What if neither party can bring the jobs back?

Londoner

Gold Member
Jul 17, 2010
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What if the era of American economic dominance is over? What if our rise was merely a wonderful historical anomaly that is now coming to and end?

Think about it. After WWII, both Europe and Japan were in a shambles. China was an isolated appendage of communism; India was still developing; and places like Vietnam and Taiwan had not been incorporated into the global market system (which system had yet to blossom).

Meaning: more money was coming in - a lot more. This enabled us to grow a large middle class of consumers who enjoyed rising living standards with each successive gerneration.

Energy was dirt cheap. Compare the price per gallon in 1950 to 2012. This meant that everything was cheaper to produce.

Those days are over. We are no longer manufacturer to the world, and cheap energy is gone. We are the most spread-out, auto-dependent nation on earth at the dawn of expensive energy. History no longer favors the energy-sucking suburban model. Why can't we take measure of the large storm collecting around our future?

But it's not just an over-reliance on a defunct energy model - it's a much broader entropy. Germany, India, and Asia are now out-producing us. We no longer make anything. We just borrow money from China and hand it out as credit so that jobless Americans can buy shiny plastic objects made somewhere else.

History replaced Roman and British Empires. Why are we so naive as to believe that we are not part of history? Nothing lasts forever. Nations rise and fall. Why can't we be adults and accept our limitations? Why do we have to blow sunshine up our own asses? - clutching after past greatness like an insecure actress who cannot face-up to her wrinkles. Why can't we grow old gracefully and accept our diminished role? Why do we act like an unstable global hegemon, dropping bombs on petty tyrants in order to prove our strength?

Why can't we accept that the jobs and prosperity may not be coming back? Why do we keep promising the sheeple that everything will be ok? Why can't our politicians just treat us like adults and ask us to live within our means? Why can't they be honest and say that our children will have fewer opportunities, as they become paralyzed by the 30yr spending orgy we have just completed. It's time to prepare for a fundamentally different world, rather than cling to a mythological future based on past greatness. The coming generations will have to live with less. Period. Accept it and learn to take pleasure in simpler things, like family and god.

Why can't we face the truth? Even if jobs did come back, they would be low paying jobs because free market capitalism thrives on cheap labor. That is, we are not going to see the compensation model we had during the postwar years where the father's factory wage supported the entire family so that the mom could stay at home and raise the kids. [Don't you people get it: the postwar era (when government supported unions, high wages, & affordable college) was also the heyday of conservatism. High wages and generous social programs gave hard working parents more time to raise the children. The conservative notion of the nuclear family came from New Deal America, when the working class had artificially high wages. This is why the 50s was such a glorious decade - because capitalism had yet to lower the wages/benefits/entitlements of the working class to a level that made it impossible to support a family]

So yes, the good jobs are gone. And if manufacturing jobs do come back, they will be the sort seen in Asia and the 3rd world - ultra cheap wages with zero benefits, i.e., not like 50s union wages where the father could support the family so that the mother could stay at home and raise the kids. The new low wage model brings the highest profits to shareholders, and this is the model our political system chose when we freed-up our corporations to seek the cheapest labor markets overseas. Free Market Capitalism does not support a thriving middle class of high-wage-workers. It supports ultra wealthy owners and poor workers. The Free Market drive for low wages destroyed the Great America Conservative Family by forcing the Mother into the workforce, and forcing the father to work more for less - so he had less time to help raise his children. Because of this, children are raised by MTV, Hollywood, and gangs . . . (but at least the capitalist makes more because he enjoys ultra cheap labor).

Folks, the old postwar America where everyone had high paying jobs and great benefits is gone for good. The owners of business no longer want to support a well paid population. They want cheap labor - plain and simple. The old America is gone.

Why do we keep blaming our political parties for a problem that neither can solve? Each successive administration promises prosperity, but each fails because they refuse to admit a simple truth: the old wage and benefit structure of "managed capitalism" has been replaced by the low wages of free market global capitalism. Our politicians can't change structures this big and powerful. If Washington can't run a laundromat, they certainly cannot figure out a way to change the tectonic economic forces that sweep whole civilizations into the dustbin of history.

Why do we have so much faith that the next administration will solve everything? Where did we get this faith in government? Why did the Left buy into Obama's hope and change garbage? Why does each party's voters buy into this garbage?

What if the ride is over? Why can't we admit we had a good run and adjust to the coming mass poverty? Why do we believe that Dear Leader can fix a crisis that is well beyond the power of Washington? Sometimes history does what it wants, and sometimes you just have to man-up and accept it.

Maybe Gingrich is not the messiah any more than Obama was. Yes, I know he and Mitt promise to make government smaller so that business can re-grow our prosperity - but what if the problem is deeper? What if all this empty rhetoric about freedom and small government overlooks the reality that high wages are not coming back? Why are we so seduced by simple bumper stickers?

Why does the Right and Left have so much faith in their respective models... and the politicians who peddle them?

What say you?
 
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If the best days are behind us and neither party can bring us back, it's time to evaluate our country for what we bring to the table and how we have to change to be competitive again.

Just like an addict reaching and hitting bottom, they will rise out of the dust after a time of rectification. We may just have to do that. Our wages may have to be lower, the spending sprees done, and we will have to sacrifice and set forth our American determination.

I think we could do that.
 
Politicians, governments have not created jobs. They've hired people to keep track of what's owed to the rulers. In better times, they provide projects that may help to create an infrastructure that may lead to a better economy, but they do not create those industries that may or may not come about.
 
Government cannot create jobs...and political parties sure as hell don't. Jobs will return when government and it's crony partners like the Fed get the fuck out of the way. Plenty of us are ready to invest in businesses that would require new US workers of all sorts but until we have some idea that big brother isn't waiting just around the corner to throw up obstacles and punish success, we're going to keep that money on the sideline or in well established companies making profit over growth. Sorry, but I'm not risking my capital in today's political/fiscal environment in big job-creating investments. In fact, just the opposite. You are of course free to invest your own money anyway you like.
 
The Left buys into Hope and Change bullshit, and the Right buys into small government bullshit. What if it's all bullshit? What if the ride is genuinely over and we are destined to have "change" elections every 4 years, hoping that the next president can save us?

What if the joke is on us?
 
The Left buys into Hope and Change bullshit, and the Right buys into small government bullshit. What if it's all bullshit? What if the ride is genuinely over and we are destined to have "change" elections every 4 years, hoping that the next president can save us?

What if the joke is on us?

Well me might have a do over of 1776 in some form.
 
If the best days are behind us and neither party can bring us back, it's time to evaluate our country for what we bring to the table and how we have to change to be competitive again.

Just like an addict reaching and hitting bottom, they will rise out of the dust after a time of rectification. We may just have to do that. Our wages may have to be lower, the spending sprees done, and we will have to sacrifice and set forth our American determination.

I think we could do that.

Unless you are a billionaire "job creator", for them sacrifice is an alien concept.
 
Government cannot create jobs...and political parties sure as hell don't. Jobs will return when government and it's crony partners like the Fed get the fuck out of the way. Plenty of us are ready to invest in businesses that would require new US workers of all sorts but until we have some idea that big brother isn't waiting just around the corner to throw up obstacles and punish success, we're going to keep that money on the sideline or in well established companies making profit over growth. Sorry, but I'm not risking my capital in today's political/fiscal environment in big job-creating investments. In fact, just the opposite. You are of course free to invest your own money anyway you like.

Punish success? Taxes haven't this good for Corporate America or the investors in modern history. And look at who's gaining most of the National Income, those who have been punished by success?
The OP is right and America must adjust! In order for the US to compete we have to invest in education to meet the completion head. Our completion is investing in education of their youth which is the opposite of the trend in the US. As John Huntsman has said, in order to compete in the new world, we have to focus on the economy and education. While we become less educated out rivals are becoming more educated. I guess that explains why they are gaining on us and set to surpass the US.
Our government should stop the politics and get on with making the US more competitive which should enhance most people's lives.
 
What if the era of American economic dominance is over? What if our rise was merely a wonderful historical anomaly that is now coming to and end?

Think about it. After WWII, both Europe and Japan were in a shambles. China was an isolated appendage of communism; India was still developing; and places like Vietnam and Taiwan had not been incorporated into the global market system (which system had yet to blossom).

Meaning: more money was coming in - a lot more. This enabled us to grow a large middle class of consumers who enjoyed rising living standards with each successive gerneration.

Energy was dirt cheap. Compare the price per gallon in 1950 to 2012. This meant that everything was cheaper to produce.

Those days are over. We are no longer manufacturer to the world, and cheap energy is gone. We are the most spread-out, auto-dependent nation on earth at the dawn of expensive energy. History no longer favors the energy-sucking suburban model. Why can't we take measure of the large storm collecting around our future?

But it's not just an over-reliance on a defunct energy model - it's a much broader entropy. Germany, India, and Asia are now out-producing us. We no longer make anything. We just borrow money from China and hand it out as credit so that jobless Americans can buy shiny plastic objects made somewhere else.

History replaced Roman and British Empires. Why are we so naive as to believe that we are not part of history? Nothing lasts forever. Nations rise and fall. Why can't we be adults and accept our limitations? Why do we have to blow sunshine up our own asses? - clutching after past greatness like an insecure actress who cannot face-up to her wrinkles. Why can't we grow old gracefully and accept our diminished role? Why do we act like an unstable global hegemon, dropping bombs on petty tyrants in order to prove our strength?

Why can't we accept that the jobs and prosperity may not be coming back? Why do we keep promising the sheeple that everything will be ok? Why can't our politicians just treat us like adults and ask us to live within our means? Why can't they be honest and say that our children will have fewer opportunities, as they become paralyzed by the 30yr spending orgy we have just completed. It's time to prepare for a fundamentally different world, rather than cling to a mythological future based on past greatness. The coming generations will have to live with less. Period. Accept it and learn to take pleasure in simpler things, like family and god.

Why can't we face the truth? Even if jobs did come back, they would be low paying jobs because free market capitalism thrives on cheap labor. That is, we are not going to see the compensation model we had during the postwar years where the father's factory wage supported the entire family so that the mom could stay at home and raise the kids. [Don't you people get it: the New Deal era when government supported unions, high wages, affordable college costs (etc) was also the heyday of conservatism. High wages and generous social programs gave hard working parents more time to raise the children. This is why the 50s was such a glorious decade - because capitalism had yet to lower the wages/benefits/entitlements of the working class to a level that made it impossible to support a family]

So yes, the good jobs are gone. And if manufacturing jobs do come back, they will be the sort seen in Asia and the 3rd world - ultra cheap wages with zero benefits. This is the model which brings the highest profits to shareholders, and this is the model our political system chose when we freed-up our corporations to seek the cheapest labor markets overseas. Capitalism does not support a thriving middle class of wage-workers. It supports wealthy owners and poor workers.

Folks, the old postwar America where everyone had high paying jobs and great benefits is gone for good. The owners of business no longer want to support a well paid population. They want cheap labor - plain and simple. The old America is gone.

Why do we keep blaming our political parties for a problem that neither can solve? Each successive administration promises prosperity, but each fails because they refuse to admit a simple truth: the old wage and benefit structure of "managed capitalism" has been replaced by the low wages of free market global capitalism. Our politicians can't change structures this big and powerful. If Washington can't run a laundromat, they certainly cannot figure out a way to change the tectonic economic forces that sweep whole civilizations into the dustbin of history.

Why do we have so much faith that the next administration will solve everything? Where did we get this faith in government? Why did the Left buy into Obama's hope and change garbage? Why does each party's voters buy into this garbage?

What if the ride is over? Why can't we admit we had a good run and adjust to the coming mass poverty? Why do we believe that Dear Leader can fix a crisis that is well beyond the power of Washington? Sometimes history does what it wants, and sometimes you just have to man-up and accept it.

Maybe Gingrich is not the messiah any more than Obama was. Yes, I know he and Mitt promise to make government smaller so that business can re-grow our prosperity - but what if the problem is deeper? What if all this empty rhetoric about freedom and small government overlooks the reality that high wages are not coming back? Why are we so seduced by simple bumper stickers?

Why does the Right and Left have so much faith in their respective models... and the politicians who peddle them?

What say you?
The world doesn't come to end. American continue as in the past, but a little poorer, with a middle class standard of living that falls further behind other countries. Check out the UK. They were on top once, as were the French, the Spanish, and the Romans. No body stays on top forever.
 
It's the 1970s all over again. "America's best days are behind us" etc etc. It was bullshit then, it's bullshit now.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPlI5OgxoWQ]America's Best Days Are Ahead - YouTube[/ame]
 
I think the 70s was a crossroads and we took the wrong path.

We ignored the energy crisis because Reagan said petroleum supplies and the middle east were not a problem.

Worse: rather than building a solid foundation of jobs, Reagan lead the offshoring revolution (freeing business to ditch American labor for 3rd world labor. Of course profits skyrocketed, but the middle class consumer died - and now there is not enough demand to keep the economy afloat. And nobody knows where the next fake stimulus is going to come from. Bush used the housing bubble to fuel consumption, but that fake ATM is gone).

Reagan covered up the death of the consumer by putting American families on credit cards. Since Reagan, household debt has skyrocketed.

The debt-to-disposable income ratio of American households more than doubled from 60% in 1980 to 133% in 2007. A recent article in the Economist says that household and consumer debt went up from 100% of GDP in 1980 to 173% now.

Morning in America was a debt-based hoax. Reagan lead America from a nation of producers to a nation of consumers. (Why do you think we all started receiving 3 credit cards a week in the 80s? Because Reagan had to fuel his economic boom with something. After America started hemorrhaging manufacturing jobs in the 70s, credit became the easy answer. Under Reagan, Americans stopped saving and started consuming more and more with money they didn't have. America swallowed poison in 1980. We went on a 30 year spending orgy. This was predictable if you consider the Reagan deficits - which made Carter look like Milton Friedman. Indeed, Reagan turned American into a nation of deficit spenders and we have not looked back since)

30 years of ignoring the energy problem has left us with crippling gas prices.

30 years of debt based consumption has bankrupted the American consumer.

The bill for Morning in America has finally come due.

The game is over.
 
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You're an idiot. Like that was ever in doubt.
Reagan ushered in about 20 years of prosperity and growth. We created the equivalent of the German economy here in the US. Industries that didnt exist in 1980 were flourishing in 1990. The unemployment rate dropped continuously until the Democrats regained control.
We haven't seen our best days. With any luck, we've seen our worst days with everything going uphill once we remove the leftist geek in the White House.
 
Things seem a little brighter in North Dakota:

"The Bank of North Dakota is the only state-owned bank in America—what Republicans might call an idiosyncratic bastion of socialism. It also earned a record profit last year even as its private-sector corollaries lost billions..."

Henry Ford said if Americans ever came to understand banking there would be a revolution by morning. If it's true that all money (except coins) comes from debt that has to be repaid with interest and 40% of the price of everything you buy is interest, public banking like North Dakota's could be Henry's dawn's early light.

There are solutions that could lead to USA 2.0 but they don't favor the banking parasites who've grown rich from nailing humanity to a cross of gold, and they certainly will never be supported by a majority of elected Republicans OR Democrats.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street
 
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Sometimes you post what you wish for. I have no doubt that there is a faction of Americans and maybe left wing foreign radicals who actually hope for the total collapse of the United States and are working consciously or unconsciously toward that goal. You might include the president and some democrat politicians on that list.
 
Government cannot create jobs...and political parties sure as hell don't. Jobs will return when government and it's crony partners like the Fed get the fuck out of the way. Plenty of us are ready to invest in businesses that would require new US workers of all sorts but until we have some idea that big brother isn't waiting just around the corner to throw up obstacles and punish success, we're going to keep that money on the sideline or in well established companies making profit over growth. Sorry, but I'm not risking my capital in today's political/fiscal environment in big job-creating investments. In fact, just the opposite. You are of course free to invest your own money anyway you like.

Punish success? Taxes haven't this good for Corporate America or the investors in modern history. And look at who's gaining most of the National Income, those who have been punished by success?
The OP is right and America must adjust! In order for the US to compete we have to invest in education to meet the completion head. Our completion is investing in education of their youth which is the opposite of the trend in the US. As John Huntsman has said, in order to compete in the new world, we have to focus on the economy and education. While we become less educated out rivals are becoming more educated. I guess that explains why they are gaining on us and set to surpass the US.
Our government should stop the politics and get on with making the US more competitive which should enhance most people's lives.

You're looking at federal corp tax rates only (still higher than most countries, BTW) and forgetting about the taxes, fees, and regulatory compliance expenses at all levels of government. These costs have increased dramatically and with the constant threat of even higher taxes and more regulatory agencies running amok, capital seeks safety...and that means fewer jobs.

Lastly, are you suggesting government should garner MORE control over education in America? Throw more money at it? How's that working out so far?
 
The Left buys into Hope and Change bullshit, and the Right buys into small government bullshit. What if it's all bullshit? What if the ride is genuinely over and we are destined to have "change" elections every 4 years, hoping that the next president can save us?

What if the joke is on us?

Gov't is the biggest employer..then there is something wrong economically speaking since obumer said it's just math. It took him three years and endless golf games to come to that conclusion. That's bullshit and failurism for an excuse for failurism.

But what really is troubling and questionable, no one is talking about the 30 special forces kia august 7, 2011 and then we give away our drone and the obumer administration is not calling on for an investigation. His solution is have eric holder, mr fast and furious, issuing a statement to allow the US to be invaded while global kaos accelerates.
 
Politicians, governments have not created jobs. They've hired people to keep track of what's owed to the rulers. In better times, they provide projects that may help to create an infrastructure that may lead to a better economy, but they do not create those industries that may or may not come about.

what about the industries spawned by the space program?
And the Military Industrial Complex?

And the thousands of jobs now created by govt spending.
How would the medical industry be without Medicare/Medicaid? Lots less jobs.
 
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