When you cross the border illegally.......

[The Professor]

I said I was through with this thread, but I lied. I forget a few things that are important. Sweet Willie criticized me because I said that Republican and Democratic administrations “ignored” the problems with illegal immigration. He/she thought I should have used words such as “they didn't do enough” instead. Actually, both my critic and I were wrong. Those who run this country did not ignore the problem; instead they actively encouraged it.

Further, the number of deportations cited by the Obama administration is a meaningless figure, much like “jobs created or saved.” If someone is deported, but successfully crosses the border later the same day, what has been accomplished? If half a million illegals are deported only to return later on, how many have in fact been deported? You may say half a million; however, I would say zero. Intelligent people should be able to see through meaningless statistics and other government hyperbole.

 

[Ernie S.]

tell us what Bush and team did to stop this illegal imigration?

why are you blaming the left?

Because obama is the President now. He's had 38 months and his big accomplishment is deciding to only deport felons.

 

[Ernie S.]

I thought Reagan had solved all those problems with his amnesty program?
We were told at the time that it would fix things....

It didn't, did it, but obama wants to try it again. Those who fail to learn from history.....

 

[rightwinger]

tell us what Bush and team did to stop this illegal imigration?

why are you blaming the left?

Wasn't it ultraconservative Reagan who last offered amnesty?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Now, I will give you the last word. You can disagree and insult to your heart's content. I have said what I wanted to say and I am through with this thread.

I would first like to apologize if something I have said has insulted you. It is not my intention to insult strangers on the internet.

As far as your assessment of the situation, it does appear to be filled with hyperbole and dismissive political tones, rather than an objective look at the situation.

Our net illegal immigration has been at or near zero for a few years now. Meaning that for every one we deport, another enters. This is a substantial improvement from anything we have ever accomplished on the border. That number has been a negative for 35 years. Your claim that the number of illegals are up I would dispute, as almost all sources report that about a million illegals have left the country since 2008. The number widely reported in country now is 11.2 million. Down from over 12 million. The claim that somehow 17,000 Border Patrol agents isn't any better than 2,500 is quite confusing to me and leads me to believe there are some ulterior motives to some of the criticism. 17,000 Border Patrol agents is certainly better than 2,500 and certainly is a part of the reason for the increases effectiveness of border security.

However, none of that really matters terribly when considering your estimation of the situation. The first things I think that you need to consider in a realistic manner are your ideas about securing the border 100% and the active deportation of illegals by force. The two propositions are easily spoken but a casual examination of what is required to come anywhere close to achieving these ideas motivates rational people to explore alternatives. Fact is, these things that are so easily uttered are incredibly difficult and expensive to do. If these two options, 100% border security and 100% deportations are held as the only answer to the problem, in pure economic sense, you may as well let them stay. It's cheaper.

The example I often use to try and convey the scale of deportation some are asking for is WWII Germany. When the Germans began killing "undesirables" they quickly learned something about trying to get rid of masses of people they didn't want around: It is terribly expensive. The prospect of sending death squads from place to place, digging mass graves and shooting people 50 - 100 at a time into the grave, COST TOO MUCH. This is why alternatives were explored, why cattle cars and gas chambers were employed. It was about economics. Now, even with the assembly line style slaughter, it took years to MURDER 6 - 8 million people. Not to feed, incarcerate and deport them... this is how long it took to KILL THEM. And the cost to KILL THEM was in no small way responsible for the economic woes of the German war effort. Now... we aren't talking about killing people. We are talking about rounding up and deporting 12 million + people. Now, do you seriously believe that we can, in an acceptable way, round up 12 million people and deport them? A cursory glance at the German exercise in rounding up and killing people tells most reasonable people that it is simply too expensive and poses to much risk to human rights to attempt to send out the kind of force it would take to round up 12 million people. The Germans are the only people who have ever managed to actually pull it off and it meant shipping people hundreds and thousands at a time in crammed into cattle cars. Realistic people know that this is not an option. Even if we did find the money and the means to deport these people there is another consideration many don't make. Most people passionate about this issue will say it's a "flood" of illegals...it's a "wave" and on and on with the hyperbole. So... considering that this has been a "flood" or a "wave" it has taken 40 YEARS of this flood to reach the level of illegals we have in the country. 40 years of a voluntary "wave" of people coming. Do tell how anyone can believe that we can root them out by force in any less time? This is going to take A LONG TIME if you think they will EVER be removed. It took 40 years of what people describe as a FLOOD for them to get here. Thinking you can deport them any faster is just not the idea of someone who has actually sat down and considered the logistics of the issue. The cries of "send them home NOW!" are frantic pleas of people who either just haven't thought about the situation for more than a moment or they are looking for a political tool because the request is not reasonable. Can't be done, short of resorting to Gestapo tactics similar to Germany WWII and that would BREAK US. We can't afford it. Maybe you have noticed the frantic screams of the "frantics" here on this board regarding our financial situation? And anyone thinks we can mount this kind of effort to forcibly migrate 12 million people? This is not an intelligent or reasonable person's solution.

Now, I'm not going to go into detail about this 100% border security idea you relate. I've heard it before and I have step by step followed through on that thought with a rabid "secure the border" type. By the end, he had decided that 100% border security wasn't going to happen. If you would like to have that conversation, please begin by telling me your vision of what 100% border security would entail. We'll run a budget for that too.

I am a proponent of getting rid of the illegals in our country. But I have come to the very reasoned conclusion, after much study of the issue, the only economic solution, indeed the super duper easy solution is one simple thing: take their jobs. Take the jobs and they self deport. They walk home just like they got here, on their own dime. No soldiers, no fences, no arrest and deportations, no door to door round ups looking for 12 million people scattered all around the country. State by state, you pass ONE LAW. 90 days mandatory for the owner / CEO of any company found with an illegal on the job. Period. No excuses. No exceptions. You see, enforcing our laws on US citizens is just easier than trying to enforce it on non citizens. That is a whole 'nother conversation about international treaties and constitutional law, but trust me... it is a BIG part of why some of these laws have trouble.

In short, favor getting them out of here. But these calls for massive deportations and 100% border security are just not realistic. Not going to happen. We don't have the money and it would be a humanitarian disaster for which we would pay an incredible price in credibility. The choice is simple: Go after 12 million scattered people, one by one at traffic stops, or go after a handful of meat packers and chicken processors that stand behind our border patrol waving dollar bills at poor people. The folks that create this problem will all fit into the conference room at a Holiday Inn. If we chose to rip the heart of this rather than play politics and ethnic games, we could get these people started walking home today.

 

[The Professor]

This issue isn't about the government and it never was. It has always been about US citizens illegally hiring workers, under cutting the US labor market. There is a simply choice here: Go after 12 - 15 million illegal immigrants OR go after a few thousand employers that make life possible for them here.

You're right. Keep the borders open for criminals (especially drug traffickers), terrorists and people looking to live off the largesse of the American taxpayer. I hate to break the bad news, but not every illegal comes here to find full-time work. Many illegals come to the USA to commit crimes and many others come for the freebies. Many work only part time, some just a day or two a week. With assistance from the government (especially state governments), they can do better here than they could if they worked full time in their home country. A substantial number of illegals don't want to work at all. They find a way to live fairly well solely on welfare, something they could not do in their own country.

Here is one simple fact which cannot be denied: If illegal immigrants were good for the economy, every state would be clamoring for them; however, this is not the case. Many states, especially border states, are suffering from the economic drain caused by these illegals and they are asking the Federal Government to enforce the laws and protect the borders or to offer federal financial aid. In several states the increased cost of illegals is equal to the state's entire huge budget deficit.

Finding full-time work is obviously not the only reason illegals cross the border. If all you do is punish employers who hire illegals, that may stop a few but the rest will keep coming. Some Americans truly believe that every illegal alien comes to the USA to find a job, work hard and make a better life for his/her family. This is a beautiful picture, but it does not represent the real world. In reality, far too many illegals (most of them according to some reports) sneak across the border to take advantage of a the American system. They do not want to work and they contribute little or nothing to society. They depend on the American taxpayers to foot the bill for their food, housing, medical care and other benefits. This problem can't be blamed on business owners. The policies of the Federal and State governments created the problem and only the government can fix it.

Besides, even if we did not have a problem with illegals, our borders should be secure. In today's political climate, open borders are an invitation to disaster.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

One thing ultra-liberals don't get: when you accept legal immigrants, you get the best and the brightest; but when you accept everyone who crosses the border illegally, you get far to many criminals, misifts and moochers.

What conservatives fail to understand is: some of the most nefarious scoundrels come here legally, and some of the most honest and hard-working illegally.

Indeed, many arrive legally, only to lose one’s legal status subsequently; often through no fault of his own.

The problem is complex and will prove difficult to solve, requiring intelligence, compassion, and an understanding of the Constitution – hence conservatives are unfit to address the issue.

I think Bush is just as guilty as Obama. Both Republican and Democratic administration have ignored the problems of illegal immigration; however, I also know that ultra-liberals, as opposed to conservatives, are more favorable to the concept of open borders.

Nonsense.

No one advocates ‘open borders,’ rather, a humane, comprehensive approach likely to successfully address the problem, not the punitive hatred of the right.

 

[The Professor]

Not every country treats trespassers with the same kindness shown by the United States. When you cross the border illegally in other countries, you are punished – big time; however in the USA your illegal entry is rewarded. The incomparable Neal Boortz puts things in proper perspective:

Let's see if we have this right: | Nealz Nuze | www.boortz.com

One thing ultra-liberals don't get: when you accept legal immigrants, you get the best and the brightest; but when you accept everyone who crosses the border illegally, you get far to many criminals, misifts and moochers. Only in the good ole USA do we restrict productive legal immigration and encourage destructive illegal immigration. Go figure.

Oh well, we can all rest easy knowing that even though our open borders allow illegals to enter the country at will, terrorists around the world would never think of taking advantage of this security breach.

Okay. The conservative agenda is to make the USA more like North Korean, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Venezuela, Cuba...

and btw,

A Reagan Legacy: Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants: ​

A Reagan Legacy: Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants : NPR

I don't know where you got that idea from what I said. I will break it down for you. There is nothing wrong with securing our borders. Other countries protect their borders and so should we. I never suggested we punish intruders the way other countries do. But rewarding those who violate our immigration laws is foolish; hell it is insane!

The conservative agenda is to protect this country be securing its borders. You may think this is a radical idea, but I do not.

Since you did not comment on the rest of the article, I have nothing else to say to you.

 

[Sallow]

I thought Reagan had solved all those problems with his amnesty program?
We were told at the time that it would fix things....

It didn't, did it, but obama wants to try it again. Those who fail to learn from history.....

But by "conservative" standards..he's doing a far better job then say..Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush II.

 

[Sweet Willy]

This issue isn't about the government and it never was. It has always been about US citizens illegally hiring workers, under cutting the US labor market. There is a simply choice here: Go after 12 - 15 million illegal immigrants OR go after a few thousand employers that make life possible for them here.

You're right. Keep the borders open for criminals (especially drug traffickers), terrorists and people looking to live off the largesse of the American taxpayer. I hate to break the bad news, but not every illegal comes here to find full-time work. Many illegals come to the USA to commit crimes and many others come for the freebies. Many work only part time, some just a day or two a week. With assistance from the government (especially state governments), they can do better here than they could if they worked full time in their home country. A substantial number of illegals don't want to work at all. They find a way to live fairly well solely on welfare, something they could not do in their own country.

Here is one simple fact which cannot be denied: If illegal immigrants were good for the economy, every state would be clamoring for them; however, this is not the case. Many states, especially border states, are suffering from the economic drain caused by these illegals and they are asking the Federal Government to enforce the laws and protect the borders or to offer federal financial aid. In several states the increased cost of illegals is equal to the state's entire huge budget deficit.

Finding full-time work is obviously not the only reason illegals cross the border. If all you do is punish employers who hire illegals, that may stop a few but the rest will keep coming. Some Americans truly believe that every illegal alien comes to the USA to find a job, work hard and make a better life for his/her family. This is a beautiful picture, but it does not represent the real world. In reality, far too many illegals (most of them according to some reports) sneak across the border to take advantage of a the American system. They do not want to work and they contribute little or nothing to society. They depend on the American taxpayers to foot the bill for their food, housing, medical care and other benefits. This problem can't be blamed on business owners. The policies of the Federal and State governments created the problem and only the government can fix it.

Besides, even if we did not have a problem with illegals, our borders should be secure. In today's political climate, open borders are an invitation to disaster.

There is no conversation to be had with you my friend, you're too far gone. Jut about everything you said above is so far out of whack that there isn't any hope of a rational conversation.

....only the government can fix it.

Good luck with that.

 

[starcraftzzz]

One thing ultra-liberals don't get: when you accept legal immigrants, you get the best and the brightest; but when you accept everyone who crosses the border illegally, you get far to many criminals, misifts and moochers.

When one actually looks at the data they find the complete opposite.

http://chirla.org/files/FactsheetImmigrationanCrime.pdf
^US citizens are 5 times as likely to be incarcerated illegal immigrants

Illegal immigrants' participation in smuggling drugs uncertain
^Only 1.2% of illegals get arrested for committing a crime

Only in the good ole USA do we restrict productive legal immigration and encourage destructive illegal immigration. Go figure.

Again lets actually look at the data.
Illegal immigrants ad 2.6trillion dollars to the American economy
Study predicts $1.5 trillion increase in GDP if undocumented immigrants are legalized. | ThinkProgress

Reason Foundation - Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
Illegal immigrants contribute a net 80,000 dollars in taxes over their lifetime.

Oh well, we can all rest easy knowing that even though our open borders allow illegals to enter the country at will, terrorists around the world would never think of taking advantage of this security breach.

Name 5 terrorists attacks that have occur in America due to illegal immigrants.

 

[Unkotare]

These 'open border' idiots always seem to overlook the fact that 100% of illegal aliens have by definition violated the laws of the US.

 

[Sweet Willy]

These 'open border' idiots always seem to overlook the fact that 100% of illegal aliens have by definition violated the laws of the US.

Well no, not really. I mean, I don't see any open border advocates speaking here, first. And second, over looking the violations of of illegal immigrants is much like over looking the violations of speeders who don't get caught. Trying to hire enough enforcement to stop any significant number of speeders is about the same as trying to hire enough people to stop folks from crossing the border. You just can't catch more than a token number of them. This isn't about anything other than reality for me. Forget about what ever I may think of illegals. If you review my post, there is no opinion either way of them.

1. There are some 12 million illegals in this country. Explain how any significant number of them can be found and deported. Include cost, methods and logistics of how you think this can be done.

2. There are some 2,000 miles of border we share with Mexico. Much of it crosses some of the most God forsaken desert in the country. If people are willing to face walking 150 miles across the desert, explain why you think a fence or Border Patrols will deter them. Don't you think 150 miles of desert is at least as hard to cross as a fence?

3. If you support militarizing the border, tell us how many troops you think we would need, how they would patrol the border, where they would eat, sleep, etc, how they would get to their assigned area each day, etc. Please include a rough estimate of what this would cost and how long you think we should keep them there.

4. Do you believe we should continue to allow US employers to use illegals? If so, do you think this undermines our efforts at stopping illegal immigration?


These are simple questions. Most reasonable people, after an honest assessment of the situation, will conclude that the most economical and practical way to deal with the overwhelming majority of the problem is to TAKE THE JOBS. Despite what the Professor here would have you believe, the incredible majority of illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border are coming to find a job. Yes, there are drug runners and criminals. Those people are present in EVERY part of society. They are the tiny fraction. In fact, as a previous poster pointed out, stat after stat after stat bears out the common sense truth: illegals are far less likely to commit a crime in the US. It's pretty simple: once they get here they obey the law BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR JOB and not get deported.

Common sense people. That's all it takes. This other carrying on is about anger. people that want revenge and punitive actions. And that's OK. Lets just be clear about how to get them out of here versus how to spend money punishing them.

 

[starcraftzzz]

These 'open border' idiots always seem to overlook the fact that 100% of illegal aliens have by definition violated the laws of the US.

So what? If the government said that it was unlawful o be a christian would you then complain about Christians and want to jail them?
An person from another country moving to this country hurts no one, why are so bent on ruining millions of peoples lives?

 

[Sweet Willy]

These 'open border' idiots always seem to overlook the fact that 100% of illegal aliens have by definition violated the laws of the US.

So what? If the government said that it was unlawful o be a christian would you then complain about Christians and want to jail them?
An person from another country moving to this country hurts no one, why are so bent on ruining millions of peoples lives?

You are mistaken there. Illegal immigration cost us money. Probably the single largest fact and LEAST considered is the driving down of wages in the labor market. It's hard to make a living for a lot of people in the construction business these days because labor rates have been driven down by illegals willing to work for a fraction of the wage it cost an American to maintain his household. When 15 - 20 people come and share a $400 a month dwelling, their cost of living is substantially lower than a man with a wife and child paying $650 for rent. If that man wants to work, he has to lower his standard of living to match this cheap labor and meet their standard of living. It's not a good thing to have people driving our work force to live in poverty.

 

[starcraftzzz]

These 'open border' idiots always seem to overlook the fact that 100% of illegal aliens have by definition violated the laws of the US.

So what? If the government said that it was unlawful o be a christian would you then complain about Christians and want to jail them?
An person from another country moving to this country hurts no one, why are so bent on ruining millions of peoples lives?

You are mistaken there. Illegal immigration cost us money.

Do you mean this money?

Illegal immigrants add trillions to Americas GDP
Study predicts $1.5 trillion increase in GDP if undocumented immigrants are legalized. | ThinkProgress

Reason Foundation - Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
Illegal immigrants contribute a net 80,000 dollars in taxes over their lifetime. Meaning the 12 million illegal immigrants currently in America will contribute 1 trillion more dollars in taxes than they receive in benefits. Illegal immigrants still pay all state/local taxes (including sales and property) while paying some income taxes (some are paid under the table). Since illegal immigrants enter the country during their working years they do not cost the government in education costs. Also sine illegal immigrants are legally unable to get SS, Medicare or other social benefits they do not cost the government any money in those matters.

Why an Immigration-Status Check Will Make Your Insurance Premium Higher | ThinkProgress
^Illegal immigrants reduce insurance premiums and health care costs per capita, because immigrants come here during their working years, avoiding high costs young years and they use 55% less health services then Americans.

You are mistaken there. Illegal immigration cost us money.

The thing that really costs us money is all the efforts spent to deport immigrations prevent them from coming here and to prevent them from getting basic services

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/rewrite/budget/fy2008/homeland.html
^American governments spend 30 billion a year on enforcing immigration laws.

Special Reports | Immigration Policy Center
^The immigration law will likely increase government police costs.
1) 21 million in processing expenses.
2) 630 million in jail costs
3) 24 million in attorney and staff fees.
4) Yearly costs are estimated at 675 million or $104 per person.

http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/deporting_the_undocumented.pdf
^It would cost 300 billion over 5 years to deport 10 million illegal immigrants.


https://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5681/images/Pham article CO law.pdf
^Colorado spent 2 million a year on illegal immigrant health care verifications; the results were no evidence that illegals were getting health care and none were caught trying to.

Probably the single largest fact and LEAST considered is the driving down of wages in the labor market.

You do realize that rather then increasing wages/hiring other Americans most companies will simply offshore to poorer countries. It is better for America economy and all if we retain a large economy even if that means having a segment of the population working for lower wages then most Americans find suitable.

It's hard to make a living for a lot of people in the construction business these days because labor rates have been driven down by illegals willing to work for a fraction of the wage it cost an American to maintain his household.

Illegal seams to be making a living doing it...
What do you suggest? That because people are in hard times we spend billions kicking people out of their homes and jobs? I find it disgusting that your solution to suffering is to make other people suffer even more. What kind of human being are you?

 

[MaryL]

I think France, Germany and Great Britain seem rather weak on immigration, and it is presenting daunting issues that could have been avoided had they chosen a different path. Particularly regarding acclimation. America seems be to punishing illegal immigrants that are NOT Latin American, and ignoring the vast tsunami of undocumented Latino immigrants. There is a double standard regarding Latino immigrants. We can't expect them to acclimate. That would violate their rights. In fact, some of us seem to embrace them like some kind of victims. There is this kind of pervasive mindset among the trendy, the young and the wealthy to treat illegal aliens from Latin America as a cause célèbre. If Latinos want respect, they can earn it by paying it forward and immigrate legally and acclimate to the existing culture. I don't care how much they pay in taxes, they can still immigrate legally and learn English.

 

[Sweet Willy]

What kind of human being are you?

I am the sort of human being that looks at realities. You don't have to tell me how much illegals pay into the system. You're barking up the wrong tree. It's 7 - 10 billion a year we collect from them in Social Security payments that they can never collect. It's free money for SS. Same for a good chunk of federal taxes paid in under false and deceased SS numbers. BUT.... all of that is neither here nor there. There are some facts that have to be faced:

70% that is SEVENTY PERCENT of Americans view illegal immigration as a national priority. Now... what that means is, no matter what you or I think, there will be action on illegal immigration. As much as you think it doesn't make much sense and I know, like you, that we are likely to spend WAY MORE to get rid of them than it cost us to just leave them be, regardless, we are responding to illegal immigration. The issue is one fire. The reasonable approach, as with most things in life, is to not be an extremist on either side of the issue. The illegals are not US citizens and they are not supposed to be here working American jobs. Many of these jobs simply can't be outsourced, despite any claims to the contrary. So long as we have chicken and beef and pork at the meat counter, there will be meat processing jobs, an industry that has all but pushed out American workers for cheap, illegal labor. Same goes for construction. You can't out source construction jobs for buildings we build HERE. And currently, the people being hurt in our labor market are legal US citizens. To think that we should lower our standard of living to meet the standard of illegal foreign workers is not acceptable, not even to my moderate standards (radical left when compared to this jar of nuts).

Anyway...you're pretty much preaching to the choir. I have no personal problems with Hispanics or even illegal immigrants. But the facts are, they cause enough social and economic ripples that a huge swath of Americans want action on the issue. So we have hired 15,000 extra Border Patrol, put up fences, bought drones and surveillance, opened forward operating bases and on and on and despite all that money spent to satisfy the "frantics" the single thing that has caused more illegals than ever to turn around and go home, all on their own, was a massive loss of jobs in the construction industry. A million illegals went home, all on their own. No force, no money spent, no hard feelings, they went home because they WANTED TO.

This isn't rocket science. Take away the politics and the ethnic stuff and the race baiters and the plain hateful jerks and you have one thing left: JOBS. It's all about jobs.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I think France, Germany and Great Britain seem rather weak on immigration, and it is presenting daunting issues that could have been avoided had they chosen a different path. Particularly regarding acclimation. America seems be to punishing illegal immigrants that are NOT Latin American, and ignoring the vast tsunami of undocumented Latino immigrants. There is a double standard regarding Latino immigrants. We can't expect them to acclimate. That would violate their rights. In fact, some of us seem to embrace them like some kind of victims. There is this kind of pervasive mindset among the trendy, the young and the wealthy to treat illegal aliens from Latin America as a cause célèbre. If Latinos want respect, they can earn it by paying it forward and immigrating legally and acclimating to the existing culture. I don't care how much they pay in taxes, they can still immigrate legaly and learn English.

"IGNORE" is just a poor choice of words and probably a poor understanding of the situation. We share a 2,000 mile land border with a country full of poor people. We are a free market system that values cheap labor.

Again, this is not rocket science. If we had a border with Finland and they could earn 10X the pay, they would come also. And we'd be just as hard pressed to stop them. We aren't IGNORING it. We just hired 15,000 extra agents and a ton of new equipment and walls and fences. What most of you guys fail to grasp, no matter how many times it gets repeated is: THIS IS A 2,000 MILE BORDER THROUGH THE DESERT. This is not 90 miles through the middle of Berlin. It's not like the Berlin Wall and even THAT was a failure at keeping humans in or out. It was just a symbol. The fact is, WE CAN'T do much about it, security wise. It's like trying to stomp ants in the yard. You just can't stomp enough to make a dent. You guys fail to grasp logistic realities. You know why the Military isn't already down there? Cause any politician who has sat down with real military strategist have been told "We won't be effective at stopping unarmed pedestrians on a 2,000 mile border."

You guys have not educated yourselves on what the problem is. You have just listen to an accepted what you have heard. And what you have heard is not real world. Check around for some of the Patriot folks who thought they could go stand guard on the border as citizens. The honest ones will tell you that they sat their butts out in the sand looking at nothing. It's just TOO BIG. There is no effective and sustainable way to enforce it. Read up on walls and fences. Even short ones COST A LOAD OF MONEY to build and enforce.

I don't know what else to tell you. It can't be done. Even if we weren't already broke, we couldn't afford it. The only thing we can afford to do is threaten and enforce a handful of employers. And it is INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE when you take their jobs. There is no reason NOT to do it and every reason to do it.

 

[starcraftzzz]

What kind of human being are you?

I am the sort of human being that looks at realities.

Then why do you want to waste hundred of billions of dollars making the American economy smaller? Why do you want to ruin millions of peoples lives when they pay more in taxes then they get in benefits meaning you are mooching off of them?

You don't have to tell me how much illegals pay into the system. You're barking up the wrong tree. It's 7 - 10 billion a year we collect from them in Social Security payments that they can never collect. It's free money for SS. Same for a good chunk of federal taxes paid in under false and deceased SS numbers. BUT.... all of that is neither here nor there. There are some facts that have to be faced:

So according to you illegals making non Americans richer is a non factor? Why?

70% that is SEVENTY PERCENT of Americans view illegal immigration as a national priority.

I see so since I've completely debunked your ignorant view, you now saying that we have to ruin millions of lives, wast hundreds of billions of dollars, and make ourselfs poorer because the majority of Americans are uninformed and hateful like yourself.

. The issue is one fire.

Only cause brainwashed people like you somehow think ruining lvies and shrinking our economy is a good thing

The illegals are not US citizens and they are not supposed to be here working American jobs.

I pity that you feel so entitled that you don't want to compete with other workers perhaps if you want a better job you should get an education, or work harder instead of scapegoating others. Only a terrible person such as yourself would want to ruin other peoples lives just because you refuse to work or better yourself.

Many of these jobs simply can't be outsourced, despite any claims to the contrary. So long as we have chicken and beef and pork at the meat counter, there will be meat processing jobs,

Meat can be processed and packaged in any country.

Same goes for construction.

Furniture and house parts can be made in any country.

To think that we should lower our standard of living to meet the standard of illegal foreign workers is not acceptable, not even to my moderate standards (radical left when compared to this jar of nuts).

I see so the real difference in opinion is that you only care a rats ass about "certain groups" of people and doing things that help all groups is not good because we should only help our own group.

Anyway...you're pretty much preaching to the choir. I have no personal problems with Hispanics or even illegal immigrants.

Then why do you propose making yourself poorer in order to ruin their lives?