What was all the suffering of Jesus for?

[alang1216]

If the gospels existed for decades then the destruction of Judea was a fulfilled prophecy and the consequence for failing to heed the teaching and warnings of Jesus to the ruling elite about false roman security and the illusion of prosperity at the expense of setting aside their professed dedication and allegiance to God and truth and abandoning the majority of the flock to the enemy for slaughter.

The gospels did exist for decades, there is much evidence for that. I don't know what prophecy you speak of or what warnings Jesus taught.

 

[hobelim]

If the gospels existed for decades then the destruction of Judea was a fulfilled prophecy and the consequence for failing to heed the teaching and warnings of Jesus to the ruling elite about false roman security and the illusion of prosperity at the expense of setting aside their professed dedication and allegiance to God and truth and abandoning the majority of the flock to the enemy for slaughter.

The gospels did exist for decades, there is much evidence for that. I don't know what prophecy you speak of or what warnings Jesus taught.

Perhaps we should stop right here until you've had a chance to do your homework.........

 

[alang1216]

Perhaps we should stop right here until you've had a chance to do your homework.........

We can stop anytime you want but no amount of "homework" on my part will reveal your interpretation of scripture.

 

[onefour1]

Because God is obliged to uphold his laws and his rewards and punishments in his kingdom, he cannot simply ignore his law and grant forgiveness otherwise mercy would rob justice. Through the disobedience of the law man has fallen from the presence of God. According to justice, man has chosen to be disobedient to the laws in God's kingdom. God's laws are eternal in nature and for God to be a just God, he must uphold his laws and exact the punishment that is affixed to his law for those who sin against it. It would not be just for God to allow the sinner into the kingdom of heaven when the punishment for sin is not be allowed in God's presence.

Alma 11:36-37
36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

It is simply not a just thing to allow sinners into heaven. This would destroy the law and structure of God's kingdom. It is not according to law that man is saved, but according to mercy. But to simply allow the sinner into the presence of God would cause mercy to rob justice. Man has fallen short and is not worthy of the presence of God. So how can God make it so that he can grant mercy and not have it rob justice? His great plan of mercy was decided upon before the foundation of the world. It would overpower the demands of justice. But the mercy would be conditioned upon man's repentance. If we are to eventually gain entrance into God's kingdom, it would still be unjust to allow a sinner into heaven. Thus repentance of sin is an essential part of the Christ's atonement.

The atonement of Christ is an infinite and eternal sacrifice. In other words, Christ is a being who did no sin, and did only those things which God would have him do. He was loved by all eternity for he was their creator. He is loved by all the intelligences of the universe and highly respected. It would not be just for Christ to suffer for sin when he did no sin. But not only did Christ suffer but he suffered for the sins of all mankind.

2 Nephi 9:21
21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

Was it just that such a being suffer? Was it just that he suffer the pains of all men, women and children? No! It was a huge injustice! So I ask, should such a being receive a just recompense for the injustice that he bore? Should Christ not have received a recompense to the extent that he suffered? Would it be just for God not to recompense the Christ for this great injustice? It became a situation in which God the Father would need to justly recompense his Son for the evil that was brought upon him while on this earth. His recompense would be the right to grant mercy unto the repentant sinners and resurrection unto all men. Christ won the right to grant mercy unto fallen man on the conditions of repentance. The demands of justice by all the intelligences in the universe were appeased by the infinite and eternal sacrifice for all who truly repent. God would of a necessity need to recompense the Christ for the injustice in order to remain a just God. The recompense would need to have covered the extent of his sufferings which were the pains of all men women and children. God the Father was now under the law of justice to grant his Only Begotten Son a recompense that would cover the sufferings of all mankind. Thus it became an act of justice to allow Jesus to have mercy on all mankind if they would repent. Without repentance, man would be sinful in heaven and it would destroy the works of God and his laws of justice. But if the sinner truly repents then mercy had a just claim upon the fallen creature. This is the true reason that Christ had to suffer and die. It brought about the plan of mercy that would not rob justice or destroy the justice of God. Why would an infinite being who lived a perfect life lay down his life for all mankind? He did it because of his love for all mankind. He wanted all of us to have the opportunity to rise above sin and find eternal joy and happiness.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[onefour1]

Here is a scripture that speaks of and explains these things:

Alma 42:1-29
1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.

 

[hobelim]

Perhaps we should stop right here until you've had a chance to do your homework.........

We can stop anytime you want but no amount of "homework" on my part will reveal your interpretation of scripture.

You know the gospels were in existence decades before they were written down, but you don't know whats in them? You never heard about Jesus prediction of the destruction of Judea, the Temple and another diaspora? I find that hard to believe. You don't know what warnings Jesus taught about? seriously?

If you want to know my interpretation about a specific verse of scripture, just ask a specific question.

Please, don't act like you've just fallen off the turnip truck.

 

[alang1216]

You know the gospels were in existence decades before they were written down, but you don't know whats in them? You never heard about Jesus prediction of the destruction of Judea, the Temple and another diaspora? I find that hard to believe. You don't know what warnings Jesus taught about? seriously?

If you want to know my interpretation about a specific verse of scripture, just ask a specific question.

Please, don't act like you've just fallen off the turnip truck.

I know there are canonical and non-canonical scripture. I know there are orthodox and heretical sects and that each had their own set of scripture. I know there are pseudepigraphical texts and letters in scripture. I know that some early scriptures are now lost. I also know that very few words of Jesus have survived the millennia.

Based on my knowledge, such as it is, I really doubt Jesus predicted the destruction of Judea, the Temple and another diaspora. He believed the end times were imminent rendering the other predictions moot.

 

[hobelim]

You know the gospels were in existence decades before they were written down, but you don't know whats in them? You never heard about Jesus prediction of the destruction of Judea, the Temple and another diaspora? I find that hard to believe. You don't know what warnings Jesus taught about? seriously?

If you want to know my interpretation about a specific verse of scripture, just ask a specific question.

Please, don't act like you've just fallen off the turnip truck.

I know there are canonical and non-canonical scripture. I know there are orthodox and heretical sects and that each had their own set of scripture. I know there are pseudepigraphical texts and letters in scripture. I know that some early scriptures are now lost. I also know that very few words of Jesus have survived the millennia.

Based on my knowledge, such as it is, I really doubt Jesus predicted the destruction of Judea, the Temple and another diaspora. He believed the end times were imminent rendering the other predictions moot.

Have you read the contents of any of the scriptures that you know exist?


If you doubt that Jesus predicted the destruction of Judea why would you think that he believed that the end times were imminent?

The popular belief of the time was that the end times were imminent, the messiah was about to appear and destroy the roman oppressors with armies of angelic beings leading the faithful to victory. When Jesus said that they were a long time off, wars and rumors of wars, the siege of jerusalem and destruction of the temple, another diaspora, the gospels preached throughout the world etc, he was ridiculed.

you can doubt whether anything of what Jesus said survived all you like but if your previous conclusion was that the gospels predated their current written form by decades then the predictions of the gospels were accurate. If they were written after the fact then they were probably written in such a way that would deliberately confound the enemy. Both could be true.

How can you fail to see that for thousands of years those stories have confounded the nations of people who have never taken the time or gone through the trouble to understand Jewish thought, belief, and literary forms of expression?

 

[alang1216]

Have you read the contents of any of the scriptures that you know exist?

I've read and informally studied both the OT and the NT

If you doubt that Jesus predicted the destruction of Judea why would you think that he believed that the end times were imminent?

Why does anyone today believe such things? But they do. Maybe because everyone wants to be either the first or the last, they are the important ones.

The popular belief of the time was that the end times were imminent, the messiah was about to appear and destroy the roman oppressors with armies of angelic beings leading the faithful to victory. When Jesus said that they were a long time off, wars and rumors of wars, the siege of jerusalem and destruction of the temple, another diaspora, the gospels preached throughout the world etc, he was ridiculed.

My recollection is that Jesus believed end times were imminent, not that they were a long time off.

you can doubt whether anything of what Jesus said survived all you like but if your previous conclusion was that the gospels predated their current written form by decades then the predictions of the gospels were accurate. If they were written after the fact then they were probably written in such a way that would deliberately confound the enemy. Both could be true.

The gospels, like the Bible overall, is a collection of oral histories circulating at the time. Some were likely very old and some more recent. They were created and circulated to guide the faithful in their theology. Except for cryptic depictions of Nero in Revelations, they were not confounding any enemy.

How can you fail to see that for thousands of years those stories have confounded the nations of people who have never taken the time or gone through the trouble to understand Jewish thought, belief, and literary forms of expression?

The Bible is a written Rorschach test. It says whatever you want it to say. Do you think you are smarter or more knowledgeable than others? Even Jews don't agree on what the Bible says.

 

[onefour1]

God the eternal Father could not accomplish the atonement of himself because he is an exalted man. He has a body of flesh and bones that is immortal that cannot be separated from his spirit. Thus he is in a state where he cannot die. The atonement required the suffering and death of one to fulfill the requirement of the atonement. For this reason, God chose his Only Begotten Son to be the redeemer who had not yet gained a body. So when he came to this earth, Jesus was born of an immortal Father and a mortal mother. Without sinning, he could chose to not die or he could choose to die.

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

As a perfect and sinless being, Jesus was worthy as an infinite and eternal sacrifice. He layed down his life of his own free will. He did not die because the Jews and Rome forced it upon him but he died because he chose to lay his life down for our sake.

He was not worthy of death and thus he was able to take his life up again in the resurrection. And it is a gift he gives to us as part of his mercy. All mankind will resurrect and live an immortal existence, thanks to Jesus and his atonement.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:17
17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The atonement of Christ has brought a refreshing of the soul to those who repent of their sins. It has also brought the resurrection of all men, women and children who have died. Christ brings eternal hope for all of us who must face death at one time or another.

His great mercy covers all of us in the resurrection to immortality but also covers the repentant soul for gaining Eternal life. Eternal life is to have a life like God. Those who repent and follow after the true teachings of Jesus can become his sons and daughters. And if they remain faithful, they will become like God.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:9-22
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now that Christ has resurrected, He, like the Father, is immortal and can never die again.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[hobelim]

The gospels, like the Bible overall, is a collection of oral histories circulating at the time. Some were likely very old and some more recent. They were created and circulated to guide the faithful in their theology. Except for cryptic depictions of Nero in Revelations, they were not confounding any enemy.

They were not confounding any enemy? Seriously? Fantastical stories about a three in one edible mangod born of a virgin who performed divine demonstrations of supernatural power over reality until he was killed but then rose from the dead only to float up into the sky??

The stories are still confounding the enemy and anyone who fails to perceive the deeper implications whether they believe or don't believe...How many millions of people out there whether Jew or Gentile believe that the bible is the word of God to be taken and applied literally? How many millions of others whether Jew or Gentile don't believe yet show deference to believers false claim to moral authority allowing them, according to the most bizarre and irrational mental state possible outside of a straight jacket, to influence laws and customs, determine national policy, and wage war, even against their own populations??

The Bible is a written Rorschach test. It says whatever you want it to say. Do you think you are smarter or more knowledgeable than others? Even Jews don't agree on what the Bible says.

It may be like a written Rorschach test in many ways but every interpretation is not equal to or as valid as every other. And its not about being more knowledgable than others, its about honesty. Nothing that I am revealing is the product of my own intelligence. I am expressing in words what I have seen in the presence of God, that which God has revealed to me.

Only in this light can all people, whether Jew or Gentile, find validation for each respective faith or lack of faith and agreement with each other.

 

[alang1216]

They were not confounding any enemy? Seriously? Fantastical stories about a three in one edible mangod born of a virgin who performed divine demonstrations of supernatural power over reality until he was killed but then rose from the dead only to float up into the sky??

Fantastical stories to impress the pagans. Jesus had a core of followers among the Jews but his teachings didn't translate well to the pagan world. Those who preached to the pagans added the virgin birth and miracles to show the power of their god was greater than other gods. The big draw of course was this offering of eternal life, the core belief of Christianity and it's greatest enticement. Pagans endeavored to make this life better by invoking the aid of the gods. Christians preached that suffering in this world was acceptable since they were headed for eternal bliss. A powerful message that was slowly gaining acceptance in the pagan world. Until a Christian became emperor and suddenly it was also beneficial to be a Christian in this world as well as the next.

Nothing that I am revealing is the product of my own intelligence. I am expressing in words what I have seen in the presence of God, that which God has revealed to me.

Wow! I had no idea I was speaking to a prophet or bath ḳōl of God. You honor us.

 

[hobelim]

Fantastical stories to impress the pagans. Jesus had a core of followers among the Jews but his teachings didn't translate well to the pagan world. Those who preached to the pagans added the virgin birth and miracles to show the power of their god was greater than other gods. The big draw of course was this offering of eternal life, the core belief of Christianity and it's greatest enticement. Pagans endeavored to make this life better by invoking the aid of the gods. Christians preached that suffering in this world was acceptable since they were headed for eternal bliss. A powerful message that was slowly gaining acceptance in the pagan world. Until a Christian became emperor and suddenly it was also beneficial to be a Christian in this world as well as the next.

you won't survive for very long on a diet of eating fluffy puff balls of nothingness, but thats just my opinion... lol

Thinking deeply is not your thing. I get it..

Wow! I had no idea I was speaking to a prophet or bath ḳōl of God. You honor us.

lol, My my, grandpa, what big teeth you have!

 

[alang1216]

you won't survive for very long on a diet of eating fluffy puff balls of nothingness, but thats just my opinion... lol

Thinking deeply is not your thing. I get it.

I've already survived pretty long but I certainly admit that I lack your imagination.

 

[onefour1]

Because Jesus, who did no sin, suffered and died to the extent of all mankind's sins, he won the right to forgive sin as a recompense for his suffering. The injustice of the suffering and death that came upon this one innocent soul, even our creator, brought about the need for a recompense for the injustice. God in his infinite wisdom and justice found it a just thing to recompense the Christ for suffering and death. His recompense was the right to forgive the REPENTANT sinner. For without repentance, mercy would not be just and would destroy the works of God. With repentance, the act of his recompense (mercy) became just and merciful. Christ is now our advocate with the Father. He pleads our cause before God.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:3-5
3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

The suffering of Jesus was essential to make mercy a just cause before the Father. Without his suffering, mercy would only rob justice according to God's foundation of a just and equitable eternal law. But now it is a trade off of the JUST for the UNJUST as long as we repent of our sins. Christ's recompense being a just cause.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The just (the sinless Son of God and creator of all things) laid down his life in order to win to right to grant mercy unto the unjust (each and everyone of us who have fallen short of his glory) sinner and is prepared to forgive us if we but repent and come unto him and be encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.

2 Nephi 1:15
15 But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.

 

[Mudda]

Jesus suffered from extreme chafing of his ballsack while on the cross, that's why he didn't feel the nails.

 

[onefour1]

I'm sure Jesus felt all the pain of the nails as the weight of his body put tremendous pressure on the nails.

A view of Roman nails used in crucifixion:
Ancient Resource: Ancient Roman "Crucifixion Spikes" For Sale

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sin is a blood issue. It can only be removed by a pure blood transfusion. Christ lived as man, and still retained his pure blood. Then shed it for us, removing sin.
Christ came here to redeem the Jews. Until the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, they were in a state of perpetual forgiveness, no rules. The Jews asked for rules that they boasted they could keep. God gave them rules and knowing they could not keep them, gave them a temporary cover for them with animal blood. Christ came to give them a permanent covering for sin. Then He gave the same to us.

The problem with man just asking for forgiveness is that man doesn't even know what to ask forgiveness for.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jesus suffered from extreme chafing of his ballsack while on the cross, that's why he didn't feel the nails.

He was beaten all night long, whipped till His flesh was hanging off of His body. They grabbed handfuls of His beard, and ripped it and his flesh right off of his face. He was tortured so badly that it was difficult to tell that it was a human on that cross. And He most definitely felt the nails. And even with that, he used his last breaths to ask His Father to forgive us. That include you mocking Him.

 

[Mudda]

Jesus suffered from extreme chafing of his ballsack while on the cross, that's why he didn't feel the nails.

He was beaten all night long, whipped till His flesh was hanging off of His body. They grabbed handfuls of His beard, and ripped it and his flesh right off of his face. He was tortured so badly that it was difficult to tell that it was a human on that cross. And He most definitely felt the nails. And even with that, he used his last breaths to ask His Father to forgive us. That include you mocking Him.

I know, Jesus paid for my sins already, I can mock all I want...
Fucking AWESOME!
Thanks J-boy.