What is Libertarian?

[gogogogo]

s h i t I cant post my fav pic

 

[FA_Q2]

I object to your appropriating the word FREE. Since you don't want a completely unregulated market, we're both whores, just dickering over the price!

Not at all. I understand that anarchy, far from being free, is extremely oppressive. That is the purpose of forming a government. To protect our rights.

I would submit that government's don't protect our rights so much as they DEFINE what those rights will be.

To protect our rights would imply that those rights exist outside of the societies in which we exist.

Philosophically one might be able to make that case if one could prove the existence of a higher authority than man, but thus far no such evidence is available to us.

We do not have in (or UN)alienable rights.

We would LIKE to have them, of course, but look around you.

Do you see anything at all that you have that cannot be taken away from you?

Life and liberty are NOT inalienable, they are obviously easily taken from you.

It is sad to see how far we have fallen and it reads to how the left can rationalize killing freedom. The very basis of our government is that there are unalienable rights that you and all people have. It is the job of the government to protect those rights. You may believe that we do not have such rights but to say so flies in the face of the document our government is based on. Your view, that rights are defined by government instead of the reason for government, means that you really have no rights whatsoever. At any time, the government can come in and redefine your rights to mean something else entirely. That is a dangerous and idiotic place to stand. I believe in my rights and I believe in defending those rights from all incursions to include the government.

BTW - nice deflection. I noticed you dropped the earlier point.

 

[Foxfyre]

I disagree that the Tea Partiers are in any way opposed to libertarianism (little 'L'). Libertarians have been flocking to the Tea Party rallies in noticable numbers and are backing Tea Party candidates as much as any other demographic.

Yeah. I'd like to see an exhaustive survey on the matter. You may be right. But most the Tea Partiers I talk to only like libertarian ideas in isolated circumstances. And the libertarians I know are more and more prone to distance themselves from the Tea Party which looks more and more like warmed over Bush voters.

The GOP has been more 'liberal light' than conservative which is why we have a Tea Party movement. And because the Tea Party movement is so visible and vocal and has proved its power to effect outcomes in elections, many if not most GOP candidates are falling all over themselves to appear more attractive to Tea Partiers and win their endorsement.

Appearances don't really count for much in the end. It's how they vote and how they govern that matters, and on that we have only their records to go by. People like Bachman and Perry simply can't back up any claim to libertarian convictions.

The Tea Party is not a political party but draws from Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians and every other sub group--anybody who is sick of big, out-of-control, irresponsible, ineffective, and incompetent authoritarian government and who wants to return to the principles of freedom, self governance, and fiscal responsibility.

I'd love to believe this. And I hope I turn out to be wrong, but the Tea Party movement looks to me a like a handy way to keep libertarian minded voters signed up as Republicans - with no real intent to address their concerns.

First, it again depends on how you define libertarian. If you mean the Libertarian Party, that is a different animal than libertarians who are classical liberals aka modern American conservatives. However, even there, if you read over the most recently published Platform of the Libertarian Party, I can't see a single thing that any Tea Partier I know is opposed to.
Platform | Libertarian Party

Tea Partiers aren't even debating any of the social issues though. For myself, I would want local communities to be able to organize any way they chose to do so and if that meant no abortion clinics, no nudie bars, no drive up liquor windows, no adult bookstores inside the city limits, etc., and a creche on the courthouse lawn at Christmas, they should be able to have whatever sort of community in which they wish to live. They should not be able to discriminate on the basis of race or ethnicity or other such factors, however, as that would be a violation of unalienable rights.

I have no idea whether many other Tea Partiers share my views about this because Tea Partiers aren't getting involved in social issue right now. They are looking for somebody to lead, to restore fiscal sanity, to secure our borders, and implement a tax and regulation policy that will allow the economy to start moving again.

And I have NEVER heard any Tea Partier anywhere over four states even ask, much less care what a person's party affiliation was.

 

[Zona]

What is Libertarian?

He is a nut who wants us to be back in the 50's. He is a nut who says fema should not exist and we should rely on neighbors to build our homes up after disasters hit. He is a nut who says businesses should be allow to have signs that say "no blacks allowed". He is Ron Paul. A fucking nut.

 

[flacaltenn]

FA_Q2 asks

How can you say that and then disagree with the last 2 statements. If we do not have too many regulations AND those regulations are not killing business then why do we need to rework the system.

Let us stop speaking in vague generalities and start being specific, shall we?

What regulations do you think are killing businesses?

Be specific.

I might agree with you and not even know it because you have not explained your specific complaints.

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

 

[ColonialMarine]

In other words you have no idea and since they are neither Republican nor Democrat you assume we are "moderate."

Your tiny world can conceive of only Republicans and Democrats. And they are in the end the same. It's actually pretty funny.

I'm a Marine SSgt. I deal only in absolutes. Someone is either a friendly or an enemy, a liberal or a conservative. There's black and there's white. Shades of gray like Libertarian are a misnomer to me.

 

[kaz]

In other words you have no idea and since they are neither Republican nor Democrat you assume we are "moderate."

Your tiny world can conceive of only Republicans and Democrats. And they are in the end the same. It's actually pretty funny.

I'm a Marine SSgt. I deal only in absolutes. Someone is either a friendly or an enemy, a liberal or a conservative. There's black and there's white. Shades of gray like Libertarian are a misnomer to me.

Libertarians are fiscally conservative like the right...except we mean it.

Libertarians are socially liberal like the left...except we mean it.

We are consistently against government intervention in our lives. We are black and white. If government isn't the only option, like for national defense and roads, government shouldn't do it. The parties are not only grey but you have to split hairs to find a difference.

You're misguided here. You hate grey, you should be one of us. If you're a Republican or a Democrat, grey is your life.

 

[Kevinthedog]

FA_Q2 asks

How can you say that and then disagree with the last 2 statements. If we do not have too many regulations AND those regulations are not killing business then why do we need to rework the system.

Let us stop speaking in vague generalities and start being specific, shall we?

What regulations do you think are killing businesses?

Be specific.

I might agree with you and not even know it because you have not explained your specific complaints.

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

 

[dblack]

First, it again depends on how you define libertarian. If you mean the Libertarian Party, that is a different animal than libertarians who are classical liberals aka modern American conservatives. ...

Right. I guess that's what I'm doubting. You'd have to go back to Barry Goldwater to find a 'modern conservative' who fits that bill. And he lost. My experience of modern conservatives is that they are just as corporatist and authoritarian as their 'modern liberal' counterparts. People like Ron Paul are fighting to change this, and I agree many Tea Partiers are working toward the same goal. But many aren't and seem eager to move away from real libertarians like Paul or Gary Johnson.

Regardless of how you're estimate of the current balance, do you think the Tea Party movement is becoming more, or less, libertarian?

 

[flacaltenn]

I object to your appropriating the word FREE. Since you don't want a completely unregulated market, we're both whores, just dickering over the price!

Not at all. I understand that anarchy, far from being free, is extremely oppressive. That is the purpose of forming a government. To protect our rights.

I would submit that government's don't protect our rights so much as they DEFINE what those rights will be.

To protect our rights would imply that those rights exist outside of the societies in which we exist.

Philosophically one might be able to make that case if one could prove the existence of a higher authority than man, but thus far no such evidence is available to us.

We do not have in (or UN)alienable rights.

We would LIKE to have them, of course, but look around you.

Do you see anything at all that you have that cannot be taken away from you?

Life and liberty are NOT inalienable, they are obviously easily taken from you.

Well there is where exactly where you miss the point of our Founding Documents evoking a power HIGHER than man-made law..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.....

When you're sitting a concentration camp, or standing before a govt inquistion -- where do you claim your rights???

Libertarians won't all agree on Natural Rights -- but they certainly recognize with humility that Governments are NOT the source of rights. MLK knew that. Spiritual invocations are part and parcel of EVERY civil rights struggle. All we do when institute Govt is to define the scope of THEIR powers. Or have you forgotten???

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

That my friend is VERY Libertarian. But it would take evidence of force and coercion on the part of govt for us to reach that conclusion.. Think we got a case??

 

[Kevinthedog]

First, it again depends on how you define libertarian. If you mean the Libertarian Party, that is a different animal than libertarians who are classical liberals aka modern American conservatives. ...

Right. I guess that's what I'm doubting. You'd have to go back to Barry Goldwater to find a 'modern conservative' who fits that bill. And he lost. My experience of modern conservatives is that they are just as corporatist and authoritarian as their 'modern liberal' counterparts. People like Ron Paul are fighting to change this, and I agree many Tea Partiers are working toward the same goal. But many aren't and seem eager to move away from real libertarians like Paul or Gary Johnson.

Regardless of how you're estimate of the current balance, do you think the Tea Party movement is becoming more, or less, libertarian?

no, they are retread neo cons in sheeps clothing. just another moniker for repubs, same folks.

 

[Foxfyre]

First, it again depends on how you define libertarian. If you mean the Libertarian Party, that is a different animal than libertarians who are classical liberals aka modern American conservatives. ...

Right. I guess that's what I'm doubting. You'd have to go back to Barry Goldwater to find a 'modern conservative' who fits that bill. And he lost. My experience of modern conservatives is that they are just as corporatist and authoritarian as their 'modern liberal' counterparts. People like Ron Paul are fighting to change this, and I agree many Tea Partiers are working toward the same goal. But many aren't and seem eager to move away from real libertarians like Paul or Gary Johnson.

Regardless of how you're estimate of the current balance, do you think the Tea Party movement is becoming more, or less, libertarian?

The Tea Party started out and has remained libertarian (little 'L') as I have defined it. It may not get involved in every part of my definition but it doesn't contradict any of it either. And I'm pretty sure my definition of "Modern American Conservative" aka Classical Liberal is pretty different from your definition of Conservative.

 

[flacaltenn]

FA_Q2 asks



Let us stop speaking in vague generalities and start being specific, shall we?

What regulations do you think are killing businesses?

Be specific.

I might agree with you and not even know it because you have not explained your specific complaints.

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

So screwing 1000 of small biznesses is Okee-Dokee because "it's not part of your life"..

Now that's not selfish or purposely insensitive is it? Whatever YOU are -- is part of the problem with our rights and liberties slipping away...

 

[Wicked Jester]

FA_Q2 asks



Let us stop speaking in vague generalities and start being specific, shall we?

What regulations do you think are killing businesses?

Be specific.

I might agree with you and not even know it because you have not explained your specific complaints.

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

You're not exactly the brightest light on the ol' Xmas tree o' life, eh?

Obviously.

 

[Kevinthedog]

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

You're not exactly the brightest light on the ol' Xmas tree o' life, eh?

Obviously.

Oh, Gosh. You dont respect me! I am so so sad now! I mean, sad...real sad. Your opinion about what you felt about me meant so much. What am I gonna do now? etc.....

 

[Kevinthedog]

How about a single Govt regulation that threatens to WIPE OUT the entire American homemade crafts for kids industry? A regulation that applies to small biz making wooden toys or bibs or kids reading material while EXEMPTING MATTEL from the same regs?

Go comment in the "Congress" forum (Explaining Regulation to the NPR Crowd) about how the CPSIA is entirely sane and justified, whilst your local library purges the entire section of children's books that MIGHT contain phalates, lead or other listed substances..

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

So screwing 1000 of small biznesses is Okee-Dokee because "it's not part of your life"..

Now that's not selfish or purposely insensitive is it? Whatever YOU are -- is part of the problem with our rights and liberties slipping away...

hey! you could always....BAIL THEM OUT! ahahahahahahaah!!!!!!!

No, I DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT feel sorry for those who take a chance in the world of capitalism, especially they whine and expect the g'ment to support them! ESPECIALLY, and I REPEAT, ESPECIALLY when they make bullshit items and really contribute nothing to this world. McDonalds can fail all day, go under, and I DONT GIVE a gosh darn. and that is TRUE conservative and libertarian ideas there!

 

[Wicked Jester]

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

You're not exactly the brightest light on the ol' Xmas tree o' life, eh?

Obviously.

Oh, Gosh. You dont respect me! I am so so sad now! I mean, sad...real sad. Your opinion about what you felt about me meant so much. What am I gonna do now? etc.....

Like I said, you don't seem to be very bright, judging from the myriad of posts we've seen from you...........I expect we'll see you fade away from here, sooner rather then later.

 

[Bern80]

In other words you have no idea and since they are neither Republican nor Democrat you assume we are "moderate."

Your tiny world can conceive of only Republicans and Democrats. And they are in the end the same. It's actually pretty funny.

I'm a Marine SSgt. I deal only in absolutes. Someone is either a friendly or an enemy, a liberal or a conservative. There's black and there's white. Shades of gray like Libertarian are a misnomer to me.

Republican and Democrat are just labels. What absolutes specifically do you think they represent?

 

[Wicked Jester]

I am glad I need to base my life on a company that makes kids toys! gotta love capitalism.

next.....support McDonalds..a place you never eat at and makes crappy lousy food! But it's capitalism and we gotta support everyone and everything involved in it, even if it's a useless and worthless product!

So screwing 1000 of small biznesses is Okee-Dokee because "it's not part of your life"..

Now that's not selfish or purposely insensitive is it? Whatever YOU are -- is part of the problem with our rights and liberties slipping away...

hey! you could always....BAIL THEM OUT! ahahahahahahaah!!!!!!!

No, I DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT feel sorry for those who take a chance in the world of capitalism, especially they whine and expect the g'ment to support them! ESPECIALLY, and I REPEAT, ESPECIALLY when they make bullshit items and really contribute nothing to this world. McDonalds can fail all day, go under, and I DONT GIVE a gosh darn. and that is TRUE conservative and libertarian ideas there!

McDonalds doesn't contribute anything?

You truly are stupid?

 

[ColonialMarine]

In other words you have no idea and since they are neither Republican nor Democrat you assume we are "moderate."

Your tiny world can conceive of only Republicans and Democrats. And they are in the end the same. It's actually pretty funny.

I'm a Marine SSgt. I deal only in absolutes. Someone is either a friendly or an enemy, a liberal or a conservative. There's black and there's white. Shades of gray like Libertarian are a misnomer to me.

Republican and Democrat are just labels. What absolutes specifically do you think they represent?

Republicans are supposed to be fiscal consevatives. However I'll admit that for the last 10 years or so they haven't been. That's why I'm now a member of the Tea Party.