What exactly is the Holy Grail - and why has its meaning eluded us for centuries?

[Natural Citizen]

Have been to many places in my "quest". 'Followed' the Romans from Sidi Bou Said all the way up through Europe. But never made it to Hadrian's Wall; and beyond.

But have never visited Rome. Who knows what lies in the vaults of the Vatican.

The Vatican surely has those vessels that Titus hauled away from that second temple, which he destroyed. The second temple being the replacement temple for the first one, which Nebuchadnezzar destroyed. This was actually documented on the Arch of Titus. Though, the Vatican denyies having them.

Anyway. I always think of Fergus and the Black Knight whenever I hear Hadrian's Wall mentioned.

Cool stuff, Mindful. There's hardly ever anything like this stuff discussed.

 

[there4eyeM]

It's all part of the grotesque misinterpretation of the significance of Jesus. Everything about him of real importance is metaphysical, and everything physical, meaningless.

Not necessarily. It could be the Ark of the Covenant. It did exist.

Its existence is of no transcendent importance. That is the point. Whether or not the object was 'real', it at most only distracts from the greater message.

Is there a message?

Yes. Or, perhaps, as many as the people prepared to explore the possibilities without the blinders of 'received wisdom'.

 

[there4eyeM]

There's another town I went to in the Camargue, called the Three Mary's.

All interesting stuff, if one were curious enough.

Oh, you went there? That's really cool. A lot of the libraries in Paris contain manuscrips which bear witness to the same period in Mary's life. Her mission of province, for example, is specifically mentioned in a hym from the 600s, which can be found in the Acta Sanctorum, that's a research record, it was first issued in the 1700s by Jesuit Jean Bolland.

Mary's companions Mary-Salome and Mary Jacob are said to supposedly be buried there in the crypt of Les Saintes Maries which is in the Camargue. As a point of interest, before the church was built, the original church on the same spot was called Sanctae Mariae de Ratis. That was pre-9th century. Near the present middle part of it are the remains of a sculpture showing the Marys at sea.

Anyway. It's pretty cool that you went there.

It is a meeting point for masses of Gypsies each year. They carry an idol of Mary into the Mediterranean as part of their celebrations. .

 

[DOTR]

The Holy Grail is the cup Jesus drank from at the s Last Supper.

 

[Mindful]

Herefordshire?

What was it doing there?

The cup from which Jesus drank at the Last Supper stolen - Times of India

 

[xband]

Type Holy Grail in to any search machine......you don't need me to finish that sentence.

The sheer multiplicity of what any search engine throws up demonstrates that there is no clear consensus as to what the Grail is or was. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of people out there claiming to know its history, true meaning and even where to find it.

Modern authors, perhaps most (in)famously Dan Brown, offer new interpretations and, even when these are clearly and explicitly rooted in little more than imaginative fiction, they get picked up and bandied about as if a new scientific and irrefutable truth has been discovered. The Grail, though, will perhaps always eschew definition. But why?

The first known mention of a Grail (“un graal”) is made in a narrative spun by a 12th century writer of French romance, Chrétien de Troyes, who might reasonably be referred to as the Dan Brown of his day – though some scholars would argue that the quality of Chrétien’s writing far exceeds anything Brown has so far produced.

Chrétien’s Grail is mystical indeed – it is a dish, big and wide enough to take a salmon, that seems capable to delivering food and sustenance. To obtain the Grail requires asking a particular question at the Grail Castle. Unfortunately, the exact question (“Whom does the Grail serve?”) is only revealed after the Grail quester, the hapless Perceval, has missed the opportunity to ask it. It seems he is not quite ready, not quite mature enough, for the Grail.

What exactly is the Holy Grail – and why has its meaning eluded us for centuries?

The Holy Grail is the cup that Jesus and his Apostilles drank wine from at the Last Supper, including Judas. I still don't know who the Holy Ghost is and even religious scholars can not explain what or who that is to my satisfaction.

edit: A religious scholar once explained to me that the Holy Ghost is a non-entity that makes God's Will known on Earth which makes a little bit of sense.

 

[Mindful]

"The Grail," Langdon tells us in a scholarly voice that appears to echo the author's personal conviction, "is symbolic of the lost goddess. When Christianity came along, the old pagan religions did not die easily. Legends of chivalric quests for the Holy Grail were in fact stories of forbidden quests to find the lost sacred feminine. Knights who claimed to be 'searching for the chalice' were speaking in code as a way to protect themselves from a Church that had subjugated women, banished the Goddess, burned non-believers, and forbidden the pagan reverence for the sacred feminine." (The Da Vinci Code, pages 238-239)

And there is more. A woman's body is symbolically a container, and the most famous of these has a name every Christian will immediately recognize. Brown claims that the Holy Grail was actually Mary Magdalene. She was married to Jesus and was the vessel that bore his children.

"The Da Vinci Code" and the Jews

 

[Mindful]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

 

[Mindful]

Have been to many places in my "quest". 'Followed' the Romans from Sidi Bou Said all the way up through Europe. But never made it to Hadrian's Wall; and beyond.

But have never visited Rome. Who knows what lies in the vaults of the Vatican.

The Vatican surely has those vessels that Titus hauled away from that second temple, which he destroyed. The second temple being the replacement temple for the first one, which Nebuchadnezzar destroyed. This was actually documented on the Arch of Titus. Though, the Vatican denyies having them.

Anyway. I always think of Fergus and the Black Knight whenever I hear Hadrian's Wall mentioned.

Cool stuff, Mindful. There's hardly ever anything like this stuff discussed.

If you want to experience Jewish art, there's one unlikely place where you can find it: the Vatican.

 

[xband]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

 

[Mindful]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

 

[xband]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

 

[Mindful]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

 

[xband]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

Women and men stick together like glue or as President John Adams said like salt and pepper. Jesus was heterosexual and the LBGT community better get over it.

 

[Mindful]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

Women and men stick together like glue or as President John Adams said like salt and pepper. Jesus was heterosexual and the LBGT community better get over it.

Your analogies.


lol.

 

[xband]

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

A parable is similar if not exactly the same as an allegory as in the Allegory of the Cave by Plato in his famous work, The Republic.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

Women and men stick together like glue or as President John Adams said like salt and pepper. Jesus was heterosexual and the LBGT community better get over it.

Your analogies.


lol.

 

[xband]

Shacked up? lol.

Yes, I know about the Last Supper painting.

And I think there was a passage in the NewTestament which implied the disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene. And regarding her, no Jewish woman would been been wandering around on her own during those biblical times.

A parable is similar if not exactly the same as an allegory as in the Allegory of the Cave by Plato in his famous work, The Republic.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

Women and men stick together like glue or as President John Adams said like salt and pepper. Jesus was heterosexual and the LBGT community better get over it.

Your analogies.


lol.

I beg to disagree.

 

[Mindful]

A parable is similar if not exactly the same as an allegory as in the Allegory of the Cave by Plato in his famous work, The Republic.

Perhaps shacked up is not a good term and should have used common law wife. What is PC for shacked up in modern time?

They had common law wives in those days?

Women and men stick together like glue or as President John Adams said like salt and pepper. Jesus was heterosexual and the LBGT community better get over it.

Your analogies.


lol.

I beg to disagree.

No need to beg.

 

[OldLady]

^^ So Jesus was married! Well why shouldn't he have been? Reared as a Jew, celibacy would have almost certainly been an idea totally foreign to him. "Be fruitful and multiply" was the biblical creed that all Jews considered sacred. Celibacy as a Christian ideal wouldn't become law until the Council of Elvira (300-306) decreed (Canon 33): It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.

Christian scholars explain the reason: The Church wanted to insure that the wealth of its leadership would not be dissipated by way of family inheritance. A non-married clergy would always return their possessions to Rome.

Historians have pointed out the chilling effects of this doctrine. The "best and the brightest" were invariably encouraged to enter the prestigious life of the priesthood. That effectively condemned their genes to hereditary oblivion. Jews, on the other hand, turned those with the greatest intellectual potential to rabbinic lives of learning and teaching combined with an emphasis on large families. That, claims Will Durant in his classic The Lessons of History, is what in all probability accounts for the statistically unbelievable preponderance of Jewish Nobel Prize winners and achievements.

More troubling for Christians, a married Jesus is far too much a human figure instead of a god to be worshipped. Christianity can't conceive of their object of divine reverance as a sexual being -- or even as one conceived by the sexual act. It is a troublesome relationship with physical pleasure that turned Christian teachings away from their Jewish biblical source. But Jews have no problem with a married Moses. It is the Torah that Moses brought to us that not only commands marriage but calls it Kiddushin -- an ideal state of holiness.^^

Jesus shacked up with Mary Magdalene but never married her. Take a close look at the Last Supper by Leonardo de Vinci and the disciple commonly called John in reality is Mary Magdalene.

If you can go so far as to believe they were in a relationship, why stop there? Why do you believe they weren't married?

 

[there4eyeM]

Religion is not seeing the tree because of all the leaves.