What happens after?

[Dragon]

You have first hand knowledge? How long were you dead?

Every mystic has firsthand knowledge, it's quite possible to experience union with God while alive, and that sort of experience is the only real source of knowledge anyone has. Everything else is just arbitrary pronouncements.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You have first hand knowledge? How long were you dead?

Every mystic has firsthand knowledge, it's quite possible to experience union with God while alive, and that sort of experience is the only real source of knowledge anyone has. Everything else is just arbitrary pronouncements.

You do understand that what you just said is an arbitrary pronouncement?
A personal relationship with God is eternal. It transcends "while we are alive". And it is definitely not the only source of knowledge concerning Him.
We are told by God to study to show ourselves approved. Study what? The mind of mystics, or the Word? In your mystic union with God, did He reveal His son to you? If not, your first hand knowledge of/with "God" may not have been God at all.

 

[Dragon]

You do understand that what you just said is an arbitrary pronouncement?

No, it's a statement based on the evidence of experience, not arbitrary at all. OTOH, statements based on doctrine and Scripture are based on nothing but threats and promises, and in the way of evidence, on nothing at all.

We are told by God

No, you are told by a book, which people who have no basis for this claim have told you is the word of God. There is only one way to be told anything by God, and that is in direct experience of the holy.

In your mystic union with God, did He reveal His son to you? If not, your first hand knowledge of/with "God" may not have been God at all.

Now you are judging the validity of the only evidence available to us, based on claims that are not based on evidence in any way. That's logically backwards.

As for what God revealed, it is not in a form that I can put into language for you, sorry. The only way to understand it is to experience it yourself. All I will say is that nothing you have been told is true in the way you understand it now. Some of it is true in a different way, but you are not equipped at this point to comprehend it.

 

[AmericanFirst]

You do understand that what you just said is an arbitrary pronouncement?

No, it's a statement based on the evidence of experience, not arbitrary at all. OTOH, statements based on doctrine and Scripture are based on nothing but threats and promises, and in the way of evidence, on nothing at all.

We are told by God

No, you are told by a book, which people who have no basis for this claim have told you is the word of God. There is only one way to be told anything by God, and that is in direct experience of the holy.

In your mystic union with God, did He reveal His son to you? If not, your first hand knowledge of/with "God" may not have been God at all.

Now you are judging the validity of the only evidence available to us, based on claims that are not based on evidence in any way. That's logically backwards.

As for what God revealed, it is not in a form that I can put into language for you, sorry. The only way to understand it is to experience it yourself. All I will say is that nothing you have been told is true in the way you understand it now. Some of it is true in a different way, but you are not equipped at this point to comprehend it.

If it any other way than what the Bible says, it is false and more than likely from satan.

 

[edthecynic]

So, do you think that God created Eve as an afterthought? If God wanted children, and created Adam with a sperm injection unit, do you not think he already had a plan for a receptacle?

What does a "sperm injection unit" have to do with the fact that Adam was alone while sinlessly one with God?

I must have struck a nerve because of the desperate attempts at diversion over navels and sperm injection units!

Adam wasn't alone. God was with him. No where does it say that Adam got lonely. Nor did Adam tell God he was lonely. Lonely for what?? Adam didn't know what lonely was, or what "companionship" was. He didn't know what a wife was.

GOD SAID HE didn't want Adam to be alone. HE wanted Adam to have a helpmate. It wasn't Adam's idea.
Eve wasn't an afterthought brought about by some emotional distress Adam was having.

Contradicting God and rewriting the bible.

God said that sinless Adam was alone while he was one with God and it was not good.

Gen 2: 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 

[Dragon]

If it any other way than what the Bible says, it is false and more than likely from satan.

Satan does not exist except in your own mind. He's the one who whispers that you will go to Hell if you do not believe in a certain way, because he fears free thought -- it too often leads to good. He prefers dogmatism, which leads to such things as crusades and inquisitions and airplanes flying into skyscrapers and suicide-bombers and assassins killing doctors and poor people giving their meager life savings to televangelists.

Those who serve Satan always think they are serving God. And one sign of it is a fear of removing the chains on their minds.

 

[Liability]

Next!

 

[The Irish Ram]

You do understand that what you just said is an arbitrary pronouncement?

No, it's a statement based on the evidence of experience, not arbitrary at all. OTOH, statements based on doctrine and Scripture are based on nothing but threats and promises, and in the way of evidence, on nothing at all.

We are told by God

No, you are told by a book, which people who have no basis for this claim have told you is the word of God. There is only one way to be told anything by God, and that is in direct experience of the holy.

In your mystic union with God, did He reveal His son to you? If not, your first hand knowledge of/with "God" may not have been God at all.

Now you are judging the validity of the only evidence available to us, based on claims that are not based on evidence in any way. That's logically backwards.

As for what God revealed, it is not in a form that I can put into language for you, sorry. The only way to understand it is to experience it yourself. All I will say is that nothing you have been told is true in the way you understand it now. Some of it is true in a different way, but you are not equipped at this point to comprehend it.

I have experienced specific answer to specific prayer, so by your definition, I also have evidence based on experience.

I'm judging the validity of your claim, which has no evidence other than your feelings.
If I am not equipped to understand what you understand, then, what equipment am I lacking in order to comprehend your God?

Is His Revelation only understandable to who? You? Mystics? Why would He be so elusive? Do you have any evidence to your claim that the only way you can know God is through direct contact with "the holy"? If that is the case, I'm in direct contact with Him all the time, through prayer. Why would He tell you stuff and not me?

How do you channel your God? What is the method/protocol for experiencing God? Is He only available to those who know how to tune Him in?

And if you can type, I can understand, so enlighten me. If you say I am wrong in what I believe, then you must know what is right. Spill it. What did God tell ya.
Does evil exist? Only in one's mind? Do you not see evil on this earth?
Which brings me to my real concern:

What evidence do you have that the enlightenment you received, came from God????
My evidence of experience tells me you are dancing with the devil and you think it's God.
Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

 

[The Irish Ram]

If it any other way than what the Bible says, it is false and more than likely from satan.

Satan does not exist except in your own mind. He's the one who whispers that you will go to Hell if you do not believe in a certain way, because he fears free thought -- it too often leads to good. He prefers dogmatism, which leads to such things as crusades and inquisitions and airplanes flying into skyscrapers and suicide-bombers and assassins killing doctors and poor people giving their meager life savings to televangelists.

Those who serve Satan always think they are serving God. And one sign of it is a fear of removing the chains on their minds.

Wait a minute. Satan doesn't exist yet you just described his personality?
The only thing that Satan prefers is that you believe in anything but Jesus Christ. Planes into buildings just makes him giggle. His agenda is to get you to believe that Jesus isn't necessary. And that God is available to you without Christ.
Kind of like what you are saying.........

 

[Dragon]

I have experienced specific answer to specific prayer, so by your definition, I also have evidence based on experience.

If you mean that you prayed for something, and it came to pass, or you came to understand why it shouldn't, that is evidence for the efficacy of prayer, and nothing else. If you mean something else, you need to explain that.

I'm judging the validity of your claim, which has no evidence other than your feelings.
If I am not equipped to understand what you understand, then, what equipment am I lacking in order to comprehend your God?

What you are lacking is the experience necessary to comprehend your own God, yourself, and your position in the universe, and what's more, your adherence to doctrine is denying you the mental flexibility and willingness to expand your own consciousness that would be required to gain it.

There can never be any evidence for mystical understanding. It is inherently a subjective thing that not only can't be proven but also can't be communicated.

Is His Revelation only understandable to who?

What you mean by "His Revelation" does not exist. There are no words in human language -- any human language that has ever been -- capable of explaining the truth of God. That's not a limitation of God, it's a limitation of our linguistic tools, which consist of tags associated with items of shared experience. We have no words for anything that is not a shared experience, and if we did, they would be words pointing to nothing for anyone who has not had the experience it points to.

Why would He be so elusive?

Because your entire conception of God is in error, and the question doesn't even really apply. You think of God as something separate from yourself, who consciously created the world in a manner expressive of perfect goodness, and has a plan (in the ordinary human sense) for your life. If that were true, and if one's eternal destination depended on coming to understand God's plan and aid it, then indeed the limited ability of the mind to understand God would be unfair.

As none of that is even remotely true, though, it's not. It's just the way things are.

And if you can type, I can understand, so enlighten me.

No, that doesn't follow. I can only type in English and French, both of which are human languages suffering the same limitation as other human languages. I can give you some tips towards gaining understanding for yourself, but there is no way I or anyone else can spoon-feed it to you.

 

[BluePhantom]

According to my beliefs....you do pretty much whatever you want. If you wish to re-join with God you can. If you want to go do something else of a spiritual nature, knock yourself out. If you wish to experience more you can be reborn and give it another go.

I don't think God makes any of those decisions for us. According to my beliefs after we die He asks us "so....how did it go? Did you find what you were looking for? Are you satisfied?" If we say no, He says "well go give it another shot then." If we says yes then He says "so what do you want to do now then? It's up to you."

I also believe that some people choose to be reborn after they have realized and experienced all they need to, but they do so for the purpose of helping those who haven't.

 

[AmericanFirst]

If it any other way than what the Bible says, it is false and more than likely from satan.

Satan does not exist except in your own mind. He's the one who whispers that you will go to Hell if you do not believe in a certain way, because he fears free thought -- it too often leads to good. He prefers dogmatism, which leads to such things as crusades and inquisitions and airplanes flying into skyscrapers and suicide-bombers and assassins killing doctors and poor people giving their meager life savings to televangelists.

Those who serve Satan always think they are serving God. And one sign of it is a fear of removing the chains on their minds.

Followers of satan are always confused, as you are. God gave man free will. Satan tells you lies that you seem to believe. Good luck and use lots of sun block.

 

[Dragon]

God gave man free will.

And also intelligence, and then, if your view were correct, insisted that we not use either of them on pain of perpetual torture.

Satan tells you lies that you seem to believe.

The way to avoid being successfully lied to is to use critical thinking, which helps point out just how self-contradictory and idiotic traditional Christian doctrine is. Whether or not Satan lies (or exists), Christianity most certainly does lie, and unfortunately its existence is equally obvious. I am not the one being lied to.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I have experienced specific answer to specific prayer, so by your definition, I also have evidence based on experience.

If you mean that you prayed for something, and it came to pass, or you came to understand why it shouldn't, that is evidence for the efficacy of prayer, and nothing else. If you mean something else, you need to explain that.

I'm judging the validity of your claim, which has no evidence other than your feelings.
If I am not equipped to understand what you understand, then, what equipment am I lacking in order to comprehend your God?

What you are lacking is the experience necessary to comprehend your own God, yourself, and your position in the universe, and what's more, your adherence to doctrine is denying you the mental flexibility and willingness to expand your own consciousness that would be required to gain it.

There can never be any evidence for mystical understanding. It is inherently a subjective thing that not only can't be proven but also can't be communicated.



What you mean by "His Revelation" does not exist. There are no words in human language -- any human language that has ever been -- capable of explaining the truth of God. That's not a limitation of God, it's a limitation of our linguistic tools, which consist of tags associated with items of shared experience. We have no words for anything that is not a shared experience, and if we did, they would be words pointing to nothing for anyone who has not had the experience it points to.

Why would He be so elusive?

Because your entire conception of God is in error, and the question doesn't even really apply. You think of God as something separate from yourself, who consciously created the world in a manner expressive of perfect goodness, and has a plan (in the ordinary human sense) for your life. If that were true, and if one's eternal destination depended on coming to understand God's plan and aid it, then indeed the limited ability of the mind to understand God would be unfair.

As none of that is even remotely true, though, it's not. It's just the way things are.

And if you can type, I can understand, so enlighten me.

No, that doesn't follow. I can only type in English and French, both of which are human languages suffering the same limitation as other human languages. I can give you some tips towards gaining understanding for yourself, but there is no way I or anyone else can spoon-feed it to you.

If that's the case then what good is knowing God? What's it do for you?
Do you feel better or smarter after you comprehend his essence?
Is basking in his essence what it's all about?
Do you comprehend it more than once or is once enough to put you in your cosmic place?
And what happens to your "enlightenment" when you die? Do you become one with the universe?
Does he/it reveal anything other than it's essence? A purpose perhaps?
How do you know you channeled God, and not a solar flare? An electrical cosmic charge, maybe. Or a sinister essence, pretending to be God, for your consumption?
What experience do I need, that I lack, to comprehend God? And what happens if I never do get the experience, before I die? Am I just SOL? or am I cosmic bound also, regardless?
What happens if I die without ever gaining the experience needed to comprehend? Does it make one bit of difference to the final result? and
What is the final result?

 

[Dragon]

If that's the case then what good is knowing God? What's it do for you?

A great many things. It removes my fear of death. It gives me at most times a sense of the divine presence that is pure happiness. It gives me inner peace. It resolves great internal conflicts that once dominated my life. It empowers my magic, and helps me understand why certain self-destructive actions of my past were unwise.

However, I think you're asking the wrong question here, or asking it in the wrong context, and you illustrate that below:

And what happens to your "enlightenment" when you die? Do you become one with the universe?
Does he/it reveal anything other than it's essence? A purpose perhaps?

I get a strong sense that what you are looking for here is a satisfying story. I found myself looking for the truth instead. It makes for a less satisfying narrative than one I could make up, or than others could make up. But it's the truth: the only truth in a religious sense that there is, and it's the SAME truth regardless of the belief-system background from which it is approached, or the symbolic language in which a teacher has expressed it.

How do you know you channeled God, and not a solar flare?

What makes you think there's a difference?

You begin with a preconceived idea and you paste the label "God" on this preconceived idea. What you mean by "God" does not exist. However, there is a Reality which underlies all such ideas, and indeed all the rest of reality, including myself. I found this Reality not by tuning into something like a radio signal, but by going deep within myself until all the particulars of myself were set aside, and only the Ground of Being was left. It's impossible to mistake this for anything else. And it is not so much being in the presence of someone else, but more like remembering that what I go through life thinking I am is an illusion and a mask. To understand, take off the mask and set it down.

You see, this can't be said in straight language.

What happens if I die without ever gaining the experience needed to comprehend? Does it make one bit of difference to the final result? and
What is the final result?

There is no "final result." Time itself, like your own identity, is an illusion.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If that's the case then what good is knowing God? What's it do for you?

A great many things. It removes my fear of death. It gives me at most times a sense of the divine presence that is pure happiness. It gives me inner peace. It resolves great internal conflicts that once dominated my life. It empowers my magic, and helps me understand why certain self-destructive actions of my past were unwise.

However, I think you're asking the wrong question here, or asking it in the wrong context, and you illustrate that below:

And what happens to your "enlightenment" when you die? Do you become one with the universe?
Does he/it reveal anything other than it's essence? A purpose perhaps?

I get a strong sense that what you are looking for here is a satisfying story. I found myself looking for the truth instead. It makes for a less satisfying narrative than one I could make up, or than others could make up. But it's the truth: the only truth in a religious sense that there is, and it's the SAME truth regardless of the belief-system background from which it is approached, or the symbolic language in which a teacher has expressed it.

How do you know you channeled God, and not a solar flare?

What makes you think there's a difference?

You begin with a preconceived idea and you paste the label "God" on this preconceived idea. What you mean by "God" does not exist. However, there is a Reality which underlies all such ideas, and indeed all the rest of reality, including myself. I found this Reality not by tuning into something like a radio signal, but by going deep within myself until all the particulars of myself were set aside, and only the Ground of Being was left. It's impossible to mistake this for anything else. And it is not so much being in the presence of someone else, but more like remembering that what I go through life thinking I am is an illusion and a mask. To understand, take off the mask and set it down.

You see, this can't be said in straight language.

What happens if I die without ever gaining the experience needed to comprehend? Does it make one bit of difference to the final result? and
What is the final result?

There is no "final result." Time itself, like your own identity, is an illusion.

If time is an illusion, is aging also an illusion?
If I hit you in the head with a dinosaur's leg bone will you bleed or did I just think I hit you in the head? Who's illusions do we choose? Yours, that hitting you didn't really happen, I just perceived it as happening, or will we use my illusion, that you are bleeding, and need a band aid?

If you found this reality within yourself, then is the same reality within us all, or is your self induced/produced reality different that a reality I might produce by going deep? Does a mentally unbalanced person get a mentally unbalanced sense of the Divine when they get down to the ground level? Do all those that reach the ground level get the same sense of the Divine/enlightenment that you got?

What remains of you when you de-mask? Why do you need to disappear in order for the Divine to appear to you? Are the two of you not compatible?

And if you are an illusion, how can you have a "ground of being" based on your own illusion of your own deepness? Have you not created your own illusion of well being? Sybil dug deep and created her own reality to suit her circumstances. How do you know you aren't mimicking Sybil?

If you can't base your reality on something tangible, how do you know that your reality/ground of being, is more than a mere initiative that you created to confront your own fears?
Could you coming to an understanding of why you engaged in destructive behavior in your past be a process of maturation and general wisdom?

When the illusion of time takes it's toll on you, and you literally wear out and die, does your "ground of being" follow you to the grave? Are you and your knowledge of the essence of the Divine done?

If I already feel good and have no fear of death, and have put my childish ways behind me, then is introspection a waste of my time? Haven't I achieved what you have, without going deep?

Will the illusion of time continue whether you are aware or not? Will I also disappear when your illusion of being goes? Because it sounds like I only exist as part of your illusion, or neither of us exist at all, deeply or not.
I am.

How do you know that God, and not Satan is responsible for your depth? Satan's ability to derail you is greater than your ability to discern who you are in touch with internally. What protocol did you use to determine your belief that it is God and not Satan, you discover when you set aside your particulars?

The God I know tells us not to lean on our own understanding, unless we fool ourselves. Are you sure your not fooling yourself?
After all, everything you know about the Divine, came from your self examination of self to resolve self issues. You are self aware, and therefore limited to illusions of what self can do for self. And doesn't that make you sort of self-ish? I got mine, get your own? What does your awareness, do for your brother? Does it make him fear your death less, or his own?

 

[Dragon]

If time is an illusion, is aging also an illusion?

Everything we experience is an illusion. That doesn't mean we don't experience it, only that it isn't what we think it is, and more importantly, we ourselves aren't who we think we are.

If you found this reality within yourself, then is the same reality within us all

Yes.

What remains of you when you de-mask? Why do you need to disappear in order for the Divine to appear to you? Are the two of you not compatible?

The reason you must disappear is that the two of you are not two, but one. You are God wearing a mask. Take off the mask, and God remains.

As for "what happens after," there's a saying in Zen Buddhism: Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. Or, another saying: First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is a mountain again.

The ego, and our limited identity, are mechanisms we use to live as biological organisms. They have no other function, but that function is important as long as we remain alive. So they don't disappear, we just come to understand that this is not ME.

If you can't base your reality on something tangible, how do you know that your reality/ground of being, is more than a mere initiative that you created to confront your own fears?

Something is "based on something tangible" when it is a logical conclusion derived from secondary external evidence. (Or it's not based on something tangible and that becomes a valid criticism.) But none of this applies to primary experience. Is your belief that your own senses are operational "based on something tangible"? No, they themselves ARE the "something tangible" that other, logically derived conclusions are based on.

Mystical experience is like that: not a derived conclusion but a primary experience, as undeniable as sight, hearing, smell, touch, or taste.

Could you coming to an understanding of why you engaged in destructive behavior in your past be a process of maturation and general wisdom?

That's exactly what it was, but facilitated and made much easier and much more effective by spiritual experience. If you're asking me whether this particular benefit could possibly be achieved by anyone without such experience, of course I must answer yes, but that's beside the point; you asked what it had given me and I answered.

When the illusion of time takes it's toll on you, and you literally wear out and die, does your "ground of being" follow you to the grave?

No. As I said in an earlier post, that there is more than one consciousness is part of (central to, in fact) the Great Illusion. My consciousness is not individual. God is experiencing the world through my brain and my body. When it dies, God will go on experiencing the world through all other brains and bodies (and whatever vehicles may exist out there in the universe) as he/she/it already does. My own individual consciousness will not disappear because it never existed in the first place. My personality and memory, however, will be gone, except insofar as all things are preserved in the cosmic memory.

If I already feel good and have no fear of death, and have put my childish ways behind me, then is introspection a waste of my time? Haven't I achieved what you have, without going deep?

Only if you think of it as a means to an end, and if you think the ends are only the first ones that came into my mind in answer to your question.

How do you know that God, and not Satan is responsible for your depth?

In the same way that I know that I breathe and I see and I hear. You are referring to an impossibility, and no, I can't explain why it's impossible. But it is. You don't understand what I'm talking about here, and that's fine; you can't be expected to, nor can I explain it to you except in hints and metaphors. But the dichotomy you are drawing is completely false.

The God I know tells us not to lean on our own understanding, unless we fool ourselves. Are you sure your not fooling yourself?

Absolutely, and in fact those words are a lie intended to shut God out of the Church. The Church as created in the 4th century when Constantine called the Council of Nicaea was an instrument intended to support the established order and the authority of the Empire. It could not permit any ideas to emerge which threatened stability, and there is nothing more threatening, more promising of change than the presence of God. This is why mystics are so relatively rare in established Christianity (though not unknown), and why when the Church held the power to do this they were so often condemned for heresy and burned at the stake. The Church can survive many things, but the presence of God is not one of them.

In the end, though, mystical experience is the only source of information we have about God. All of the words you are relying on are (at best) the expression of someone else's mystical experience. For what else, after all, is a prophet, except someone who has stood in the presence of God?

You can get your information at second hand, filtered through orthodox authorities who twist it to their own purposes, and be incapable of understanding it even to the extent it remains pure (because of that drawback to human language), or you can get it at first hand and truly understand. There is no other way.

 

[edthecynic]

What happens if I die without ever gaining the experience needed to comprehend? Does it make one bit of difference to the final result? and
What is the final result?

Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.
- Epicurus

 

[The Irish Ram]

I'd like to quote our conversation like you are. It makes our responses to specific questions easier to identify, but for some reason, I can't use anything on the board. I don't know why, but it makes my posts a little harder to follow, so bear with me Dragon.

I understand your premise, I don't understand it's purpose.
If you are not two, but one, and the illusion of you is God wearing a mask, my first question is,
Why does God need a mask?
Can the Divine not experience unless he has a a mortal brain to experience with? And when your's wears out he moves on and experiences life with someone else's brain? What is divine about that? Sounds like he needs us more than we need him. It sounds a little parasitic.

In a nut shell what you are saying is we have the same reality in us, it does not change anything. Except for a mental euphoria, the mask is still chopping wood. And it is still self-edifying. You are not then, your brother's keeper. You are God. As is your brother. So, chop till you drop........

Tangible senses:
But, but, our senses ARE based on "something tangible" when it is a logical conclusion derived from secondary external evidence."
Our senses are not tangible. You can't touch what I am hearing, you can't see it, but you can touch my ears. In fact without something tangible like a finger, or nerve endings, you have no "sense" of touch at all. Without tangible external taste buds, there is no sense of taste.

Understanding:
If a spiritual experience helped you to see things differently, and that has given you peace, and I can achieve the same understanding without the spiritual experience, would I not also reap the benefit of peace? If so, the mask is as well equipped as the Divine in finding the answers and the peace that comes with it. God is reduced to a feel good trip/experience. Can drugs also enhance or expedite a spiritual experience? Does a sweat lodge help to put self aside, and become one? Fasting?

If your own conscience-ness never existed, than what is that mask that you set aside? Isn't it your own awareness? Why would the Divine trick you into believing that you have to put something aside that really doesn't exist in the first place? If after all this you, your personality and memory cease to exist, then you are nothing but a vehicle for the Divine to experience what the Divine should be able to experience without your organs.
I fear Satan made up cosmicmemoryoneness to make you feel good about yourself or your lack of self.

As for the church, Jesus started the Church. Sadly, man created a bunch of churches as per THEIR deep individual enlightenings. Had they stuck to what Jesus said, there would be one church serving in the presence of God, not in spite of Him.

Your mystical experience IS the only source of info you have about your God. I have more evidence, beyond my own personal experience.
I have eye witness accounts of God in the flesh, with a purpose. I have science and archeology. I have prophesy. I have eye witness accounts of the dead in Christ returning to life. I have the explanation of God's ultimate goal regarding life, and I don't have to give up any of my own essense to be a part of it. He wants us whole. We come to Him, just as we are. The God of the Bible participates in our lives, not the other way around.
What is the purpose of a cosmic memory??

My memories will remain mine throughout eternity. My knowledge will be put to use. It has a purpose.

I can be myself and still be one with my God. I have a soul that encases my ground being, and never ceases to exist as me, not some collective, because my God has tangible plans for my cosmic future. You seem to be a mask, a vessel that carries your God around until he trades you in for a newer model. What's a cosmic memory worth if it benefits no one? What's the point of a cosmic memory? Does it benefit the cosmos in any way?

The definition of a prophet is one that foretells the future. You believe it is someone that has been in the presence of God. If you have indeed been in the presence of God, then by your definition, that makes you a prophet. You should be able to tell me something about the future.
The God I know, predicted, for the soul purpose of letting us know that He can see the end from the beginning. Through his prophets, I have a tangible map of the events I am watching on TV. My God lets me know what to expect on this earth. Before it happened, My grandmother already knew that Israel will exist again, and will be surrounded by it's enemies, and what the outcome will be. She told me. I read it. I watch it unfold on TV.
I have been given more than my own understanding to draw on.

Gentle Dragon,
Satan can make you feel like a million bucks. He can convince anyone that he is that Divine, unifying, warm cosmic essence that you are finding deep within yourself, if you lean on your own concept of what God is. He is smarter than you. Satan can convince you that he doesn't even exist.
Demand proof of who you are masking for.

 

[Dragon]

I'd like to quote our conversation like you are. It makes our responses to specific questions easier to identify, but for some reason, I can't use anything on the board. I don't know why, but it makes my posts a little harder to follow, so bear with me Dragon.

Here's how you do that. After using the "quote" button, you'll see some code at the beginning and end. The word "quote" appears between brackets [] at the beginning and "/quote" at the end, also in brackets. The first quote begins the quote formatting, and the second one ends it. To put something in quote formatting, simply type similar code at the beginning and end of the section you wish to set off.

Actually the code at the beginning says "quote=" followed by the name of the poster being quoted and some stuff at the end; this results in the text "Originally posted by The Irish Ram" at the beginning.

I understand your premise, I don't understand it's purpose.
If you are not two, but one, and the illusion of you is God wearing a mask, my first question is,
Why does God need a mask?

An excellent question, and one without a completely satisfactory answer. Probably the best two I've seen are the two I used at the beginning of my novel The Golden Game, this one from William Blake's "Marriage of Heaven and Hell":

Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence. From these contraries spring what the religious call Good & Evil. Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing from Energy. Good is Heaven. Evil is Hell.

The other is from Liber Al Vel Legis by Aleister Crowley:

Then said the prophet and apostle of infinite space . . . let men speak of thee not as One but as None . . . None, breathed the light, faint and faerie, of the stars, and Two. For I am divided for love’s sake, for the chance of union.

Unity means stasis, because there is no distinction between one moment and the next -- and since everything that happens must happen in time, division therefore is necessary for anything to happen. Of course, that only takes the question back a step, because one must then ask why anything needs to happen. Perhaps Crowley's answer is the correct one, and it's all for the sake of love, which requires two at minimum.

In fact, this sort of speculation is one reason why I reject the idea, which one can find in eastern religions or some interpretations thereof, that incarnation and material existence is a mistake to be rectified. Since all is/was One ab initio, if the goal were to get back there, why are we here? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

A parallel error IMO is the comparable idea in Western religions that the point of life is an afterlife. Although in specific these two are different ideas, they have a similar implication that our "real" lives are somewhere other than this world. I wrote a blog entry on that called "The First Noble Falsehood," which you can read here if you're interested: The Dragon Talking: The First Noble Falsehood

Be that as it may, and as I said earlier, I don't have a complete and uplifting story to offer here. All I know for certain is that there is the All, which is the true I, and there is the division of the I into fragments (not only in space but also in time), and my own ego or limited self-sense is an organizing method for one such fragmentary division. Perhaps the All isn't God in the sense you mean; perhaps God is something that is evolving still, a potential to be realized way down the road, and in prayer what we sense is a sort of "virtual God."

In a nut shell what you are saying is we have the same reality in us, it does not change anything. Except for a mental euphoria, the mask is still chopping wood. And it is still self-edifying. You are not then, your brother's keeper. You are God. As is your brother. So, chop till you drop........

No, that doesn't follow, because morality is not something that's founded in the All to begin with, but is a function operant at a lower, more particular level. Consider that you have to have division and hence the possibility of action before you can prefer one action over another. So while one can argue that it's all the same to God (with perfect justification IMO), that doesn't mean it is, or should be, all the same to US -- by which I mean the ordinary idea of "us."

Part of chopping wood and carrying water is making moral judgments. That's something we do because it's how we're put together. And I am familiar with the argument that since we're all God anyway compassion is pointless, but if the division is for love, for the chance of union, that's hardly true -- and anyway, lack of compassion is equally pointless from that cosmic view, so hardly to be preferred. And we have lower-down reasons to prefer compassion.

But, but, our senses ARE based on "something tangible" when it is a logical conclusion derived from secondary external evidence."

There are ideas ABOUT the senses which are, but the senses THEMSELVES are not. You don't have to reason logically to know that you are hearing something, or that any experience is happening. This is something you literally cannot doubt while it's happening. The same is true of mystical experience: it can't be doubted while it's happening -- literally. I don't mean doubting it doesn't make logical sense, I mean it's literally, utterly impossible to doubt it.

I would have a very hard time explaining that, though.

God is reduced to a feel good trip/experience.

Hmm, not just that. But the spiritual experience really is, operationally speaking, what God is -- the reality underlying the ideas. Or rather, whatever reality gives rise to spiritual experience is that.

Can drugs also enhance or expedite a spiritual experience? Does a sweat lodge help to put self aside, and become one? Fasting?

Oh yes, all of those are time-honored methods of altering consciousness, as is meditation, prayer, religious ritual, and it can also happen spontaneously. Sometimes I get into the state while writing poetry. I've seen it done through dance, through sex, through all kinds of things. However, it's also possible to enter a drugged state and come nowhere near a mystical experience, so it's not as simple as it sounds.

If your own conscience-ness never existed, than what is that mask that you set aside? Isn't it your own awareness?

No, it's a set of ideas about who you are. Awareness remains. Let me tell you about one exercise that helped me and has helped students of mine from time to time. I call it "going in/going out."

Start with a breathing exercise for a few minutes. Then discard in your mind your identification with various parts of your environment -- your possessions, your body, your mind, your feelings. As you do this, if you do it right, your body-awareness will dim and your mind will quiet. You will eventually be left identified with nothing, with an infinitely small part at the center.

Then take up these parts of "yourself" again, and now expand outward. Let the dividing line between you and your immediate surroundings be expanded so that they are included in your perception of "self." Keep expanding that line so that it encompasses the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, the cosmos (at each stage, if need be, you can recognize the physical interaction which identifies all of these as a single system.)

The end-point experience of both going in and going out is similar. But at all stages of it, you remain aware, you just change your understanding of selfhood, and so come to see, on a visceral and experiential level, that the normal concept of selfhood is a convenience, and arbitrary function of memory, and in a very specific sense an illusion.

As for the church, Jesus started the Church.

What Jesus started was a Jewish sect, which the Apostles and their followers continued after the Crucifixion. What Paul of Tarsus started was a diverse non-Jewish religion that followed Jesus' teachings and certain ideas about Jesus that Paul promulgated (although branches of it spun wide of those ideas). What the Emperor Constantine, via the bishops of his time, started was a political body that employed Christian doctrine to uphold the authority of the Empire. And it is from this Imperial Church that modern Christian doctrine in its standard form, as shared by the Orthodox, Catholic, and most Protestant Christians, derives. The idea that Christian theology and doctrine derives directly from the teachings of Christ is one for which there is no evidence, and there is much evidence from the Gospels and from the forms of worship followed by the earliest post-Crucifixion Nazarenes that he never intended to found a new religion at all.

Your mystical experience IS the only source of info you have about your God. I have more evidence, beyond my own personal experience.

As I said, all of that derives from accounts of other people who have undergone mystical experience. That includes Jesus, of course.

Everything in religion that is not mysticism is make-believe.

The definition of a prophet is one that foretells the future.

If that were true, there would be no difference between a prophet and a psychic. A prophet is not a fortune-teller; he is someone who claims to speak for God, and he can make that claim only on the basis of personal experience, and the only such experience that ever happens to anyone is mystical in nature. If he does predict the future (some prophets do, some don't), that is a power derived from his or her experience of God, and it is the experience of God that remains primary and defining.

Through his prophets, I have a tangible map of the events I am watching on TV. My God lets me know what to expect on this earth.

An interesting claim. Care to make some of those predictions public so we can test the theory?

Gentle Dragon,
Satan can make you feel like a million bucks.

I know you mean well, but you are giving kindergarten lessons to a postgraduate student. There really is not much point in doing that.