What are the Charges?

Discussion in 'Law and Justice System' started by RetiredGySgt, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    We have a few People on this board demanding Impeachment. One of them even admits there are no specific charges but rather they want to Impeach to " investigate" the President.

    Impeachment REQUIRES that the House specify SPECIFIC charges against the Person to be impeached and that the Senate act as a court and determine the guilt or innocence on those charges. ( there is no provision for "investigating" in the process)

    So all you supporters of Impeachment, here is your chance... Provide a list of the CHARGES against Bush, against Cheney, against whom ever it is you think should be impeached.
     
  2. ReillyT
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    ReillyT Senior Member

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    I don't think they should be impeached, although I do think there are grounds.

    Primarily, I would base it upon the NSA wiretapping program that pretty clearly violates the 4th Amendment and an act of Congress (the FISA). In fact, the violation seems so obvious that I think one would have to say that the Adminstration knew they were violating the Constitution and chose to do it anyway.

    That said, I don't think they should be impeached.
     
  3. Vintij
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    Vintij Senior Member

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    You got it, the warrentless wiretapping pogram that does not follow the guidlines of the FISA would be the only legitimate chance at impeaching anyone from this administration. Though this case was already dismissed (ACLU v. NSA) In june of this year, it will resurface because of a conflict of interest with the ruling judge on the case, who happen to be a member of the ACLU. I guess she forgot to tell everyone?

    Plus there are many civil suits, claiming that civilians are being tapped who have no relation to foreign affairs (which is what the administration said this program would souly focus on). I still dont think there is enough evidence to impeach the president though, he has given himself enough power to classify his lunch menu in the white house. He may be a suspicious bastard, but there is nothing we can really do without congress taking some of that power away.
     
  4. ReillyT
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    ReillyT Senior Member

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    It is a different thing. The plaintiffs in the civil suits are out of luck because the specifics of any of the wiretaps are national security secrets. No plaintiff has the means to demonstrate that their phone was actually tapped, so no plaintiff can demonstrate standing to sue.

    However, the existence of the NSA program is no longer in dispute, and Gonzalez has admitted its existence. I think that should be sufficient grounds for impeachment proceedings. We don't need to know whose calls were specifically monitored to demonstrate a violation of the 4th Amendment and the FISA.

    Once again, I don't believe articles of impeachment should be brought on this basis, although I do think the Administration clearly and knowingly violated the Constitution (and FISA), and that this would be sufficient grounds for impeachment.
     
  5. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    Except for the pesky little fact that the "wiretaps" were all on incoming foreign calls and outgoing calls to foreign numbers that were already known to be related to terrorists, But hey don't let pesky little facts that foreigners are not covered by the Constitution bother you. Or the fact that if a citizen or legal resident were caught incriminating themselves on said tapes it could never be used in court. Thus no violation of anyones rights.
     
  6. ReillyT
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    ReillyT Senior Member

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    It doesn't matter who the calls were coming from or going to. The search (wiretap) itself is illegal. Perhaps if you were to know that the calls were going to/ coming from terrorists, that might be sufficient grounds for a warrant, but that does not excuse you from actually getting the warrant.

    The persons in the United States making or receiving the calls were citizens and residents. It doesn't matter that the person on the other end is a foreigner.

    That is not true. Just because evidence from an illegal search cannot be used against the party in court doesn't mean that the search itself was not illegal.
     
  7. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    And there are those that disagree with you.
     
  8. ReillyT
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    ReillyT Senior Member

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    That was a brilliant piece of argument. You asked what the charges for impeaching Bush might consist of, and I gave you one (although I don't favor impeachment).

    Why aren't you thanking me?
     
  9. Paulie
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    Paulie Platinum Member

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    Sarge, how can you condone the fact that Bush and Cheney have banned anyone in their circle of knowledge, including themselves, from submitting to subpeonas and testifying to congress?

    What are they so afraid of congress hearing from these people?

    Maybe if some of these people were allowed to testify, there would be some new information we haven't yet heard...wouldn't you like to hear from the people directly involved with the people who so many American's feel should be impeached? Maybe they have some information that could lead to possible charges being filed! Who the fuck knows!

    If someone were accused of shooting someone else to death, but was not yet charged, and they blatantly prohibited a potential witness, via coercision, to not talk to police investigators, that would make that person look extremely guilty...what do you have to hide if you are innocent?

    I'd say that blatant disregard for congress is a damn good place to start filing charges.
     
  10. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    Strawman. The Congress is on a witch hunt, facts do not matter, Libby proves that perfectly. The three branches of Government are independent and have seperate powers. Bush is simply enforcing that fact. He has offered on more than one occasion to allow everyone to tell Congress anything they want, so long as the threat of perjury is removed, and with good cause, Libby got railroaded by just that function.

    He has NOT said Congress could not use the information gained as required, he has asserted the rights and powers of the Executive Branch over the legislative Branch, and he has done so because of crap like the conviction of Libby. Libby talked and for his trouble he was charged and convicted of perjury.

    But hey keep believeing what you want. I am waiting for some charges to Impeach on, seems your fresh out.
     

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