What would we (USA) gain with an Obama presidency?

[Charles_Main]

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org

one linke deserves another.
Free Market Cure - Socialized Medicine is Sicko

 

[Charles_Main]

how did he get the MRI if you couldnt pay for it?

they call it medicare any child whos parents can not afford to cover with insurance qualifies for medicare. Plus if it is an emergancey, You can not be refused treatment, even if medicare does not cover you.

 

[Chris]

they call it medicare. Plus if it is an emergancey, You can not be refused treatment, even if medicare does not cover you.

Not everyone qualifies for medicare. People put off medical treatment because they cannot afford it. Then they get worse and end up in the emergency room. This is one of the reasons our healthcare is so expensive. We are penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[Chris]

one linke deserves another.
Free Market Cure - Socialized Medicine is Sicko

1. Canada's health care system is "socialized medicine."
False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.

The proper term for this is "single-payer insurance." In talking to Americans about it, the better phrase is "Medicare for all."

2. Doctors are hurt financially by single-payer health care.
True and False. Doctors in Canada do make less than their US counterparts. But they also have lower overhead, and usually much better working conditions. A few reasons for this:

First, as noted, they don't have to charge higher fees to cover the salary of a full-time staffer to deal with over a hundred different insurers, all of whom are bent on denying care whenever possible. In fact, most Canadian doctors get by quite nicely with just one assistant, who cheerfully handles the phones, mail, scheduling, patient reception, stocking, filing, and billing all by herself in the course of a standard workday.

Second, they don't have to spend several hours every day on the phone cajoling insurance company bean counters into doing the right thing by their patients. My doctor in California worked a 70-hour week: 35 hours seeing patients, and another 35 hours on the phone arguing with insurance companies. My Canadian doctor, on the other hand, works a 35-hour week, period. She files her invoices online, and the vast majority are simply paid -- quietly, quickly, and without hassle. There is no runaround. There are no fights. Appointments aren't interrupted by vexing phone calls. Care is seldom denied (because everybody knows the rules). She gets her checks on time, sees her patients on schedule, takes Thursdays off, and gets home in time for dinner.

One unsurprising side effect of all this is that the doctors I see here are, to a person, more focused, more relaxed, more generous with their time, more up-to-date in their specialties, and overall much less distracted from the real work of doctoring. You don't realize how much stress the American doctor-insurer fights put on the day-to-day quality of care until you see doctors who don't operate under that stress, because they never have to fight those battles at all. Amazingly: they seem to enjoy their jobs.

Third: The average American medical student graduates $140,000 in hock. The average Canadian doctor's debt is roughly half that.

Finally, Canadian doctors pay lower malpractice insurance fees. When paying for health care constitutes a one of a family's major expenses, expectations tend to run very high. A doctor's mistake not only damages the body; it may very well throw a middle-class family permanently into the ranks of the working poor, and render the victim uninsurable for life. With so much at stake, it's no wonder people are quick to rush to court for redress.

Canadians are far less likely to sue in the first place, since they're not having to absorb devastating financial losses in addition to any physical losses when something goes awry. The cost of the damaging treatment will be covered. So will the cost of fixing it. And, no matter what happens, the victim will remain insured for life. When lawsuits do occur, the awards don't have to include coverage for future medical costs, which reduces the insurance company's liability.

3. Wait times in Canada are horrendous.
True and False again -- it depends on which province you live in, and what's wrong with you. Canada's health care system runs on federal guidelines that ensure uniform standards of care, but each territory and province administers its own program. Some provinces don't plan their facilities well enough; in those, you can have waits. Some do better. As a general rule, the farther north you live, the harder it is to get to care, simply because the doctors and hospitals are concentrated in the south. But that's just as true in any rural county in the U.S.

You can hear the bitching about it no matter where you live, though. The percentage of Canadians who'd consider giving up their beloved system consistently languishes in the single digits. A few years ago, a TV show asked Canadians to name the Greatest Canadian in history; and in a broad national consensus, they gave the honor to Tommy Douglas, the Saskatchewan premier who is considered the father of the country's health care system. (And no, it had nothing to do with the fact that he was also Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather.). In spite of that, though, grousing about health care is still unofficially Canada's third national sport after curling and hockey.

And for the country's newspapers, it's a prime watchdogging opportunity. Any little thing goes sideways at the local hospital, and it's on the front pages the next day. Those kinds of stories sell papers, because everyone is invested in that system and has a personal stake in how well it functions. The American system might benefit from this kind of constant scrutiny, because it's certainly one of the things that keeps the quality high. But it also makes people think it's far worse than it is.

Critics should be reminded that the American system is not exactly instant-on, either. When I lived in California, I had excellent insurance, and got my care through one of the best university-based systems in the nation. Yet I routinely had to wait anywhere from six to twelve weeks to get in to see a specialist. Non-emergency surgical waits could be anywhere from four weeks to four months. After two years in the BC system, I'm finding the experience to be pretty much comparable, and often better. The notable exception is MRIs, which were easy in California, but can take many months to get here. (It's the number one thing people go over the border for.) Other than that, urban Canadians get care about as fast as urban Americans do.

4. You have to wait forever to get a family doctor.
False for the vast majority of Canadians, but True for a few. Again, it all depends on where you live. I live in suburban Vancouver, and there are any number of first-rate GPs in my neighborhood who are taking new patients. If you don't have a working relationship with one, but need to see a doctor now, there are 24-hour urgent care clinics in most neighborhoods that will usually get you in and out on the minor stuff in under an hour.

It is, absolutely, harder to get to a doctor if you live out in a small town, or up in the territories. But that's just as true in the U.S. -- and in America, the government won't cover the airfare for rural folk to come down to the city for needed treatment, which all the provincial plans do.

5. You don't get to choose your own doctor.
Scurrilously False. Somebody, somewhere, is getting paid a lot of money to make this kind of stuff up. The cons love to scare the kids with stories about the government picking your doctor for you, and you don't get a choice. Be afraid! Be very afraid!

For the record: Canadians pick their own doctors, just like Americans do. And not only that: since it all pays the same, poor Canadians have exactly the same access to the country's top specialists that rich ones do.

6. Canada's care plan only covers the basics. You're still on your own for any extras, including prescription drugs. And you still have to pay for it.
True -- but not as big an issue as you might think. The province does charge a small monthly premium (ours is $108/month for a family of four) for the basic coverage. However, most people never even have to write that check: almost all employers pick up the tab for their employees' premiums as part of the standard benefits package; and the province covers it for people on public assistance or disability.

"The basics" covered by this plan include 100% of all doctor's fees, ambulance fares, tests, and everything that happens in a hospital -- in other words, the really big-ticket items that routinely drive American families into bankruptcy. In BC, it doesn't include "extras" like medical equipment, prescriptions, physical therapy or chiropractic care, dental, vision, and so on; and if you want a private or semi-private room with TV and phone, that costs extra (about what you'd pay for a room in a middling hotel). That other stuff does add up; but it's far easier to afford if you're not having to cover the big expenses, too. Furthermore: you can deduct any out-of-pocket health expenses you do have to pay off your income taxes. And, as every American knows by now, drugs aren't nearly as expensive here, either.

Filling the gap between the basics and the extras is the job of the country's remaining private health insurers. Since they're off the hook for the ruinously expensive big-ticket items that can put their own profits at risk, the insurance companies make a tidy business out of offering inexpensive policies that cover all those smaller, more predictable expenses. Top-quality add-on policies typically run in the ballpark of $75 per person in a family per month -- about $300 for a family of four -- if you're stuck buying an individual plan. Group plans are cheap enough that even small employers can afford to offer them as a routine benefit. An average working Canadian with employer-paid basic care and supplemental insurance gets free coverage equal to the best policies now only offered at a few of America's largest corporations. And that employer is probably only paying a couple hundred dollars a month to provide that benefit.

7. Canadian drugs are not the same.
More preposterious bogosity. They are exactly the same drugs, made by the same pharmaceutical companies, often in the same factories. The Canadian drug distribution system, however, has much tighter oversight; and pharmacies and pharmacists are more closely regulated. If there is a difference in Canadian drugs at all, they're actually likely to be safer.

Also: pharmacists here dispense what the doctors tell them to dispense, the first time, without moralizing. I know. It's amazing.

8. Publicly-funded programs will inevitably lead to rationed health care, particularly for the elderly.
False. And bogglingly so. The papers would have a field day if there was the barest hint that this might be true.

One of the things that constantly amazes me here is how well-cared-for the elderly and disabled you see on the streets here are. No, these people are not being thrown out on the curb. In fact, they live longer, healthier, and more productive lives because they're getting a constant level of care that ensures small things get treated before they become big problems.

The health care system also makes it easier on their caregiving adult children, who have more time to look in on Mom and take her on outings because they aren't working 60-hour weeks trying to hold onto a job that gives them insurance.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org

 

[busara]

Not everyone qualifies for medicare. People put off medical treatment because they cannot afford it. Then they get worse and end up in the emergency room. This is one of the reasons our healthcare is so expensive. We are penny wise and pound foolish.

these are the things i was driving at
if her son got an MRI through medicare or a similar program, that was socialistic medicine helping her!

 

[Jeepers]

they call it medicare any child whos parents can not afford to cover with insurance qualifies for medicare. Plus if it is an emergancey, You can not be refused treatment, even if medicare does not cover you.

You mean we already have universal healthcare? Jeeps is aghast...

 

[42Presidents]

Kirk,

You bring up a number of good points in regards to Canadian healthcare. What you've described appears to have some strengths and weaknesses, just like the current healthcare system in the U.S. Yes, the current U.S. system is in need of some repair and I personally am working in the industry so I'm doing what I can to improve it. However, I don't believe the answer is simply to switch over to Universal Healthcare. That sort of overhaul is a process that I don't believe this country is capable of, let alone able to afford it.

Maybe it would be a consideration if the country was in a more stable state financially, but its not. The country's financial situation is so tepid right now that it truly cannot afford to make the switch. It's too quick and too much right now. The country has to focus on straightening itself financially. If it doesn't do that, the future looks grim for the U.S.

 

[Chris]

Kirk,

You bring up a number of good points in regards to Canadian healthcare. What you've described appears to have some strengths and weaknesses, just like the current healthcare system in the U.S. Yes, the current U.S. system is in need of some repair and I personally am working in the industry so I'm doing what I can to improve it. However, I don't believe the answer is simply to switch over to Universal Healthcare. That sort of overhaul is a process that I don't believe this country is capable of, let alone able to afford it.

Maybe it would be a consideration if the country was in a more stable state financially, but its not. The country's financial situation is so tepid right now that it truly cannot afford to make the switch. It's too quick and too much right now. The country has to focus on straightening itself financially. If it doesn't do that, the future looks grim for the U.S.

Universal healthcare is cheaper per capita than our current system. All the other Western countries spend half per capita what we spend for healthcare.

We need to bring the troops home from Iraq, institute fuel requirements for all vehicles, and start a project for American Energy Independence. We also need to stop whinning and start working.

 

[42Presidents]

Universal healthcare may be cheaper in the long run but the transition will cost billions. We cannot afford it. We are playing with Monopoly money as it is.

The other items you mentioned are already in motion. I totally agree with your last statement, "stop whining and start working." Didn't one of McCain's campaign managers get blasted for stating a similar comment, "We are a nation of whiners."

By the way, you mentioned that you live in Vancouver, are you Canadian or an American living in Canada?

 

[Chris]

Universal healthcare may be cheaper in the long run but the transition will cost billions. We cannot afford it. We are playing with Monopoly money as it is.

The other items you mentioned are already in motion. I totally agree with your last statement, "stop whining and start working." Didn't one of McCain's campaign managers get blasted for stating a similar comment, "We are a nation of whiners."

By the way, you mentioned that you live in Vancouver, are you Canadian or an American living in Canada?

I live in Virginia, not Vancouver. I wish I lived in Vancouver. My GF has Crohn's disease, and she would be covered by the Canadian system there which would be much better.

 

[Jeepers]

I wonder how many people choose not to work because of an existing condition and the way our current health system works... Maybe choose is not the right word cause there really is not an alternative in this case .. anywho.. I would venture to say that numbers could be in the millions...

Anyone know where to find that stat...

 

[sealybobo]

With such a high cost election in progress and a very passionate wave of supporters on both sides of the aisle, the expectations for one candidate or the other appear to be extremely high. So what should we expect with an Obama presidency? (I will ask the same question for McCain in a separate posting)

McCain doesn't have a "passionate wave of supporters". I can show you how the religious right is not excited about McCain and neither are young republicans.

Expect fiscal responsibility. That doesn't mean killing social programs that are important or neglecting bridges and levys so you can give more money to your defense contractor buddies. Expect to restore our good name with the rest of the world. Expect better relations with countries like Iran. Expect the middle class to start doing better, which is the only way to get the economy back to normal. Expect necessary regulations on industries that have been running unchecked for 8 years. Expect credit card companies won't be able to charge 20% interest on your debt. Expect that we stop borrowing billions from China and just throwing it on the debt. Expect NAFTA to be fixed so it doesn't hurt American workers. Expect our illegal immigrant problem to become an illegal employer problem. Expect unemployment to go down. Expect that tax breaks for companies going overseas to end. Expect a 9-11 report that will actually tell us what really happened. Expect US Attorneys and a Justice Department that is not politicized. Expect FEMA, GAO and all other presidential appointees to actually know what they are doing. Expect liberal judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court so Roe vs. Wade isn't overturned. Expect freedoms and rights that we had pre Bush to be restored. Habius Corpus, no spying on Americans, etc. Expect torture to be officially banned.

 

[DiamondDave]

McCain doesn't have a "passionate wave of supporters". I can show you how the religious right is not excited about McCain and neither are young republicans.

Expect fiscal responsibility. That doesn't mean killing social programs that are important or neglecting bridges and levys so you can give more money to your defense contractor buddies. Expect to restore our good name with the rest of the world. Expect better relations with countries like Iran. Expect the middle class to start doing better, which is the only way to get the economy back to normal. Expect necessary regulations on industries that have been running unchecked for 8 years. Expect credit card companies won't be able to charge 20% interest on your debt. Expect that we stop borrowing billions from China and just throwing it on the debt. Expect NAFTA to be fixed so it doesn't hurt American workers. Expect our illegal immigrant problem to become an illegal employer problem. Expect unemployment to go down. Expect that tax breaks for companies going overseas to end. Expect a 9-11 report that will actually tell us what really happened. Expect US Attorneys and a Justice Department that is not politicized. Expect FEMA, GAO and all other presidential appointees to actually know what they are doing. Expect liberal judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court so Roe vs. Wade isn't overturned. Expect freedoms and rights that we had pre Bush to be restored. Habius Corpus, no spying on Americans, etc. Expect torture to be officially banned.

Use many more baseless slogans?

You are so full of shit... nearly as full of shit as Obama himself

Fiscal responsibility? BULLSHIT... increased spending on social programs and nationalized healthcare... all of which are the personal responsibilities of individuals, not the responsibility of everyone around your lazy ass

better relations with Iran?? Are you freaking kidding? Appeasement will not "improve relations" with that whack-job regime

Cowering to popularity of other nations is not 'restoring our good name'... again... another liberal acting like the world is a high school popularity contest and nothing matters except being popular

Increased taxes and a punishment tax system is not going to help any middle class... it will help the libtards with talking points that facilitate buying the votes of the low income ignorant

You just keep going down hill from there... truly a clueless lib

 

[sealybobo]

Fiscal responsibility? BULLSHIT... increased spending on social programs and nationalized healthcare... all of which are the personal responsibilities of individuals, not the responsibility of everyone around your lazy ass

better relations with Iran?? Are you freaking kidding? Appeasement will not "improve relations" with that whack-job regime

Cowering to popularity of other nations is not 'restoring our good name'... again... another liberal acting like the world is a high school popularity contest and nothing matters except being popular

Increased taxes and a punishment tax system is not going to help any middle class... it will help the libtards with talking points that facilitate buying the votes of the low income ignorant

You just keep going down hill from there... truly a clueless lib

Taking the cost of healthcare away from companies will really help them be more profitable and competitive Dave. Although I won't explain in detail because you won't listen or understand. And healthcare as it is now is way more expensive than it should be. So don't worry about paying for others because you already do when emergency rooms take in people that are uninsured. And it doesn't have to be inferior healthcare Dave. We can do better than other countries in that respect. And it won't be exactly socialized health. Look at the great healthcare Congress has. That's exactly what we want.

What will work with Iran Dave? The bomb?

You want the rest of the world to hate us? I can't believe Obama's popularity is a negative for you.

How will we pay for Bush's 1 trillion dollar deficit spending without raising taxes Dave? Clearly you are not an economics major. We can't do it by just cutting spending and social programs. Only a fool thinks otherwise.

And back to healthcare. Just like paying for the firemen is not your responsibility, I don't think you should have to pay $100,000 when you get cancer. Just like a life insurance policy. Together we can share the risk. If you get cancer, you will be taken care of. If I get it, I will be taken care of. I may never get cancer, but just in case, we should all be covered to spread the risk.

Republicans always want to socialize losses and privatize the profits. Every notice that?

 

[editec]

With such a high cost election in progress and a very passionate wave of supporters on both sides of the aisle, the expectations for one candidate or the other appear to be extremely high. So what should we expect with an Obama presidency? (I will ask the same question for McCain in a separate posting)

Lions will lay down with lambs.

All children will be above average.

The streets will be paved with gold.

Lemonade stands everywhere.
Crackerjack bands will fill the air.
When there we are
Happy landing on a chocolate bar.

 

[DiamondDave]

healthcare is not a charge of the federal government, nor any government,.... your care for your person and the health of your family is a PERSONAL responsibility... and you notice with you libs... it is what you "WANT"... boo hoo hoo... you want something, earn it and pay for it

What will work with Iran.... a freaking BACKBONE... no negotiation with despots and tyrannical regimes... you do not coddle them....

Popularity is not what it is all about.... I could not possibly care less how the populace of Prance, or Bolivia, or Chad, or Canada things of us.... just like when raising kids and having them deal with the socialization factor and the performance in school, "Don't worry about popularity... worry about what matters"

Hmmm... how do you cut a debt? Well, no president has done this in MANY years.... how you start, you cut unnecessary government spending on your little handouts and earmarks and everything else that the government should not have it's grubby hands in thanks to libtard politicians and even the greedy ones who somehow call themselves "conservative" even though their actions show otherwise... If you keep tax revenues up while cutting the expenses, you will cut your debt... and you do not continue to punish your largest earners.. it is not the government's job to act all Robin Hood... as justice is blind, so should be burden.... leave it to a libtard to punish those who achieve

And as for your final healthcare "argument"... your health, or your constipation, or your broken finger, or your next checkup, is YOUR responsibility.... it is not OUR shared responsibility... you know, personal responsibility. Something you libtards don't believe in

 

[42Presidents]

I live in Virginia, not Vancouver. I wish I lived in Vancouver. My GF has Crohn's disease, and she would be covered by the Canadian system there which would be much better.

I was reading what you wrote in your earlier message and the references to living in Canada, "I live in suburban Vancouver, and there are any number of first-rate GPs in my neighborhood who are taking new patients."

So why is your girlfriend not covered? Does she not have health insurance? Or is it a case of "pre-existing condition?"

 

[sealybobo]

healthcare is not a charge of the federal government, nor any government,.... your care for your person and the health of your family is a PERSONAL responsibility... and you notice with you libs... it is what you "WANT"... boo hoo hoo... you want something, earn it and pay for it

What will work with Iran.... a freaking BACKBONE... no negotiation with despots and tyrannical regimes... you do not coddle them....

Popularity is not what it is all about.... I could not possibly care less how the populace of Prance, or Bolivia, or Chad, or Canada things of us.... just like when raising kids and having them deal with the socialization factor and the performance in school, "Don't worry about popularity... worry about what matters"

Hmmm... how do you cut a debt? Well, no president has done this in MANY years.... how you start, you cut unnecessary government spending on your little handouts and earmarks and everything else that the government should not have it's grubby hands in thanks to libtard politicians and even the greedy ones who somehow call themselves "conservative" even though their actions show otherwise... If you keep tax revenues up while cutting the expenses, you will cut your debt... and you do not continue to punish your largest earners.. it is not the government's job to act all Robin Hood... as justice is blind, so should be burden.... leave it to a libtard to punish those who achieve

And as for your final healthcare "argument"... your health, or your constipation, or your broken finger, or your next checkup, is YOUR responsibility.... it is not OUR shared responsibility... you know, personal responsibility. Something you libtards don't believe in

Do you think you should pay the fire department if your house is burning? I don't have kids. I should not pay for your retarded kids to ride the short bus then either. But these things are funded by tax payers because it is for the good of society as a whole. Same with healthcare.

And do you think emergency rooms should turn away the uninsured? That is costing us tax payers the most. Side note. Do you know why the GOP didn't fix that problem the 6 years they were in control? Because they employ illegal immigrants and/or they have small business' that don't offer insurance. Just another way the rich are taking advantage of the system. They don't mind us tax payers footing the bill for those emergency room visits because it takes that burden off their plates. So I can see a whole bunch of reasons why they, and you, don't want socialized medicine, but I see very few good reasons why not. Key word being GOOD reasons. Tax payers would pay less if we socialize medicine. Fact.

No, we do want the United States to be looked at favorably. We used to stand on the moral high ground. We used to be admired. We want that back.

Bush not only negotiated with N. Korea, he gave them billions of dollars to stop testing nukes. Your tough guy approach doesn't work when we are spread thin. These "rogue" nations could break us financially, especially when we don't have the backing of the rest of the world. That's why you want the world to look at us favorably.

 

[Steerpike]

Good point. I should change that to a wave of supporters on one side and a segment of grudgingly and unsatisfied voter bloc on the other.

There are a fair number of people who are for McCain, they're just not the people on the far right wing of the party.

 

[42Presidents]

I believe there are a lot of folks for McCain, they are just not overly excited over him. He's not your traditional red blooded conservative. Which is what makes him attractive for folks in the middle or independents.

The political spectrum has shifted. You have a candidate in Obama who swings quite a bit to the Left and a candidate in McCain whose just right of center. The far right wing folks are feeling disenchanted because they don't have someone to represent them, which is understandable. Whether people like it or not, there is a large segment of religious/evangelical conservatives and when they don't have representation, that creates a lot of heat.

If Obama is elected, IMO, the division in this country is going to grow and become more heated.