment when the head crowns? Is it the moment the body is removed from the birth canal? Is it the moment the cord is cut?

For me, a fetus becomes a person when the cord is cut, and it takes a breath. However, between the birth and the cord being cut is that grey area for me. So I would say that once labor begins, that is where the choice ends.

 

[Si modo]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I agree. I believe elective abortions should be illegal (not ones that are medically necessary for a variety of reasons, but simple elective ones) at the point of viability of a preemie. I believe that is currently around 24 weeks.

So, elective abortions up to that point should be ok.

Now, as technology improves, that time of gestation to viability might change and the law should change accordingly.

That's the way I see it.

And, on elective abortions, I am against those being paid for using government monies.

I disagree. First trimester...second and third if mother's life in danger.

Result of rape? Any time the person carrying the foetus decides...

That's why I said "elective". If her life is in danger, it is no longer elective.

As far as a result of rape, I still stick with what I say. If the mother cannot decide to terminate the rapist's child by 24 weeks, she has more issues than just being pregnant by a rapist.

 

[Steelplate]

I agree. I believe elective abortions should be illegal (not ones that are medically necessary for a variety of reasons, but simple elective ones) at the point of viability of a preemie. I believe that is currently around 24 weeks.

So, elective abortions up to that point should be ok.

Now, as technology improves, that time of gestation to viability might change and the law should change accordingly.

That's the way I see it.

And, on elective abortions, I am against those being paid for using government monies.

I disagree. First trimester...second and third if mother's life in danger.

Result of rape? Any time the person carrying the foetus decides...

That's why I said "elective". If her life is in danger, it is no longer elective.

As far as a result of rape, I still stick with what I say. If the mother cannot decide to terminate the rapist's child by 24 weeks, she has more issues than just being pregnant by a rapist.

the thing about rape is the mental state if the victim....different people react in different ways. I personally believe that erring on the side of the victim is the way to go.

 

[strollingbones]

most of you ...i would say ...are too young to remember when abortion was illegal...pity that....if you did perhaps your views would be tempered with a little more understanding.....plus as i keep saying abortion is big business and neither party is gonna deny big business anything....

why do people become so wishy washy over abortion? if you support it..then support elective abortions fully....i cannot imagine the state of this country if we had forced births...

if you are against abortion..then you should be against it across the board...no exceptions....
why is a fetus punished due to its father being a rapist? if you can force births ...force them all

 

[uscitizen]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

Why does a line have to be drawn?

Hey you tell me.



Mother of two admits aborting baby a week before its due date
A mother of two aborted her own baby just a week before she was due to give birth after taking drugs bought on the internet, a court has heard. Sarah Catt, 35 from Sherburn, North Yorkshire, deliberately brought on a miscarriage in the final stages of pregnancy, in what a judge described as “highly unusual circumstances”.

It is understood she purchased a quantity of the drug Misoprostol, which can induce abortion, after researching and buying it on the internet.

Police believe she terminated her pregnancy within a week of its due date, but no trace of the baby’s body has been found.

During the police investigation she persistently told officers she had undergone a legal termination.

But abortions in the UK can only legally be carried out up to 24 weeks and detectives said they had evidence Catt had been pregnant at her 30 week scan.



Mother of two admits aborting baby a week before its due date - Telegraph

When does a woman's right to choose become murder?

Not all will ever agree on this, some even thinks it is murder to take the pill. Some think it is murder to ever abort, the morning after pill, you must have the child of a rapist, etc.

There will never be any reasonable line on this topic.

 

[manifold]

most of you ...i would say ...are too young to remember when abortion was illegal...pity that....if you did perhaps your views would be tempered with a little more understanding.....plus as i keep saying abortion is big business and neither party is gonna deny big business anything....

why do people become so wishy washy over abortion? if you support it..then support elective abortions fully....i cannot imagine the state of this country if we had forced births...

if you are against abortion..then you should be against it across the board...no exceptions....
why is a fetus punished due to its father being a rapist? if you can force births ...force them all

I like the absolute cut of your jib. But alas this dismisses the views of most of the population, who are firmly entrenched somewhere in that vast expanse of gray in between. I'm not sure where that gets us.

 

[koshergrl]

It gets us nowhere. This is entirely a rhetorical discussion, not a debate. It's a discussion about people's feelings.

 

[Katzndogz]

The line, if a line would exist, came from the original Roe decision. No restrictions in the first trimester, to save the life of the mother in the second trimester and not at all in the third trimester unless there is a danger of imminent death to the mother.

 

[Steelplate]

Edited

a rhetorical discussion? what is a debate other than a discussion on a topic with opposing viewpoints?

We may never find common ground, but perhaps through honest, rational discussion, we can get past the "baby killer/woman hater" stuff and realize that the people on either side of the argument are not a collection of monsters.

 

[hortysir]

and if your religion governed mine, i wouldn't have my wonderful son

which is why you shouldn't be making my choices. make your own. live in good health.

don't try to make others' choices. that's the issue.... not what you, personally, find objectionable

I am only putting my two cents in as everyone else is. Some are saying when the heart beats, some are saying a certain time, well, so am I...at conception, the decision is made for me.

i understand. but the people who think like you are the ones trying to infringe on my right to make those decisions for myself.

i don't care what anyone believes on an individual basis.

That's why a firm timeline needs to be drawn so there is a set period where we can say whether the choice is for the mother or the child.

At some point, the child should have an influence on the "choice".

 

[Steelplate]

[
Then I expect Jackson to provide proof of the following points:

1. That God exists
2. That God created people out of clay

Without the evidence to back up his claims, his opinion means nothing.

Whoa! Back up a minute. Prove you exist and are not just a sock of another poster. Otherwise your opinion means nothing.

ok...forgive me my ignorance....but what is a "sock"?

 

[koshergrl]

Aside from the fact that abortion violates human rights and has been at the root of many oppressive and female-hostile movements down through the years (China's 1-child rule and the Nazi oppression of Poles, to name two), it is a threat to the health and well-being of the women that pro-abortionists claim it exists to protect.

Abortion is used by pimps and by modern-day slave traders to increase the worth of the women they abuse and depend upon. Pregnant women are a liability to those who make money off of forced prostitution and they are not earners, so women who are in these trades are forced to obtain abortions to prolong their usefulness to those who abuse them. Planned Parenthood workers have repeatedly been exposed working with those who abuse women (pimps, even parents who are hiding incest and child abuse) to coerce women and girls into getting abortions.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=hZrXIttkdoQ

 

[catzmeow]

Aside from the fact that abortion violates human rights

Subjective opinion inflamed by hyperbole.

it is a threat to the health and well-being of the women that pro-abortionists claim it exists to protect.

Carrying a pregnancy to term is more dangerous.

Abortion is used by pimps and by modern-day slave traders to increase the worth of the women they abuse and depend upon. Pregnant women are a liability to those who make money off of forced prostitution and they are not earners, so women who are in these trades are forced to obtain abortions to prolong their usefulness to those who abuse them. Planned Parenthood workers have repeatedly been exposed working with those who abuse women (pimps, even parents who are hiding incest and child abuse) to coerce women and girls into getting abortions.

Fallacy of composition. These things may well be occurring, but the majority of abortions are not occurring in these situations. Eliminating abortion would not stop sexual slavery.

 

[saveliberty]

Aside from the fact that abortion violates human rights

Subjective opinion inflamed by hyperbole.

it is a threat to the health and well-being of the women that pro-abortionists claim it exists to protect.

Carrying a pregnancy to term is more dangerous.

Abortion is used by pimps and by modern-day slave traders to increase the worth of the women they abuse and depend upon. Pregnant women are a liability to those who make money off of forced prostitution and they are not earners, so women who are in these trades are forced to obtain abortions to prolong their usefulness to those who abuse them. Planned Parenthood workers have repeatedly been exposed working with those who abuse women (pimps, even parents who are hiding incest and child abuse) to coerce women and girls into getting abortions.

Fallacy of composition. These things may well be occurring, but the majority of abortions are not occurring in these situations. Eliminating abortion would not stop sexual slavery.

Carrying a pregnancy to term is more dangerous? Really? Care to show stats on that? In the US death in child birth is a very low number. I have never heard it mentioned when anyone I know was pregnant. People didn't recoil in horror and suggest the mother save herself from death.