When did America cease to be the land of the forefathers?

[kirk2spock]

The American Colonies were established by England with the goal of expanding the realm of the British Empire and increasing its wealth. The New World was teaming with untapped resources and proved to be a rich ground upon which agriculture and industry could be formed for the benefit of the Empire. The Colonies were established to obtain this wealth and send it back to England to be used by her citizens.

For nearly 150 years this continued until the Colonies threw off the tyrannical rule of the English king and Parliament in order to establish a new government for themselves. They based this government on the freedoms inherent to all men – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The chief role of this government was to protect these freedoms for the common individual and establish a system whereby wrongs against these freedoms could be redressed. The Constitution lays down the goals of this government – establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for present and future generations. This was the ultimate extent of the government and its sphere of authority. It was a limited, small government that left to the individual many responsibilities and choices about how to best pursue their own happiness.

For a while the government was able to do just this. But in looking at the modern American government one can see that the form of government established by the forefathers no longer exists in the modern world. The present government has extended its influence far beyond what the Constitution originally proposed as the obligations of the government into the Leviathan it is today. Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers? What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

 

[daveman]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

We started the second sentence last century.

 

[Sallow]

The American Colonies were established by England with the goal of expanding the realm of the British Empire and increasing its wealth. The New World was teaming with untapped resources and proved to be a rich ground upon which agriculture and industry could be formed for the benefit of the Empire. The Colonies were established to obtain this wealth and send it back to England to be used by her citizens.

For nearly 150 years this continued until the Colonies threw off the tyrannical rule of the English king and Parliament in order to establish a new government for themselves. They based this government on the freedoms inherent to all men – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The chief role of this government was to protect these freedoms for the common individual and establish a system whereby wrongs against these freedoms could be redressed. The Constitution lays down the goals of this government – establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for present and future generations. This was the ultimate extent of the government and its sphere of authority. It was a limited, small government that left to the individual many responsibilities and choices about how to best pursue their own happiness.

For a while the government was able to do just this. But in looking at the modern American government one can see that the form of government established by the forefathers no longer exists in the modern world. The present government has extended its influence far beyond what the Constitution originally proposed as the obligations of the government into the Leviathan it is today. Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers? What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

Well maybe if the United States stayed as the original 13 colonies..the government would never have needed a reason to "grow".

 

[konradv]

The American Colonies were established by England with the goal of expanding the realm of the British Empire and increasing its wealth. The New World was teaming with untapped resources and proved to be a rich ground upon which agriculture and industry could be formed for the benefit of the Empire. The Colonies were established to obtain this wealth and send it back to England to be used by her citizens.

For nearly 150 years this continued until the Colonies threw off the tyrannical rule of the English king and Parliament in order to establish a new government for themselves. They based this government on the freedoms inherent to all men – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The chief role of this government was to protect these freedoms for the common individual and establish a system whereby wrongs against these freedoms could be redressed. The Constitution lays down the goals of this government – establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for present and future generations. This was the ultimate extent of the government and its sphere of authority. It was a limited, small government that left to the individual many responsibilities and choices about how to best pursue their own happiness.

For a while the government was able to do just this. But in looking at the modern American government one can see that the form of government established by the forefathers no longer exists in the modern world. The present government has extended its influence far beyond what the Constitution originally proposed as the obligations of the government into the Leviathan it is today. Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers? What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

Your premise is only valid if you buy into the notion of "original intent". Would you have us believe that all the Founders were of the same mind? Actually there were "original intents", which is why we have a relatively short and in some ways vague document, necessitating courts to make interpretations. As Jefferson said, it's for each generation to decide what it means and that we're not bound to their interpretation.

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson quotes

 

[Ravi]

When the religious right gained a choke hold.

 

[Madeline]

 

[antagon]

Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers?

i challenge this premise. the forefathers laid this government for their progeny, not themselves. i think that's what's been played out in history, and for the betterment of the nation, undoubtedly.

What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

1. government in action. the constitution lays but a framework for actual legislations to follow through with. such has been pursued to the effect of today's america.

2. i think liberty has changed. there has been a recognition of economic and democratic liberty of which the founders didn't seem to have a concept or appreciation. the US has empowered americans with some of that liberty since.

 

[edthecynic]

With the election of Ronald Wilson Reagan.

 

[konradv]

With the election of Ronald Wilson Reagan.

Ahh... yes, 6-6-6!

 

[regent]

No government can stay the same, that was England's problem and why she lost the colonies. She kept her mercantilism economy going, her elitism, and her concept of what America place was in the world, even as the colonies and the world were changing. It is usually the dream of conservatives to keep things just as they are, to conserve them, and it doesn't work. Things and people change, and like it or not, they will continue to change. Look at the changes in America since 1789, changes in population from somewhere around 4million to 300 million, we moved from a farming nation to manufacaturing. Politically we have changed, women can now vote, people vote for the president and vote for their Senators. Changes will continue. The problem is not change, we can't stop that, the problem is what changes.
"No society, can make a perpetual Constitution, or even a perpetual law." Thomas Jefferson

 

[Salt Jones]

When this was written:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

and slavery was allowed to continue.

 

[regent]

When this was written:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

and slavery was allowed to continue.

Yep, even Jefferson, the slave holder, put into his Declaration a charge against George III that he, George, allowed the American slave trade. That was removed from the document because the slave state's votes were needed for the Declaration and later the Constitutiion. Do we have the same problem going today, practices which in one hundred years will be questioned as unAmerican, but at this time make sense to us?

 

[Katzndogz]

The Constitution is no longer adequate or even applicable. John Adams said that the Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governing of any other.

At the time our remarkable government was formed, Benjamin Franklin saw that it would end. He said:

there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

They knew at the time they signed, and fought, and died for the new nation that it would end, and how it would end. This is the way it ends. With the NEED for a despotic government because the people are so corrupt. As with all corrupt people and despotic governments, they believe they are acting only for the public good. The people will be better off with despots and tyrants acting for their best interests. The public good demands it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The American Colonies were established by England with the goal of expanding the realm of the British Empire and increasing its wealth. The New World was teaming with untapped resources and proved to be a rich ground upon which agriculture and industry could be formed for the benefit of the Empire. The Colonies were established to obtain this wealth and send it back to England to be used by her citizens.

For nearly 150 years this continued until the Colonies threw off the tyrannical rule of the English king and Parliament in order to establish a new government for themselves. They based this government on the freedoms inherent to all men – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The chief role of this government was to protect these freedoms for the common individual and establish a system whereby wrongs against these freedoms could be redressed. The Constitution lays down the goals of this government – establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for present and future generations. This was the ultimate extent of the government and its sphere of authority. It was a limited, small government that left to the individual many responsibilities and choices about how to best pursue their own happiness.

For a while the government was able to do just this. But in looking at the modern American government one can see that the form of government established by the forefathers no longer exists in the modern world. The present government has extended its influence far beyond what the Constitution originally proposed as the obligations of the government into the Leviathan it is today. Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers? What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

Your premise is only valid if you buy into the notion of "original intent". Would you have us believe that all the Founders were of the same mind? Actually there were "original intents", which is why we have a relatively short and in some ways vague document, necessitating courts to make interpretations. As Jefferson said, it's for each generation to decide what it means and that we're not bound to their interpretation.

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson quotes

Actually, there’s no situation where the OP’s premise is valid, as there is no such thing as ‘originalism.’

The Framers understood they were creating a Constitutional Republic whose citizens were subject only to the rule of law.

Moreover, conservative constitutional dogma with regard to ‘originalism’ is in of itself an interpretation, no more or less valid than any other interpretive dogma.

The Constitution is no longer adequate or even applicable.

Nonsense,

The Constitution is as applicable today as then, if not more so.

As Justice Kennedy correctly observed in Lawrence, striking down as un-Constitutional state laws criminalizing homosexuality:

Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.

LAWRENCE V. TEXAS

 

[uscitizen]

Actually with divorce and remarriage rampant we are the land of fourfathers.

My first wife has 4 children all with different fathers.

 

[whitehall]

It's still "government of the people, by the people and for the people". We don't work for politicians, they work for us. Americans got complacent and a bit lazy and during the last 100 years we relied on glitz disguised as news and hollywood disguised as reality. As soon as Americans learn to think again and understand the gift of the Constitution and freedom we will get back what we gave away.

 

[Katzndogz]

Same sex marriage, our acceptance of it and the normalization accorded to it only advances the degeneracy and depravity that is generally infecting the nation, sickening it and will eventually kill it.

If we eliminated the whole concept of same sex marriage from the venue of normal relationships the nation would not be saved, the lesion and infection of degeneracy would just manifest elsewhere.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's still "government of the people, by the people and for the people". We don't work for politicians, they work for us. Americans got complacent and a bit lazy and during the last 100 years we relied on glitz disguised as news and hollywood disguised as reality. As soon as Americans learn to think again and understand the gift of the Constitution and freedom we will get back what we gave away.

You keep thinking that. Americans have no intention of ever learning to think again. They want the government to make those decisions for them.

 

[uscitizen]

It's still "government of the people, by the people and for the people". We don't work for politicians, they work for us. Americans got complacent and a bit lazy and during the last 100 years we relied on glitz disguised as news and hollywood disguised as reality. As soon as Americans learn to think again and understand the gift of the Constitution and freedom we will get back what we gave away.

You keep thinking that. Americans have no intention of ever learning to think again. They want the government to make those decisions for them.

Both sides.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The American Colonies were established by England with the goal of expanding the realm of the British Empire and increasing its wealth. The New World was teaming with untapped resources and proved to be a rich ground upon which agriculture and industry could be formed for the benefit of the Empire. The Colonies were established to obtain this wealth and send it back to England to be used by her citizens.

For nearly 150 years this continued until the Colonies threw off the tyrannical rule of the English king and Parliament in order to establish a new government for themselves. They based this government on the freedoms inherent to all men – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The chief role of this government was to protect these freedoms for the common individual and establish a system whereby wrongs against these freedoms could be redressed. The Constitution lays down the goals of this government – establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty for present and future generations. This was the ultimate extent of the government and its sphere of authority. It was a limited, small government that left to the individual many responsibilities and choices about how to best pursue their own happiness.

For a while the government was able to do just this. But in looking at the modern American government one can see that the form of government established by the forefathers no longer exists in the modern world. The present government has extended its influence far beyond what the Constitution originally proposed as the obligations of the government into the Leviathan it is today. Our modern American government is not what the American forefathers designed it to be. This begs the question, when in American history did the American government cease to be the government laid down by the forefathers? What caused this change that pushed our government in the direction it is currently moving in away from individual responsibility and control toward more government control over individuals? Is liberty today the same as it was 200 years ago?

Since the days of the founding the government has grown. Wanting to go forward into the past is a silly argument.

Jefferson and Madison had battles with Hamilton and Chief Justice John Marshall over growth and the meaning and interpretation of the US Constitution. Jefferson and Madison were all over the place where ideology clashed with realities.

stop acting like you understand the history. you don't. all you do is parrot pseudo intellectual arguments based on grievances lost at the ballot box and in the halls of government.

If you hate America so much, why don't you pack up and move to hell?