Zone1 What was the point of asking for the sacrifice of Isaac by his Father? Gen. 22

[ding]

Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his Son? And why did he say Abraham's ONLY son? Ishmael was also a son of Abraham. Isaac wasn't even the first born. So, I'd like to see responses by Jews, Muslims and Christians on this.

Do you believe Abraham was a historical person and his account in Genesis is an historical account?

 

[Cougarbear]

My guess is that God wanted his servant Abraham to know and understand the sacrifice it was for God the Father to sacrifice his Only Begotten Son for the sins of all the world. Isaac was Abraham's only son through Sarah. Isaac was the firstborn of Sarah. True, Isaac wasn't Abraham's only begotten but he was his only begotten through Sarah and Isaac was a long awaited blessing to Abraham and Sarah. Perhaps Abraham understood to a degree the sacrifice it was for the Father to sacrifice his firstborn son of the spirit and his only begotten son of the flesh for all the rest of his children. God didn't actually make Abraham go through with the sacrifice but simply made him go through all the feelings and trial of going through it. Hopefully Abraham's appreciation for our Father in Heaven was greatly increased.

Finally someone with excellent logic and reasoning.

 

[Cougarbear]

Do you believe Abraham was a historical person and his account in Genesis is an historical account?

Yes I do. Next question.

 

[ding]

Yes I do. Next question.

Do you believe George Washington chopping down a cherry tree was a historical event?

 

[ding]

Finally someone with excellent logic and reasoning.

That's like one seagull telling another seagull how handsome he is.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

My guess is that God wanted his servant Abraham to know and understand the sacrifice it was for God the Father to sacrifice his Only Begotten Son for the sins of mankind.

Cover Story

The rabbis analyzed their sacred texts over and over again and never came up with the irresponsible idea of atonement, which gets people off the hook. It's like a boss being upset at his employees' performance and then whipping his son in front of them to teach them a lesson. It makes no sense at all.

It carries over to the present. The "born-again" having all their past crimes and bad behavior wiped clean and never having to make amends for them.

Jesus was executed for offending the Hebrew religion's hierarchy. The Christian hierarchy didn't want that idea to get around, so they made up the absurd idea of atonement. In other words, Jesus was the first Protestant, suffering the fate of many others, the most famous being Jan Hus.

 

[Woodznutz]

Cover Story

The rabbis analyzed their sacred texts over and over again and never came up with the irresponsible idea of atonement, which gets people off the hook. It's like a boss being upset at his employees' performance and then whipping his son in front of them to teach them a lesson. It makes no sense at all.

It carries over to the present. The "born-again" having all their past crimes and bad behavior wiped clean and never having to make amends for them.

Jesus was executed for offending the Hebrew religion's hierarchy. The Christian hierarchy didn't want that idea to get around, so they made up the absurd idea of atonement. In other words, Jesus was the first Protestant, suffering the fate of many others, the most famous being Jan Hus.

Jesus' sacrifice is concerned with the hereafter, not the here-and-now and doesn't let people off the hook for their sins.

 

[onefour1]

Cover Story

The rabbis analyzed their sacred texts over and over again and never came up with the irresponsible idea of atonement, which gets people off the hook. It's like a boss being upset at his employees' performance and then whipping his son in front of them to teach them a lesson. It makes no sense at all.

It carries over to the present. The "born-again" having all their past crimes and bad behavior wiped clean and never having to make amends for them.

Jesus was executed for offending the Hebrew religion's hierarchy. The Christian hierarchy didn't want that idea to get around, so they made up the absurd idea of atonement. In other words, Jesus was the first Protestant, suffering the fate of many others, the most famous being Jan Hus.

The atonement is a difficult doctrine for many to understand fully. I am not even sure that I myself fully understand it completely. But I will try to tell you how I understand it. The first thing that you must understand is that there is a part of man that is as eternal as God. That part of mankind is known as mankind's intelligence. The part of man that thinks and chooses and constitutes his/her mind was never created or made and nether indeed can be. It has always existed. These intelligences that have always existed are all perfect but are subject to the capacity to learn and increase in knowledge of intelligence. It is important to understand that God does not create things from nothing. That is an old wives tale. Intelligence and matter have always existed. They are eternal in nature. Creation is not the process of causing things to pop out of non-existence into existence but to organize matter and intelligence into organized things. The reason God does not create us as perfect beings like himself is because he creates us out of self-existing intelligence and matter that is not in a perfected state. These truths were revealed unto the Prophet Joseph Smith in the following Latter-day verses:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Here it is revealed that the intelligence of man is self-existent and cannot be created or made, not even by God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Here it is revealed that the elements are eternal in nature and also were not created or made. Matter come in two varieties, ie spirit matter and the more course matter that we can see in our life.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Before coming to this life, we were all born as the spirit offspring (children) of our Father and Mother in heaven. The process of spiritual birth combined our self-existent intelligence with self-existent matter to form our spirits. Through a similar process we were born into this world as mortal children of our earthly parents.

Because our intelligence is not perfect, God has provided a process known as mortal life for us to learn about good and evil and learn to overcome the evil and to choose the good. For a being to truly be a good being in and of himself/herself, they must learn to choose goodness of their own free will and choice. Thus they can progress and become more like God. This is why free will is critical to God's plan and also why we are not created as perfect beings. God could not create our intelligence but could only attempt to bring it along through our free will and choice to be better beings. Once you understand these things, you can better understand the purposes of God.

Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It is the purpose of God to give his spirit offspring the opportunity as self-existing intelligences with bodies to progress and become more perfect over time. Since God cannot simply create us to be perfect, He must try to bring this about by some other means. This mortal life is a part of how God seeks to bring about our progression towards perfection. God knows that we are imperfect beings from eternity past and that He could not simply create us to be perfect. He fully knows and understands that in our path to progression we are going to make mistakes and fall short of keeping God's law perfectly. According to God's law of justice, we all fall short and are not worthy of the kingdom of heaven. God knew we would all fall short but prepared a plan called "the plan of mercy" from the beginning. But God realized that mankind must change their disposition of desiring evil to a disposition of desiring to do good else if they were allowed into the kingdom of heaven, they would continue in sin and break the laws of his heavenly kingdom. Thus God understood that mankind, before gaining mercy would need to repent and experience a change of heart to do good instead of evil. Repentance would then need to be a requirement for gaining the mercy needed to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

God also realized that mercy cannot rob justice. It would need to be a just act to grant mercy unto those who break God's laws and commit sin. If we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none of us are justified in being allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is an unjust act to allow sinners into the kingdom of heaven. Mercy cannot rob justice. On our own merits were are unworthy of the kingdom of heaven. So how does God overcome this issue. He understood this problem from the beginning and came up with a solution The law of mercy would have to overpower the demands of justice. To do this, God would have to send down to this earth a being who would do no sin. This being would need to pay the price of sin for all mankind. This would require a being who was not only sinless but also have the capacity to undergo immense pain and suffering and be able to bear such an immense amount of suffering. He would have to be an infinite sacrifice. The injustice of all this pain and suffering on a being who did no sin would bring about an infinite injustice. God the Father would, as a just being, of a necessity need to recompense this being for the unjust pain and suffering that he would bare. He would also need to recompense him to the extent of all the pain and suffering he would bare. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and thus inherited the traits of mortal man but was also born of our Father in heaven and thus acquired superhuman traits from his Father. From his mother he acquired the trait of being able to lay down his life and suffer death. From his Father he was able to acquire the trait of being able to suffer to the extent of taking on the sins of all the world and also take up his life again. As His recompense, Jesus won the right to forgive the repentant sinner of his sins resurrect him to an immortal body of flesh and bones. Since suffered to the extent of the sins of all mankind, He was allowed to grant mercy upon all who would come unto him and repent and follow after Him. Would his mercy rob justice? NO!!! It was his just recompense for all the unjust suffering and pain and death that he suffered. It became a just act for all the injustice he bore. It did require that mankind forsake his sins and repent and follow the Christ but the rewards were that mankind again could return unto God and become a more perfect being full of joy and happiness. It was an infinite and eternal sacrifice to bring about the bowels of mercy that overpowers the demands of justice and allows mankind to again find immortality and eternal life and become more like their Father in heaven and Beloved Savior Jesus Christ. This is the doctrine of the atonement and purpose of the mission of Jesus Christ our Savior. It was required that God would be an all just God and an all merciful God also. It was the just for the unjust.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

It would have been unjust for God the Father to not recompense Jesus for all the injustice he suffered.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his Son? And why did he say Abraham's ONLY son? Ishmael was also a son of Abraham. Isaac wasn't even the first born. So, I'd like to see responses by Jews, Muslims and Christians on this.

Yeah, Issac was the first born. He was a miracle birth like Jesus. Ishmael was a bastard out of wedlock birth. His birth was the result of Abraham sin

 

[Woodznutz]

The atonement is a difficult doctrine for many to understand fully. I am not even sure that I myself fully understand it completely. But I will try to tell you how I understand it. The first thing that you must understand is that there is a part of man that is as eternal as God. That part of mankind is known as mankind's intelligence. The part of man that thinks and chooses and constitutes his/her mind was never created or made and nether indeed can be. It has always existed. These intelligences that have always existed are all perfect but are subject to the capacity to learn and increase in knowledge of intelligence. It is important to understand that God does not create things from nothing. That is an old wives tale. Intelligence and matter have always existed. They are eternal in nature. Creation is not the process of causing things to pop out of non-existence into existence but to organize matter and intelligence into organized things. The reason God does not create us as perfect beings like himself is because he creates us out of self-existing intelligence and matter that is not in a perfected state. These truths were revealed unto the Prophet Joseph Smith in the following Latter-day verses:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Here it is revealed that the intelligence of man is self-existent and cannot be created or made, not even by God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Here it is revealed that the elements are eternal in nature and also were not created or made. Matter come in two varieties, ie spirit matter and the more course matter that we can see in our life.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Before coming to this life, we were all born as the spirit offspring (children) of our Father and Mother in heaven. The process of spiritual birth combined our self-existent intelligence with self-existent matter to form our spirits. Through a similar process we were born into this world as mortal children of our earthly parents.

Because our intelligence is not perfect, God has provided a process known as mortal life for us to learn about good and evil and learn to overcome the evil and to choose the good. For a being to truly be a good being in and of himself/herself, they must learn to choose goodness of their own free will and choice. Thus they can progress and become more like God. This is why free will is critical to God's plan and also why we are not created as perfect beings. God could not create our intelligence but could only attempt to bring it along through our free will and choice to be better beings. Once you understand these things, you can better understand the purposes of God.

Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It is the purpose of God to give his spirit offspring the opportunity as self-existing intelligences with bodies to progress and become more perfect over time. Since God cannot simply create us to be perfect, He must try to bring this about by some other means. This mortal life is a part of how God seeks to bring about our progression towards perfection. God knows that we are imperfect beings from eternity past and that He could not simply create us to be perfect. He fully knows and understands that in our path to progression we are going to make mistakes and fall short of keeping God's law perfectly. According to God's law of justice, we all fall short and are not worthy of the kingdom of heaven. God knew we would all fall short but prepared a plan called "the plan of mercy" from the beginning. But God realized that mankind must change their disposition of desiring evil to a disposition of desiring to do good else if they were allowed into the kingdom of heaven, they would continue in sin and break the laws of his heavenly kingdom. Thus God understood that mankind, before gaining mercy would need to repent and experience a change of heart to do good instead of evil. Repentance would then need to be a requirement for gaining the mercy needed to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

God also realized that mercy cannot rob justice. It would need to be a just act to grant mercy unto those who break God's laws and commit sin. If we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none of us are justified in being allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is an unjust act to allow sinners into the kingdom of heaven. Mercy cannot rob justice. On our own merits were are unworthy of the kingdom of heaven. So how does God overcome this issue. He understood this problem from the beginning and came up with a solution The law of mercy would have to overpower the demands of justice. To do this, God would have to send down to this earth a being who would do no sin. This being would need to pay the price of sin for all mankind. This would require a being who was not only sinless but also have the capacity to undergo immense pain and suffering and be able to bear such an immense amount of suffering. He would have to be an infinite sacrifice. The injustice of all this pain and suffering on a being who did no sin would bring about an infinite injustice. God the Father would, as a just being, of a necessity need to recompense this being for the unjust pain and suffering that he would bare. He would also need to recompense him to the extent of all the pain and suffering he would bare. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and thus inherited the traits of mortal man but was also born of our Father in heaven and thus acquired superhuman traits from his Father. From his mother he acquired the trait of being able to lay down his life and suffer death. From his Father he was able to acquire the trait of being able to suffer to the extent of taking on the sins of all the world and also take up his life again. As His recompense, Jesus won the right to forgive the repentant sinner of his sins resurrect him to an immortal body of flesh and bones. Since suffered to the extent of the sins of all mankind, He was allowed to grant mercy upon all who would come unto him and repent and follow after Him. Would his mercy rob justice? NO!!! It was his just recompense for all the unjust suffering and pain and death that he suffered. It became a just act for all the injustice he bore. It did require that mankind forsake his sins and repent and follow the Christ but the rewards were that mankind again could return unto God and become a more perfect being full of joy and happiness. It was an infinite and eternal sacrifice to bring about the bowels of mercy that overpowers the demands of justice and allows mankind to again find immortality and eternal life and become more like their Father in heaven and Beloved Savior Jesus Christ. This is the doctrine of the atonement and purpose of the mission of Jesus Christ our Savior. It was required that God would be an all just God and an all merciful God also. It was the just for the unjust.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

It would have been unjust for God the Father to not recompense Jesus for all the injustice he suffered.

Christs' death is an atonement if one accepts it as such. Otherwise, he's just another dead guy nailed to a tree.

 

[onefour1]

Christs' death is an atonement if one accepts it as such. Otherwise, he's just another dead guy nailed to a tree.

Is this another way of saying that everyone has their own truth?

 

[Cougarbear]

That's like one seagull telling another seagull how handsome he is.

Jealous?

 

[ding]

Jealous?

No. An echo chamber.

 

[Cougarbear]

Yeah, Issac was the first born. He was a miracle birth like Jesus. Ishmael was a bastard out of wedlock birth. His birth was the result of Abraham sin

Nope! God, thru Sarah, told Abraham to take her handmaiden and became his second wife.
Polygamy was approved of then and in most of Biblical history until Paul was told not for bishops and priests.
So, Ishmael wasn’t a bastard. He was angry with Isaac and his father. So, God prepared a way for Sarah to have children in her old age.
The story of Isaac was a similitude of the only begotten of the Father in the flesh, Jesus Christ.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Nope! God, thru Sarah, told Abraham to take her handmaiden and became his second wife.
Polygamy was approved of then and in most of Biblical history until Paul was told not for bishops and priests.
So, Ishmael wasn’t a bastard. He was angry with Isaac and his father. So, God prepared a way for Sarah to have children in her old age.
The story of Isaac was a similitude of the only begotten of the Father in the flesh, Jesus Christ.

You're twisting scripture. Abraham, led by Sara, tried to fulfill God's promise in their own way. Bastard Ishmael was not rewarded as the first born.

Imagine if they actually TRUSTED God and waited. Thousands of years of violence could have been avoided if they only had FAITH in God's promise

 

[Carl in Michigan]

She was NEVER a "wife.". I don't know what false doctrine is taught by your church

Sarai said to Abram, “Behold now, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Go in to my servant; it may be that I shall obtain children1 by her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 So, after Abram chad lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife. 4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, dshe looked with contempt on her mistress.2 5 And Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done to me be on you! I gave my servant to your embrace, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May ethe Lord judge between you and me!” 6 But Abram said to Sarai, “Behold, your servant is in your power; do to her as you please.” Then Sarai dealt harshly with her, and she fled from her.

 

[Cougarbear]

You're twisting scripture. Abraham, led by Sara, tried to fulfill God's promise in their own way. Bastard Ishmael was not rewarded as the first born.

Imagine if they actually TRUSTED God and waited. Thousands of years of violence could have been avoided if they only had FAITH in God's promise

There’s no indication of what you are saying in those particular scriptures. You are insinuating something that isn’t there.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

There’s no indication of what you are saying in those particular scriptures. You are insinuating something that isn’t there.

I'm afraid that's you. I provided the scriptures. He never married Hagar. She was only Sara's servant.

If you believe otherwise provide the SCRIPTURES

 

[Woodznutz]

Is this another way of saying that everyone has their own truth?

Hard to prove personal truth, best just to render an opinion.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm afraid that's you. I provided the scriptures. He never married Hagar. She was only Sara's servant.

If you believe otherwise provide the SCRIPTURES

Abraham would not have been the Prophet if that age had he done anything wrong. You assume that they weren’t married. The absence of evidence isn’t the evidence of absence. We know Abraham was righteous above reproach. If not, he would not have been blessed the way he blessed Sarah. Then, Lot.