What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Fort Fun Indiana]

it's about even, more or less, with the Jews having a slight majority.

The numbers seem to show that. And it would require much more than a "slim majority" on the part of Muslims (a slim majority that doesn't even exist) to convert Israel to a Muslim state.

So I find this claim to be dubious and unsupported and, in fact, contradicted by the factual info available.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

it's about even, more or less, with the Jews having a slight majority.

The numbers seem to show that. And it would require much more than a "slim majority" on the part of Muslims (a slim majority that doesn't even exist) to convert Israel to a Muslim state.

So I find this claim to be dubious and unsupported and, in fact, contradicted by the factual info available.

It would be a binational state.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, et al,

But I think my original question still stands. What meaning does it have as a legal entity, since it can not act in any legal capacity and has no sovereign? It is a territorial designation, the responsibility for which passed from the British Mandate to the UN Commission.

Are you arguing indeed that it is "territory held pending the emergence of local self-government"?

(COMMENT)

Several attempts were made to establish an institution through which representatives for the Arab Palestinian population could be integrated into a cooperative effort with the High Commissioner. The High Commissioner proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”.

The Arab Palestinians maintained an uncooperative stance throughout the Mandate Period. But if they had cooperated, the High Commissioner could have governed Palestine with the aid of Councils which would have included Arab Palestinian input at the Commissioner's level of staff officials. We will never know what a difference would have been made if the Arab Palestinians had cooperated when asked in 1923.

But the Arab Palestinians give the sob story impression that they were completely cut off from the process leading to self-governing Institutions. The hamstrung themselves.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

it's about even, more or less, with the Jews having a slight majority.

The numbers seem to show that. And it would require much more than a "slim majority" on the part of Muslims (a slim majority that doesn't even exist) to convert Israel to a Muslim state.

So I find this claim to be dubious and unsupported and, in fact, contradicted by the factual info available.

It would be a binational state.

It would be a failed state, but fortunately there is no support in Israel for annexing all of Judea and Samaria but only for annexing some or all of area C so the premise this whole conversation is based on bears no relation to reality.

 

[Shusha]

Would you like to read my answers again?

No, I would like you to recant your answer and present a new one that is factual. Or you can recant your claim altogether, as not only have you not supported it, it seems to be contrary to the evidence.

No, you are not going to sidestep this with your bait and switch. One thing at a time.

Sigh. I have already apologized for my initial overestimation of the Arabs in Gaza and the WB. And I have already noted that not all people believe this will be the outcome. (again, see: Caroline Glick's One State Solution).

Kindly address my points.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It would be a binational state.

I suppose so.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Sigh. I have already apologized for my initial overestimation of the Arabs in Gaza and the WB.

But yet you have not retracted or better qualified your claim that Israel would then be overrun by Arab Muslims, turning it into an Arab Muslim state.

So...?

No, I will not be addressing your bait and switch yet. One thing at a time.

 

[Shusha]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, et al,

But I think my original question still stands. What meaning does it have as a legal entity, since it can not act in any legal capacity and has no sovereign? It is a territorial designation, the responsibility for which passed from the British Mandate to the UN Commission.

Are you arguing indeed that it is "territory held pending the emergence of local self-government"?

(COMMENT)

Several attempts were made to establish an institution through which representatives for the Arab Palestinian population could be integrated into a cooperative effort with the High Commissioner. The High Commissioner proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”.

The Arab Palestinians maintained an uncooperative stance throughout the Mandate Period. But if they had cooperated, the High Commissioner could have governed Palestine with the aid of Councils which would have included Arab Palestinian input at the Commissioner's level of staff officials. We will never know what a difference would have been made if the Arab Palestinians had cooperated when asked in 1923.

But the Arab Palestinians give the sob story impression that they were completely cut off from the process leading to self-governing Institutions. The hamstrung themselves.


Most Respectfully,
R

Yes. But that doesn't address my point.

Or rather, I guess it adds another layer to my point. What is the point of the territory as a "legal entity" if self-government is not only failing to emerge, but refused?!

 

[Shusha]

Sigh. I have already apologized for my initial overestimation of the Arabs in Gaza and the WB.

But yet you have not retracted or better qualified your claim that Israel would then be overrun by Arab Muslims, turning it into an Arab Muslim state.

So...?

No, I will not be addressing your bait and switch yet. One thing at a time.

Its a bit bold of you to ignore fully half of my points, and then complain that I haven't made any.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Fort Fun Indiana, et al,

I think you are confused.

I already answered your question. It won't be a minority of Arabs, it will be a majority of Arabs -- 6 million Jews + 8 million Arabs, plus the expected larger Arab population growth, plus the "right of return" for Arabs (but not Jews).

Better check those numbers.

6.7 million Jews in Israel.

1.7 million Muslims in Israel

4.7 million people total in the Palestinian territories, and not all are muslims

So your answer was not a good one. Would you like to recant or modify it?

(COMMENT)

The Palestinians in the disputed territories outside the sovereign Israeli Territory are not part of the Israeli citizenry. They belong to the "State of Palestine" as President Mahmoud Abbas likes to point out. And those 4.7 Million people have their own elections (if their government allows them).


Israeli Citizens don't participate in Palestinian Government (except when the Arab Palestinians want money) and the Arab Palestinian citizens don't vote in Israeli elections; but, do vote in State of Palestine elections → just as they did a decade ago.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Its a bit bold of you to ignore fully half of my points, and then complain that I haven't made any.

I didn't claim you haven't made any points. You tried a bait and switch, and now you are making up lies. This isn't helping your credibility.

We are still discussing your claim that the Arab Muslims will overrun israel and turn it into an arab muslim State. Considering the factual info presented since you made the claim, I fully understand why you don't want to talk about it anymore. But you will be talking to someone else, then.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The Palestinians in the disputed territories outside the sovereign Israeli Territory are not part of the Israeli citizenry. They belong to the "State of Palestine" as President Mahmoud Abbas likes to point out. And those 4.7 Million people have their own elections

You are not following. We are discussing the scenario in which they are all deemed "Israelis" overnight. Slow down.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, et al,

That is called the Ostrich Effect (bury their head in the sand).

Yes. But that doesn't address my point.

Or rather, I guess it adds another layer to my point. What is the point of the territory as a "legal entity" if self-government is not only failing to emerge, but refused?!

(COMMENT)

In 1945, when the original members of the UN wrote Article 70 in the Charter and created the Trusteeship, no one envisioned a situation that the Arab Palestinians created. And without the cooperation and positive effort on the part of the Arab Palestinians, they will stay in the gray zone until they collapse, and everyone has to start shipping in medicine, food and water.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

n 1945, when the original members of the in the Charter and created the Trusteeship, no one envisioned a situation that the Arab Palestinians created.

The trusteeship was created precisely because the Arabs were violently preventing a two State reality. So I don't get your point, here.

 

[Shusha]

Its a bit bold of you to ignore fully half of my points, and then complain that I haven't made any.

I didn't claim you haven't made any points. You tried a bait and switch, and now you are making up lies. This isn't helping your credibility.

We are still discussing your claim that the Arab Muslims will overrun israel and turn it into an arab muslim State. Considering the factual info presented since you made the claim, I fully understand why you don't want to talk about it anymore. But you will be talking to someone else, then.

Actually, we were discussing a number of different issues, all related. It is your bullying and gaslighting behaviour which has narrowed it down to this singular point. You seem to want to hide behind this in order to avoid the larger questions.

To re-iterate my points, should Israel apply sovereignty to the entire territory:

1. The demographics will immediately change to roughly even numbers of Arabs and Jews.
2. The Arab population growth is expected to be higher than the Jewish population growth.
3. The Arab right of return will significantly change the demographics.
4. Not everyone believes that the Arab population will outgrow the Jewish one.
5. Many who wish to see the elimination of the Israel (the Jewish state) make this argument on these discussion boards because they do believe the Arab population will outgrow the Jewish one and convert Palestine into an Arab Muslim state. They often justify this as the morally correct thing to do. (As JoeB has, and as you seem wont to do).

Now, we can talk about the projected demographics if you want. Its a fascinating discussion. And relevant to this thread. Have you read Caroline's book?

But its also important to discuss what these potential changes MEAN to the Jewish people and, also, to the Arab Palestinians who will lose their chance for an independent state.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Actually, we were discussing a number of different issues, all related. It is your bullying and gaslighting behaviour which has narrowed it down to this singular point. Y

No, your apparently spurious claim which is contradicted by the factual information, and which you refuse to recant or modify, is what is causing the focus on this point.

It's simple: recant or modify it. Sorry, I am immune to your Gish Gallop attempts and your bait and switch. I am not letting it stand.

Like I said, you can recant it and admit your error, or talk to someone else.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, et al,

Well, I see your point, but it is not recognized.

[QUOTE="Fort Fun Indiana, post: 24030124, member: 62138"You are not following. We are discussing the scenario in which they are all deemed "Israelis" overnight. Slow down.[/QUOTE]
(COMMENT)

If the general population of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip were all to become citizens overnight, the burden placed on Israel would be so great that you risk having two failed states and a very accomplished set of Terrorist Groups unleashed upon the world. Already, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) has been essentially declared persona non grata (for activities inconsistent with their status) in Saudi Arabia.

See:
Why does Saudi Arabia describe Hamas as a terrorist organisation?
March 9, 2018 at 11:25 am | Published in: Article, Asia & Americas, Israel, Middle East, Opinion, Palestine, Saudi Arabia,


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, et al,

That is called the Ostrich Effect (bury their head in the sand).

Yes. But that doesn't address my point.

Or rather, I guess it adds another layer to my point. What is the point of the territory as a "legal entity" if self-government is not only failing to emerge, but refused?!

(COMMENT)

In 1945, when the original members of the UN wrote Article 70 in the Charter and created the Trusteeship, no one envisioned a situation that the Arab Palestinians created. And without the cooperation and positive effort on the part of the Arab Palestinians, they will stay in the gray zone until they collapse, and everyone has to start shipping in medicine, food and water.


Most Respectfully,
R

Well, yes, I agree. Are you arguing that the legal entity is a Trusteeship for Arab Palestinians (as distinct from Jewish Palestinians) which continues to exist?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If the general population of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip were all to become citizens overnight, the burden placed on Israel would be so great that you risk having two failed states and a very accomplished set of Terrorist Groups unleashed upon the world.

Why would Israel be at risk of becoming a failed state?

Terrorists unleashed on the world? How? What new, magical power or access would they have?

I keep seeing a lot of frightening claims, but I am seeing very little or no evidence presented for them.

 

[Shusha]

No, your apparently spurious claim which is contradicted by the factual information ....

You have not demonstrated that my claims are contradicted by the factual information, other than my initial over-estimation of Gaza and WB Arab population, which I have addressed, three times now.