What should abortion laws be?

[JD_2B]

You are on my ignore list, pro- so you might as well stop jerking off every time I respond to someone. LMAO!! =)

 

[Bern80]

If people want women to stop killing themselves after having a baby, what needs to be done is to stop treating them as if they are sluts, whores, welfare bums, immoral hags, or as though the abuse that they were going through while in the relationship was somehow their own fucking fault.

Anyone will kill themselves if they are treated like shit. Being treated like shit can really help a depressive person to become more depressed, and commit suicide. Gee! What a revelation that is!!

Stop treating people like they are less valuable than someone who is happily married, just because they are not. People are legally allowed to give birth without being married. They are also entitled to justice when they start getting abused by their spouse during the pregnancy.

Stop treating people like they are worthless just because their pregnancy came at the worst possible time. Abortion is perfectly legal and worthwhile, if the situation at hand is deemed that dramatic by the woman as one that she cannot survive, along with an unexpected pregnancy.

Stop treating people like they don't deserve to live or should be sterilized, all because they gave birth and lost their position in their company during maternity leave. Legally, companies do not have to give a woman her same position in the company, or even the same level of pay, after she returns from maternity leave. They simply have to ensure that she HAS a position in the company.

Stop treating women who do not see fetuses as people as though they are morally bankrupt, or idiotic people. Fetuses are fetuses, and people are people. Legally.

Stop being ASSHOLES to women, and then sitting on a high horse, claiming to not be misogynistic PIGS. It is MEAN and abusive, and we will NOT be treated this way. We are women, HEAR US ROAR!!!!

Well I'm not roaring, but I agree with everything you said except what's in blue above. And if a woman honestly could not survive the pregnancy, that's a different story, but MILLIONS have been aborted under that clause which was 99.9 times not true.

I respect you JD. I totally disagree with you on those points, but I respect you. In fact a lot. Takes a brave woman to be as honest and transparent as you have been.

If only Obama had a fraction of that

You haven't read through much of this thread have you. No objective person reading this thread can charcterize her as honest.

 

[Bern80]

Cynical much?

you're none too bright

You don't know me from Adam and doubtless have not checked out my posts on other topics, yet you jump to this hasty, negative conclusion. None too bright, if you ask me or most anyone else, so, speak for yourself, dear, and keep the personal crap to yourself, unless of course, you're just out to impress people.

I would agree with that sentiment. It seems that most of us agree in moral principle but not in legal. That's what i don't understand. If you agree abortion is taking a life at some point, why the objection to making it a legal issue?

 

[blu]

the government should have 0 say on what people do to their own body

 

[GHook93]

the government should have 0 say on what people do to their own body

Should a person be allowed to walk into a school butt-naked?
Should a person be allowed to jerk-off in a public park?

The government should have and must have some say into what people can do with their bodies. However, that doesn't mean a person has no rights over his/her body. Abortion should be legal, but the more and more viable the fetus becomes (later into the pregnancy), the more consideration should be given to the fetus.

For the person that says women become extremely depresed by the guilt of aborting a baby, this may be true for some, but so do women (even to a larger extent) who give up the child for adoption. Women who have an unwanted baby also go through large amounts of depression.

 

[blu]

the government should have 0 say on what people do to their own body

Should a person be allowed to walk into a school butt-naked?
Should a person be allowed to jerk-off in a public park?

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?
does jerking off in public effect people besides the person doing it?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

the government should have 0 say on what people do to their own body

Should a person be allowed to walk into a school butt-naked?
Should a person be allowed to jerk-off in a public park?

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?
does jerking off in public effect people besides the person doing it?

You just destroyed your entire premise by proving GHook's point.

 

[blu]

Should a person be allowed to walk into a school butt-naked?
Should a person be allowed to jerk-off in a public park?

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?
does jerking off in public effect people besides the person doing it?

You just destroyed your entire premise by proving GHook's point.

i would like to see you show that

 

[☭proletarian☭]

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?
does jerking off in public effect people besides the person doing it?

You just destroyed your entire premise by proving GHook's point.

i would like to see you show that

Abortion harms another.

Another organism is not your body.


By definition.


So your position fails by your own criteria.

 

[blu]

You just destroyed your entire premise by proving GHook's point.

i would like to see you show that

Abortion harms another.

Another organism is not your body.


By definition.


So your position fails by your own criteria.

lol... appealing to fetus is a person etc

 

[☭proletarian☭]

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?

Now man up, be honest for once in your life, and admit that your position is fallacious per your own criterion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I am beginning to understand whom it is that is emotionally bankrupt here..

Illiterate, too.

PS- I saw what proletarian wrote, in your quote, and I just GOTTA say it.. Women are not the sexual gatekeepers.

That's the difference between you and me. I think women can and should be able to decide for themselves whom to have sex with. I view women as equals with their own wills and minds. Obviously, you don't.

I repeat,

YOU ARE NOT A FEMINIST. FEMINISM WAS ABOUT EQUALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN. THE FIRST AND SECOND-WAVE FEMINISTS WHO FOUGHT FOR SUFFRAGE AND EQUALITY IN THE WORKPLACE HAVE LONG STOOD IN OPPOSITION TO FAR LEFT SEXIST FEMINAZI SCUM LIKE YOU, BECAUSE YOU UNDERMINE THE VERY PRINCIPLES UPON WHICH TRUE FEMINISM WAS FOUNDED. ...

Now grow the fuck up, little girl, and show some personal responsibility- you know, like you want the poor drunk bastard who nailed your ass when you're begging for that child support check to do.

. All pregnancies require not just an EGG but a SPERM as well. Biology fucking 101 for ya.

Biology 101? You mean you getting pregnant by a dog in mexico.

Not all pregnancies require sperm, btw, but grasping that'd require an understanding of advanced biology.

And yet somehow, she thinks it's not HER job to be the "gatekeeper" and keep the sperm out of her body. I'd still like to know who she thinks should be in charge of the Border Patrol for her particular "illegal immigrant" problem.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If people want women to stop killing themselves after having a baby, what needs to be done is to stop treating them as if they are sluts, whores, welfare bums, immoral hags, or as though the abuse that they were going through while in the relationship was somehow their own fucking fault.

Anyone will kill themselves if they are treated like shit. Being treated like shit can really help a depressive person to become more depressed, and commit suicide. Gee! What a revelation that is!!

Stop treating people like they are less valuable than someone who is happily married, just because they are not. People are legally allowed to give birth without being married. They are also entitled to justice when they start getting abused by their spouse during the pregnancy.

Stop treating people like they are worthless just because their pregnancy came at the worst possible time. Abortion is perfectly legal and worthwhile, if the situation at hand is deemed that dramatic by the woman as one that she cannot survive, along with an unexpected pregnancy.

Stop treating people like they don't deserve to live or should be sterilized, all because they gave birth and lost their position in their company during maternity leave. Legally, companies do not have to give a woman her same position in the company, or even the same level of pay, after she returns from maternity leave. They simply have to ensure that she HAS a position in the company.

Stop treating women who do not see fetuses as people as though they are morally bankrupt, or idiotic people. Fetuses are fetuses, and people are people. Legally.

Stop being ASSHOLES to women, and then sitting on a high horse, claiming to not be misogynistic PIGS. It is MEAN and abusive, and we will NOT be treated this way. We are women, HEAR US ROAR!!!!

Well I'm not roaring, but I agree with everything you said except what's in blue above. And if a woman honestly could not survive the pregnancy, that's a different story, but MILLIONS have been aborted under that clause which was 99.9 times not true.

I respect you JD. I totally disagree with you on those points, but I respect you. In fact a lot. Takes a brave woman to be as honest and transparent as you have been.

If only Obama had a fraction of that

You haven't read through much of this thread have you. No objective person reading this thread can charcterize her as honest.

Or respectable.

 

[Cecilie1200]

the government should have 0 say on what people do to their own body

Should a person be allowed to walk into a school butt-naked?
Should a person be allowed to jerk-off in a public park?

does going to school naked effect someone/something besides the person who owns the body?
does jerking off in public effect people besides the person doing it?

Does killing an unborn baby affect someone other than the person who's doing the killing?

 

[Cecilie1200]

i would like to see you show that

Abortion harms another.

Another organism is not your body.


By definition.


So your position fails by your own criteria.

lol... appealing to fetus is a person etc

Sweetie, we just spent 70-some odd pages proving beyond reasonable doubt that a fetus is a living human being. You don't get to just waltz in here at page 72-3 and pretend it never happened, and your whole "Not a person" song and dance is nothing but warmed-over rationalizing bullshit. Go peddle that smokescreen to someone who can't pass 7th-grade science class. I think JD's in the market for a new braindead sycophant.

 

[Bern80]

i would like to see you show that

Abortion harms another.

Another organism is not your body.


By definition.


So your position fails by your own criteria.

lol... appealing to fetus is a person etc

Do we really need to stick the definition of person up here for the upteenth time? i guess so.

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: \ˈpər-sən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosōpa, plural of prosōpon face, mask — more at prosopopoeia
Date: 13th century

1 : human, individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : guise
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : self
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

Let's look at these various definitions one by one and see if fetus meets any of the criteria.

1) Most definately (though this one horribly confused JD)

2)No, but then again a lot born individuals would be ruled out as well as it dependent on a specific context

3)Debateable depending on your relgious beliefs

4) Definately again

5)Again debateable. Does a fetus at some point have a concept of self? Heck, does an infant really have a concept of self?

6)Believe it or not case law indicates that the unborn indeed do have rights. Legal Status of the Unborn And before you make the lame excuse that JD does and attack the site rather than critically examining what is written, just please read what is written

7)A fetus could again be considered a person under this context.

This should be incontravertible proof that an unborn child indeed is a person. The only two definition that don't pass any muster at all are the religious one and the context of guise. But again both are context sensative and would require elimination of many many more than just the unborn if they were sole definition of personhood. The likes of you and JD believe you have this justification based on fact when it comes to personhood and justifying abortion as a result. But you just plain don't. You need to come up with a different rationale as to why the unborn should not be afforded legal protection against late term abortion for convenience because saying it's okay because they aren't persons simply is untrue.

 

[bobbcat]

If you agree abortion is taking a life at some point, why the objection to making it a legal issue?

I don't think outlawing it would do any appreciable good. Besides, outlawing it would unnecessarily snag those women who seek the procedure for legitimate reasons. Again, there are ways to fight the use of this procedure as a means of birth control through education and support of the women and through the stigmatization of physicians who are willing to perform the procedure as a means of birth control. Frankly, I don't know how such docs live with themselves. I certainly would never work for one or be a patient of one.

 

[JD_2B]

What do you mean by "as a form of birth control"? Do you mean doctors who perform abortions as elective procedures? Just curious, there.

 

[AllieBaba]

Of course it's an elective procedure, if it's done in an abortion clinic. Remember, it's all about choice.

 

[Bern80]

If you agree abortion is taking a life at some point, why the objection to making it a legal issue?

I don't think outlawing it would do any appreciable good. Besides, outlawing it would unnecessarily snag those women who seek the procedure for legitimate reasons. Again, there are ways to fight the use of this procedure as a means of birth control through education and support of the women and through the stigmatization of physicians who are willing to perform the procedure as a means of birth control. Frankly, I don't know how such docs live with themselves. I certainly would never work for one or be a patient of one.

So if those objections could be cleared up would you then be willing to consider making it illegal?

How about the law as a deterent. To deter behavior is not the only reason we have laws outlawing certain behavior. Apparently the law doesn't stop people from murdering other people. As that much of a reason to make murder legal? Of course not. Because to deter behavior is not the only reason we have laws against certain behavior. The simple fact that justice must be served would be one.

As to who the law would effect, you make the law whatever you need it to be. I don't have the details worked out in my head, but my idea would be something along the lines of no abortion after x weeks of pregnancy for non medically necessary reasons. I wouldn't prosecute people for accidental miscarriages and I'm not naive as to how this would look in reality. Just like any other law it may get broken and people may not get caught. Maybe some mother's would induce miscarriages in some way. Those might never get reported. Or accidental miscarriages won't get reported and maybe they shouldn't be. But none of those reasons imo are good enough reasons to avoid seeking justice for someone.