Where does it say in the Bible that the human soul is formed at the time of conception?

[Avatar4321]

I'm sorry it bothers you that Christians dont think you should kill your children. And I'm sorry it doesn't bother you to kill your children.

as for your question, the bible is very clear that the spirit of man is created before conception. The Lord told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

on the day of judgment the Lord will hold us accountable for how we treat the most innocent among us. The unborn child doesn't get more innocent. How do you want to be able to answer Him?

You're free to believe whatever you want but its the bible which means it has no relationship to facts. Including the ludicrous accusation that anyone is killing "children".

Your beliefs don't negate a woman's sovereign right to control of her own body. If it was YOUR body the law wanted to control, if it was YOU who was being forced to reproduce, you would sing a different tune.

MYOB

if you don't want to hear what the bible teaches on a subject then dont ask what it teaches.

abortion kills children. That's pure fact, regardless of what the bibl says. And defending the innocent of the world is my business. So I am minding it.

Lots of shit kills children after they are born but none if it warrants the attention of the right.

the fact that you have to shift to propaganda and red herrings doesn't help your argument.

even if it was true, even if everyone else does it, it doesn't justify you doing it.

 

[occupied]

What proof do you have that they are fake pictures or that they are extremists?
A premature birth can survive at 24 weeks.
The baby is not fully formed at 6 months or even 7 months yet outside the womb they have a good survival rate. At 23 weeks it is 15%, 24 weeks 55% and 25 weeks about 80%

Here you go...

This is an extremist site.

12 WEEK OLD BABY WALKS IN THE WOMB!

12 WEEK OLD BABY WALKS IN THE WOMB

So you have a problem with the new 3D ultrasound images pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London's Create Health Clinic?
3D ultrasound has showed movement of the infant much more clearly.
It is these new 3d images that is changing the minds of our young people in colleges all across the land and they are becoming more pro life.
3D Ultrasound Photo Gallery

Cool. And, remember Nilsson's photos and the book, A Child Is Born?

But this is not germane to the conversation.

There is nothing that negates a woman's ownership of her own body. Period.

Except that there is an innocent little life inside her that can't speak for itself.

FETUS: Mom, are you there?
MOM: Yes, 12 week old fetus, what is it?
FETUS: I just wanted to tell you that if you feel any kicks or rumblings or feel tiny footsteps inside you or anything like that, don't panic. It's just me taking a little walk.
MOM: All right dear, but don't touch my liver, and be back in your placenta by dinner time.
FETUS: Thanks mom!

Those pictures purported to be 12 week old fetuses are nothing of the kind, they are older fetuses passed off as 12 weeks old.

A 12 week fetus is indistinguishable from any other placental animal at the same stage of development, at that stage there is little difference between a human, a dog, a mouse, or an elephant.

 

[occupied]

I'm sorry it bothers you that Christians dont think you should kill your children. And I'm sorry it doesn't bother you to kill your children.

as for your question, the bible is very clear that the spirit of man is created before conception. The Lord told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was conceived.

on the day of judgment the Lord will hold us accountable for how we treat the most innocent among us. The unborn child doesn't get more innocent. How do you want to be able to answer Him?

You're free to believe whatever you want but its the bible which means it has no relationship to facts. Including the ludicrous accusation that anyone is killing "children".

Your beliefs don't negate a woman's sovereign right to control of her own body. If it was YOUR body the law wanted to control, if it was YOU who was being forced to reproduce, you would sing a different tune.

MYOB

if you don't want to hear what the bible teaches on a subject then dont ask what it teaches.

abortion kills children. That's pure fact, regardless of what the bibl says. And defending the innocent of the world is my business. So I am minding it.

Lots of shit kills children after they are born but none if it warrants the attention of the right.

the fact that you have to shift to propaganda and red herrings doesn't help your argument.

even if it was true, even if everyone else does it, it doesn't justify you doing it.

I do not concern myself with these side arguments on the abortion issue. The question has always been one of individual freedom and the greater good. We pollute the air for energy, we slaughter animals for food, we kill others for safety, we fight wars for peace. Nothing comes without a downside, especially continuing the human civilization on earth. Solve the problems of poverty and drug abuse, make contraception universal and free and you will get what you want without having to treat women like slaves to their wombs.

 

[Zoom-boing]

A fetus is a human being in the very early stages of its development. It is a human being, there is no doubt about that. It doesn't "become" a human being at some arbitrary point; it is a human being from the get go. That's how it works. I'm always amazed at how dumb some people are on the basics.

As for the "it's my body" bs ... the body inside a woman's body is not her body.

That a 12 week old fetus "doesn't look like a human" is irrelevant; it is a human being, unique dna and all.

Abortion ends the life of the human being that is aborted. That's what abortion is, that's what abortion does, that's the entire point of abortion ... to end the life of the unborn which in turn ends the pregnancy.

 

[Agit8r]

A) The Bible doesn't say anything about it the personhood of embryos.

B) It wasn't a stated Christian belief that personhood started at conception until the late 20th Century.

 

[mudwhistle]

I've been looking at fake pictures of the fetus on religious extremist sites and was wondering where I might find the above question in scripture?

And when does a pancake become a pancake? An egg and flour have the potential to become a pancake, but it's not really a pancake. When you add all the ingredients of flour, milk, and eggs, it's still not a pancake....it's only batter. It becomes a pancake when the cook decides it's cooked and ready.

To say a fetus is human, is the same as calling the batter a pancake.

Sperm has the potential of creating a human life. A hair has the potential of creating a human life, given potential cloning techniques.

(I'm just pointing out the silliness of this argument)

A potential baby becomes a baby when and if the mother decides it so....when the fetus can live on it's own, right around the neighborhood of 7 months of gestation.

Having a soul isn't the issue.
Being able to react to pain is the primary identifier that a fetus, or any animal for that matter, is a living being.

Some folks seem to have more concern for animals than humans because they consider humans to be a disease infecting the Earth. You need to realize that we are all here for a purpose.

A 12 week old fetus doesn't feel any pain.

Maybe you can provide proof of this.
Any creature feels pain......they just don't understand it the same way.

 

[peach174]

A) The Bible doesn't say anything about it the personhood of embryos.

B) It wasn't a stated Christian belief that personhood started at conception until the late 20th Century.

The Bible is full of passages that calls the unborn child an infant.

 

[Agit8r]

A) The Bible doesn't say anything about it the personhood of embryos.

B) It wasn't a stated Christian belief that personhood started at conception until the late 20th Century.

The Bible is full of passages that calls the unborn child an infant.

What? Did they get the ultrasound wand out? NO. They could feel the late-term fetus kicking, and when twins were born, they described this as boys struggling with one another in the womb. Obviously Bronze-Age people had no idea what an embryo was, so it never made it into their mythology.

 

[RosieS]

Ending the further development of a proto-human before the time of viability is not killing a child. There IS no child yet - not if it cannot breathe on its own.

Generally, before the third trimester viability is not possible.

A person who commits homicide on a pregnant woman only does so in the singular before the third trimester.

Placing religious concepts and views on ALL women, whether religious or not, compounds the errors.

Non-religious women and/or non-Christian women are not subject to your appeals to concepts of pregnancy 1400 or more years old.

So quit forcing secular, modern women into your eye of a needle.

Regards from Rosie

 

[Votto]

I've been looking at fake pictures of the fetus on religious extremist sites and was wondering where I might find the above question in scripture?

And when does a pancake become a pancake? An egg and flour have the potential to become a pancake, but it's not really a pancake. When you add all the ingredients of flour, milk, and eggs, it's still not a pancake....it's only batter. It becomes a pancake when the cook decides it's cooked and ready.

To say a fetus is human, is the same as calling the batter a pancake.

Sperm has the potential of creating a human life. A hair has the potential of creating a human life, given potential cloning techniques.

(I'm just pointing out the silliness of this argument)

A potential baby becomes a baby when and if the mother decides it so....when the fetus can live on it's own, right around the neighborhood of 7 months of gestation.

The Bible teaches that once the "fetus" passes out of the womb at birth the soul fairy comes by with her magic wand and makes it a human being with a live soul.

 

[peach174]

Here you go...

This is an extremist site.

12 WEEK OLD BABY WALKS IN THE WOMB!

12 WEEK OLD BABY WALKS IN THE WOMB

So you have a problem with the new 3D ultrasound images pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London's Create Health Clinic?
3D ultrasound has showed movement of the infant much more clearly.
It is these new 3d images that is changing the minds of our young people in colleges all across the land and they are becoming more pro life.
3D Ultrasound Photo Gallery

Cool. And, remember Nilsson's photos and the book, A Child Is Born?

But this is not germane to the conversation.

There is nothing that negates a woman's ownership of her own body. Period.

Except that there is an innocent little life inside her that can't speak for itself.

FETUS: Mom, are you there?
MOM: Yes, 12 week old fetus, what is it?
FETUS: I just wanted to tell you that if you feel any kicks or rumblings or feel tiny footsteps inside you or anything like that, don't panic. It's just me taking a little walk.
MOM: All right dear, but don't touch my liver, and be back in your placenta by dinner time.
FETUS: Thanks mom!

Those pictures purported to be 12 week old fetuses are nothing of the kind, they are older fetuses passed off as 12 weeks old.

A 12 week fetus is indistinguishable from any other placental animal at the same stage of development, at that stage there is little difference between a human, a dog, a mouse, or an elephant.

Are abortions performed on dogs, mice or elephants?

 

[Agit8r]

I've been looking at fake pictures of the fetus on religious extremist sites and was wondering where I might find the above question in scripture?

And when does a pancake become a pancake? An egg and flour have the potential to become a pancake, but it's not really a pancake. When you add all the ingredients of flour, milk, and eggs, it's still not a pancake....it's only batter. It becomes a pancake when the cook decides it's cooked and ready.

To say a fetus is human, is the same as calling the batter a pancake.

Sperm has the potential of creating a human life. A hair has the potential of creating a human life, given potential cloning techniques.

(I'm just pointing out the silliness of this argument)

A potential baby becomes a baby when and if the mother decides it so....when the fetus can live on it's own, right around the neighborhood of 7 months of gestation.

The Bible teaches that once the "fetus" passes out of the womb at birth the soul fairy comes by with her magic wand and makes it a human being with a live soul.

Yet, even at birth, the Bible makes no mention of the child having any rights of it's own. Because the people who wrote the Bible never acknowledged such rights.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I've been looking at fake pictures of the fetus on religious extremist sites and was wondering where I might find the above question in scripture?

And when does a pancake become a pancake? An egg and flour have the potential to become a pancake, but it's not really a pancake. When you add all the ingredients of flour, milk, and eggs, it's still not a pancake....it's only batter. It becomes a pancake when the cook decides it's cooked and ready.

To say a fetus is human, is the same as calling the batter a pancake.

Sperm has the potential of creating a human life. A hair has the potential of creating a human life, given potential cloning techniques.

(I'm just pointing out the silliness of this argument)

A potential baby becomes a baby when and if the mother decides it so....when the fetus can live on it's own, right around the neighborhood of 7 months of gestation.

Having a soul isn't the issue.
Being able to react to pain is the primary identifier that a fetus, or any animal for that matter, is a living being.

Some folks seem to have more concern for animals than humans because they consider humans to be a disease infecting the Earth. You need to realize that we are all here for a purpose.

A 12 week old fetus doesn't feel any pain.

Maybe you can provide proof of this.
Any creature feels pain......they just don't understand it the same way.

Do you know how to use the Google?


Study Fetus feels no pain until third trimester - Health - Women s health NBC News

Fetuses Feel Pain at 20 Weeks and 4 Other Anti-Abortion Myths Mother Jones

 

[depotoo]

n (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb . . . your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13,16).



Just so people know where I stand. I feel it is a woman and her doctors decision. I am not to judge. I do wish it were limited to health reasons, or cases of rape.
Anyone that decides to have one, has to live with their own choices and reconcile with it later in life.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I've been looking at fake pictures of the fetus on religious extremist sites and was wondering where I might find the above question in scripture?

And when does a pancake become a pancake? An egg and flour have the potential to become a pancake, but it's not really a pancake. When you add all the ingredients of flour, milk, and eggs, it's still not a pancake....it's only batter. It becomes a pancake when the cook decides it's cooked and ready.

To say a fetus is human, is the same as calling the batter a pancake.

Sperm has the potential of creating a human life. A hair has the potential of creating a human life, given potential cloning techniques.

(I'm just pointing out the silliness of this argument)

A potential baby becomes a baby when and if the mother decides it so....when the fetus can live on it's own, right around the neighborhood of 7 months of gestation.

The Bible teaches that once the "fetus" passes out of the womb at birth the soul fairy comes by with her magic wand and makes it a human being with a live soul.

I guess that's just as crazy as believing a man lived inside of a whale, or that Jesus walked on water. You never know what religious nutters are going to believe next. Heck, tomorrow they may want to cut assistance off for poor people needing to feed these new people. Oh wait....

 

[HaShev]

OP,
I've solved this complex debate already.
To answer your question it's not on conception because nepes means breath therefore your nepes is at first breath. But deciding when a fetus is a human life past that which should be allowed aborting the answer is simple that I gave priests who came to me asking this concerned highly debated puzzling dilema.
If life is deemed ended not at last breath, but at last brain wave:thought. Therefore life doesn't start until you have your first thought patterns, which I think are a couple months in the term. To prove you aren't you until you think and have memories we can use the cloning debate which recognizes that your clone is identical as a twin woukd be but is not you because the clone has it's own memiry and experiences and thus inflyences as such is their own uniwue being. You aren't killing a life that has yet to experience life eith even one firdt thought or memory of being. Such a solution would allow both positions in the debate compromise but the ego of man would rather be right then to meet in the middle even if that middle ground is modt rational and what's best.

 

[peach174]

A) The Bible doesn't say anything about it the personhood of embryos.

B) It wasn't a stated Christian belief that personhood started at conception until the late 20th Century.

The Bible is full of passages that calls the unborn child an infant.

What? Did they get the ultrasound wand out? NO. They could feel the late-term fetus kicking, and when twins were born, they described this as boys struggling with one another in the womb. Obviously Bronze-Age people had no idea what an embryo was, so it never made it into their mythology.

Palms was written between 1440 BC to 586 BC
Psalm 139:13-16New International Version (NIV)
13 For you created my inmost being you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful,I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

They knew

 

[occupied]

So you have a problem with the new 3D ultrasound images pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London's Create Health Clinic?
3D ultrasound has showed movement of the infant much more clearly.
It is these new 3d images that is changing the minds of our young people in colleges all across the land and they are becoming more pro life.
3D Ultrasound Photo Gallery

Cool. And, remember Nilsson's photos and the book, A Child Is Born?

But this is not germane to the conversation.

There is nothing that negates a woman's ownership of her own body. Period.

Except that there is an innocent little life inside her that can't speak for itself.

FETUS: Mom, are you there?
MOM: Yes, 12 week old fetus, what is it?
FETUS: I just wanted to tell you that if you feel any kicks or rumblings or feel tiny footsteps inside you or anything like that, don't panic. It's just me taking a little walk.
MOM: All right dear, but don't touch my liver, and be back in your placenta by dinner time.
FETUS: Thanks mom!

Those pictures purported to be 12 week old fetuses are nothing of the kind, they are older fetuses passed off as 12 weeks old.

A 12 week fetus is indistinguishable from any other placental animal at the same stage of development, at that stage there is little difference between a human, a dog, a mouse, or an elephant.

Are abortions performed on dogs, mice or elephants?

We kill them by the millions and don't even really give a fuck. We kill each other and don't even care, it's the way of the world.

 

[beagle9]

Thankfully subjective religious dogma is legally and Constitutionally irrelevant – where each person is at liberty to decide for himself when life begins, in accordance with is own good faith and good conscience.

And so you feel that if he or she figures as individuals, and this be it in good faith of, or in good judgement of, or in good conscience of (i.e. sound reasoning over), that an individual should have total say upon where life begins or even where it ends maybe ? You feel that they should retain their choices upon whether or not to allow a potential family member that is on it's way here to be born (or) whether or not that one who is already here should be put to death ? You think that they should be honored in such choices because they are or should remain free to make such choices, even without any type of guidance upon or without any education given to them on such matters in which should be part of our society and our make up as human beings somehow ?

So you think that somehow this is a good thing in your eyes to have individuals without guidance or education on, to make uninformed choices on the unborn "life", and this in a continuance of such things these days ? I mean the Muslims were killing their children with some sort of honor killings, so are you for that also in life, I mean it's a choice right ?

Religion has nothing to do with anything really, because it is whether or not we are going to allow free choice in the matter of someone allowing a life to come forward (be born in which is the next step to bring that unborn LIFE into the world and/or into the room so to speak) or as to whether they are not going to allow that life to be born or to go forward in life as we have known it to be for our own selves in life just as well.

Now if you think like you do, then doesn't he or she also feel as if they could determine where it ends along the journey at any point and time just as well, and this whether it be before or afterwards over a potential life to be brought into the world or even over a life that is already here ? Is this the way you might see it along the long journey of life that is found in total of, and within the entire matter at hand ? What did you think of these so called honor killings, and if you disagree with them, then why do you not trust their judgement as individuals who felt they have the right to do such things in life as well, but yet you don't honor the unborn life who is being killed in the same ways as well ? For example - What if the unborn is being seen as a dishonor to a family in the way that the life in which is now living and breathing within was conceived, and so next the family then seeks to take that life out over the dishonor that it has brought to them and their teenage daughter lets say ? Would you be OK with that choice being made ?

If you are going to honor life, then lets honor life in every way possible, but lets get a policy going to curb irrational sex habits that cause huge population explosions to occur or happen as a result of. This is where America should be making a solid stand in life again, and not in the way that it has advocated or promoted in concerns of abortions in this nation over the years, and this as a reaction to an out of control situation.

I will ask this, what guides people to do the right thing if you or they respect no higher power or authority upon these matters ? What is the best solutions for these things in life in which we all do live with daily, and what would you do with the lives of others in which you yourself might be given upon this earth in dominion over ? Would you make choices as Hitler once did when he was given by the people "dominion" over so many ? Would your policy be to have open season on the unborn or the weak and physically handicapped, and this because you recognize no higher authority but only that of a man who is in the world, but haven't you seen first hand his huge mistakes made over time, and you want us to trust him or her that is Godless for whom is human on such matters in life and/or in death, but not trust in the word of God instead for whom should guide us all as humans ?

I'll close with my thoughts on me saying "thankfully there is a judgement day for those who use your kind of mindset freely in life", because sooner or later people are going to pay for their sins, whether it be here via pre-judgement day or on that very day itself.

It is said to "Fear not man who can take ones life upon the first death", and so isn't it better that we fear (respect, honor and obey as best we can) the one who has the keys to heaven and hell, and can take ones life for the second death after judgement ?

 

[peach174]

OP,
I've solved this complex debate already.
To answer your question it's not on conception because nepes means breath therefore your nepes is at first breath. But deciding when a fetus is a human life past that which should be allowed aborting the answer is simple that I gave priests who came to me asking this concerned highly debated puzzling dilema.
If life is deemed ended not at last breath, but at last brain wave:thought. Therefore life doesn't start until you have your first thought patterns, which I think are a couple months in the term. To prove you aren't you until you think and have memories we can use the cloning debate which recognizes that your clone is identical as a twin woukd be but is not you because the clone has it's own memiry and experiences and thus inflyences as such is their own uniwue being. You aren't killing a life that has yet to experience life eith even one firdt thought or memory of being. Such a solution would allow both positions in the debate compromise but the ego of man would rather be right then to meet in the middle even if that middle ground is modt rational and what's best.

We have but the left had a fit over bills proposing abortion illegal after 5 months.
That gives more than enough time for a woman to decide but the left does not want that.
If you want to kill your own infant so be it, but don't make all Americans pay for it.