Zone1 what happens to the souls of aborted infants (or unbaptized ones?)

[Anathema]

In my mind…

The unborn child doesn’t have a Soul yet. I believe the Soul attached at the moment of birth.

As a Spiritual, non-religious person I don’t put as much weight into baptism as Christmas do. In that case, I believe the Soul is simply Judged, just like all our Souls will be.

 

[nomadic5]

.

Depends on how many sins those infants, murdered in the womb or born alive, ever committed.

I guess.

.

The Fate of Unbaptized Infants In Light of the Universal Necessity of Baptism

In reply to the question concerning the salvation of aborted infants by virtue of a vicarious “baptism of desire” on the part of their parents or by “baptism of blood” on ei…

catholicism.org

This is kind of odd for me because even though I understand they are conceived w/ original sin..

well, if they "descend into Hell" as these saints claim... I'm sure God has a way of saving them. I mean, it is not their fault they are not born or that they die b4 they can be baptized... That is unfair and God is supposed to be perfectly just..

I've never disagreed w/ a saint b4... so.. very odd

 

[nomadic5]

In my mind…

The unborn child doesn’t have a Soul yet. I believe the Soul attached at the moment of birth.

IAsa Spiritual, non-religious person I don’t Pitt as much weight into baptism as Christmas do. In that case, I believe the Soul is simply Judged, just like all our Souls will be.

I say the soul is there from Day One of existence

Why would God create a soul-less human creature?

that doesn't make sense to me

 

[nomadic5]

,

Interesting.....................

I'll have to ask the local priest. I've been thinking about this very question a lot.

Was Mary cleansed of original sin in her mother's womb?

.

God created her without original sin because He Himself was going to live in her body... Jesus is God

"IF you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

 

[Cougarbear]

they have original sin on their souls... Thats why I think they go to Purgatory, but probably only God knows... I'm not sure the CC ever claimed to really know

What is the definition of sin?

 

[buttercup]

They go to heaven.

Because they are under the age of accountability and don't have the ability to understand these things, obviously they are not held to the same standard that everyone else is. Same goes with animals. There's scriptures to back that up if I wanted to compile them, but that's the Cliff Notes version.

 

[Anathema]

I say the soul is there from Day One of existence

Why would God create a soul-less human creature?

I understand where you’re coming from. It makes total sense.

In my belief the body itself is nothing more than a suit of clothing for the Soul to wear while it goes through the test of life. Since there is really no decision making for the Soul to do for nine months in the womb, it would be a waste for the Soul to spend it’s time there.

 

[onefour1]

they have original sin on their souls... Thats why I think they go to Purgatory, but probably only God knows... I'm not sure the CC ever claimed to really know

Jesus Christ atoned for original sin and mankind is not held accountable for Adam and Eve's transgression. We are only held accountable for our own sins and transgressions. We are born under original sin but we are not individually accountable for Adam or Eve's transgression. We are only accountable for own sins and transgressions.

 

[sparky]

Was Mary cleansed of original sin in her mother's womb

heh!, yer such a tease OPJQ!....~S~

 

[onefour1]

With all due respect, the Book of Mormon is not the Bible.

With all due respect, we do not claim the Book of Mormon to be the Bible. But we do claim that it is the word of God.

Ezekiel 37:15-20
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The Bible is the stick of Judah. The Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph or Ephraim his son. Both contain the word of God.

 

[Meister]

With all due respect, we do not claim the Book of Mormon to be the Bible. But we do claim that it is the word of God.

Ezekiel 37:15-20
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The Bible is the stick of Judah. The Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph or Ephraim his son. Both contain the word of God.

In the Bible what does it say about how one gets to heaven?
In the Book of Mormon what does it say about how one gets to heaven?

 

[onefour1]

In the Bible what does it say about how one gets to heaven?
In the Book of Mormon what does it say about how one gets to heaven?

They both teach that it is only in and through the Lord Jesus Christ that all mankind can be saved.

 

[Meister]

They both teach that it is only in and through the Lord Jesus Christ that all mankind can be saved.

There is more to it than just that with the Book of Mormon.
The idea that salvation is a gift coming by grace through faith and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9) Mormons emphasize by works
Is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one in the same? Or, is it three different entities?

 

[onefour1]

There is more to it than just that with the Book of Mormon.
The idea that salvation is a gift coming by grace through faith and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9) Mormons emphasize by works
Is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one in the same? Or, is it three different entities?

We believe that works are essential for man to do before Christ will grant his saving grace. Lets add the 10th verse to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here Paul is teaching the Ephesians that it is not our works that save us and that no man can boast that his works were the saving force behind his salvation. However, as verse 10 clear states, we were created in Christ Jesus unto good works and God hath ordained that we should walk in them. Verse 8 above tells us that through faith we are saved by grace. What this means is that we must first have a true and abiding faith before the Lord will save us by his grace. Jesus requires faith. A part of faith, as the Apostles James teaches us, it good works.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Here we see that you cannot have a true faith without doing good works. Neither faith nor works are the saving force behind salvation into the kingdom of heaven, but they are required by God before his grace will be given. It is only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we can be saved, but the Lord requires something at our hand before he will save us with his grace. He requires that we repent and keep his commandments and follow his teachings. These are works that Jesus requires of us. By doing these things we can have a true faith. The Lord Jesus taught the following:

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

From this can you see that doing the will of the Father is the path that leads to the grace of Jesus Christ? We must do something and that something is the will of the Father. His will is that we repent of our sins and seek the grace of Jesus Christ. His will is that we keep his commandments and to love God and all mankind. These are the works that we must do.

Even the Book of Mormon teaches the concept that our faith and works to not save us and that without the grace of Jesus Christ we but unprofitable servants:

Mosiah 2:19-22
19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!
20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

Here King Mosiah teaches his people that if they were to serve God with all their heart, might, mind and strength, they would still be unprofitable servants if not for the grace of Jesus Christ. This is the same as taught in Ephesians 2:8-10. It is not our works that save us but God does require good works at our hands. Works don't save us but they are required before the Lord will save us with his grace. That is the true doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon and in the Bible. We believe that after all we can do, we must have the grace of Jesus Christ or not one of us can be saved.

 

[onefour1]

There is more to it than just that with the Book of Mormon.
The idea that salvation is a gift coming by grace through faith and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9) Mormons emphasize by works
Is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one in the same? Or, is it three different entities?

Show where in the Bible it teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same being or person? We believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all separate and distinct beings and persons and the Bible tends to back that belief up with many scriptures.

 

[Meister]

Might want to bone up with John 1.


Did Joseph Smith add 17 verses to the Bible in Genesis?
Did Joseph Smith add or change nearly 2,500 verses of the Bible??

Hence....the Book of Mormon is the Bible with a twist.....That's your ".....whatever that means".

Now, run along, you believe in your version of the Bible, and I'll believe in truth.
Have a good day, Onefour1

 

[surada]

Infants who die, die in Christ. They have not yet reached the age of accountability and are incapable of committing sin. They are pure in the eyes of God. Infant baptism is a false teaching and is completely unnecessary.

So is original sin.

 

[surada]

they have original sin on their souls... Thats why I think they go to Purgatory, but probably only God knows... I'm not sure the CC ever claimed to really know

Jews and Muslims don't believe in original sin.

 

[surada]

From the Book of Mormon we have the following:

Moroni 8
CHAPTER 8

The baptism of little children is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the Atonement—Faith, repentance, meekness and lowliness of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end lead to salvation. About A.D. 401–21.

1 An epistle of my father Mormon, written to me, Moroni; and it was written unto me soon after my calling to the ministry. And on this wise did he write unto me, saying:
2 My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you, and hath called you to his ministry, and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.
28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.
30 Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again. Amen.

So Joseph Smith wrote that?

 

[Moonglow]

From the Book of Mormon we have the following:

Moroni 8
CHAPTER 8

The baptism of little children is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the Atonement—Faith, repentance, meekness and lowliness of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end lead to salvation. About A.D. 401–21.

1 An epistle of my father Mormon, written to me, Moroni; and it was written unto me soon after my calling to the ministry. And on this wise did he write unto me, saying:
2 My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you, and hath called you to his ministry, and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.
28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.
30 Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again. Amen.

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