Water-Boarding works

[Mr. P]

Depends on what your definition of "works" is.

If it means that it promotes the abject humiliation of the detainee and prompts confessions to everything including the last Ice Age, then yes, it works.

If it means that it promotes the collection of useful information about the enemy that may shorten a conflict or save the lives of the Forces of Good, the answer is no, it does not work.

There is a reason why in the United States we have developed a tradition that does not recognize coerced confessions and that is that coerced testimony has NO PROBATIVE VALUE WHATSOEVER.

Deprived of oxygen, I will GLADLY admit to having shot JFK, to have killed JonBenet Ramsey, to have left ice cream in OJ's garage and kidnapped the Lindburg baby. So what? Of what earthly benefit is my confession to anyone? In point of fact, it only serves to divert critical manpower AWAY from the search for the very information my coerced confession obscures.

One can analogize to the movie Dirty Harry, in which our intrepid Lieutenant Callahan stomps on Scorpio's broken leg in a desparate attempt to save the life of poor Mary Ann Deegan, buried alive somewhere and with only 9 fingers left. In that scenario, even bleeding heart, wine swilling liberals like me can understand Callahan's provocation and give a measure of respect to his actions. He is dealing with minutes if not seconds.

Our national policy is justified in just such a fashion - there could be a terrorist plot ready to strike the heartland at this very hour! But that justification looks pretty foolish, does it not, more than 5 YEARS post 9/11?

Emergency often does require extraordinary procedures. But how long will this emergency last? As long as the Berlin Wall? As long as the Soviet Union? As long as the last Ice Age?

One also has to consider our standing in the world community. Our barbaritry with our detainees has probably had MORE to do with our diminished standing in that community - with a concommitant diminution of our POWER in the world community, than any other incident of US policy in the past 5 years.

The cost is too great for rewards that are illusory. Its time to reclaim our humanity. If for no other reason than to retake the moral high ground against the time when some of OUR soldiers are subjected to the same atrocities. Blackhawk Down, anyone?

Without a doubt you have the liberal Anti talking points down to a T.

Maybe you could start a thread and explain how mixing civil/criminal procedure in this Country has anything to do with War. Shall we extend ALL rights and procedures available to our “citizens” to our enemies? Why? I look forward to your new thread.

 

[CSM]

...
One also has to consider our standing in the world community. Our barbaritry with our detainees has probably had MORE to do with our diminished standing in that community - with a concommitant diminution of our POWER in the world community, than any other incident of US policy in the past 5 years.

Barbaritry???? I suspect that our "barbaritry" pales in comparison to that of the terrorists...in fact, I KNOW it does. Our diminishment in that community has more to do with the treasonous support given by some of our own citizens and allies, IMO.

The cost is too great for rewards that are illusory. Its time to reclaim our humanity. If for no other reason than to retake the moral high ground against the time when some of OUR soldiers are subjected to the same atrocities. Blackhawk Down, anyone?

I know, "it's too hard" and "we should quit". I got news for you, our soldiers have seldom received fair treatment from our adversaries... not the Germans, not the Japanese and not the terrorists. You can keep your moral high ground...I am sure they will be of great comfort to you when you are living under an Islamic despot.

Well, you got the liberal, anti-war spiel down pretty well. I can't wait to see what you want to do with my tax money and eagerly await your "I hate Bush" rant in other threads.

 

[Mr. P]

Thanks Mr. P...you didn't have to do that. I went through similar training...not much fun really.

....

I know, and it is poorly written too. I just did it.

 

[deaddude]

My grand father was a doctor in the Japanese theatre of WWII. Died before I was born. My father however passed on a few stories. One was a story about the brutal dicipline of Gurkha mercs. Apparently a Japanese POW camp was captured and among the prisoners were four Gurkha mercs. Like many POWs they had been subjected to torture during interrogation. One cracked and told a single largely insignificant detail. The Gurkhas were later sent home after recieving medical attention. Only three got off the plane.

 

[MGB]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Please see my signature line.

 

[Mr. P]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Please see my signature line.

Start a thread Mr. Open minded, let see how open you are.:gang1:

 

[CSM]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Please see my signature line.

LOL...glad you feel the heat.

As to your sig...I think it is rather presumtious and borders on arrogant. In fact, it tells me you came to this board with preconceived notions, so why are you surprised?

 

[Gunny]

Depends on what your definition of "works" is.

If it means that it promotes the abject humiliation of the detainee and prompts confessions to everything including the last Ice Age, then yes, it works.

If it means that it promotes the collection of useful information about the enemy that may shorten a conflict or save the lives of the Forces of Good, the answer is no, it does not work.

There is a reason why in the United States we have developed a tradition that does not recognize coerced confessions and that is that coerced testimony has NO PROBATIVE VALUE WHATSOEVER.

Deprived of oxygen, I will GLADLY admit to having shot JFK, to have killed JonBenet Ramsey, to have left ice cream in OJ's garage and kidnapped the Lindburg baby. So what? Of what earthly benefit is my confession to anyone? In point of fact, it only serves to divert critical manpower AWAY from the search for the very information my coerced confession obscures.

One can analogize to the movie Dirty Harry, in which our intrepid Lieutenant Callahan stomps on Scorpio's broken leg in a desparate attempt to save the life of poor Mary Ann Deegan, buried alive somewhere and with only 9 fingers left. In that scenario, even bleeding heart, wine swilling liberals like me can understand Callahan's provocation and give a measure of respect to his actions. He is dealing with minutes if not seconds.

Our national policy is justified in just such a fashion - there could be a terrorist plot ready to strike the heartland at this very hour! But that justification looks pretty foolish, does it not, more than 5 YEARS post 9/11?

Emergency often does require extraordinary procedures. But how long will this emergency last? As long as the Berlin Wall? As long as the Soviet Union? As long as the last Ice Age?

One also has to consider our standing in the world community. Our barbaritry with our detainees has probably had MORE to do with our diminished standing in that community - with a concommitant diminution of our POWER in the world community, than any other incident of US policy in the past 5 years.

The cost is too great for rewards that are illusory. Its time to reclaim our humanity. If for no other reason than to retake the moral high ground against the time when some of OUR soldiers are subjected to the same atrocities. Blackhawk Down, anyone?

You sure took a long time to go about telling us you're yet another loony liberal out of touch with reality come to educate us ignorant, redneck conservatives.

I'll try to make my response shorter ...

Just about everything you posted is one-sided hogwash.

 

[Gunny]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Please see my signature line.

Rather delusional and hypocritical signature for such a one-sided point of view.

 

[MGB]

Ummmm.....you lads are troubled by an imprecation to keep an open mind? THAT is fucking scary.......

So....the message you are sending me is that you are HAPPY with your closemindedness? Incredibly stupid if that is true. Enjoy your ignorance, boys. God knows you wear it well......:tdown2:

 

[dilloduck]

Ummmm.....you lads are troubled by an imprecation to keep an open mind? THAT is fucking scary.......

So....the message you are sending me is that you are HAPPY with your closemindedness? Incredibly stupid if that is true. Enjoy your ignorance, boys. God knows you wear it well......:tdown2:

Care to take a shot at my question in the politics thread oh open minded one?

 

[Said1]

Ummmm.....you lads are troubled by an imprecation to keep an open mind? THAT is fucking scary.......

So....the message you are sending me is that you are HAPPY with your closemindedness? Incredibly stupid if that is true. Enjoy your ignorance, boys. God knows you wear it well......:tdown2:

In this thread, what is everyone supposed to be open minded about, including yourself?

 

[Gunny]

Ummmm.....you lads are troubled by an imprecation to keep an open mind? THAT is fucking scary.......

So....the message you are sending me is that you are HAPPY with your closemindedness? Incredibly stupid if that is true. Enjoy your ignorance, boys. God knows you wear it well......:tdown2:

Do you do anything original? Declaring your open-mindedness while declaring anyone who doesn't agree with you closedminded is as simple as a liberal ploy as there is.

When I see proof of an open mind, I'll reassess my opinion. So far though, all you've done is parrot the rhetoric of one side.

 

[manu1959]

In this thread, what is everyone supposed to be open minded about, including yourself?

being from the land of blue that worships the blow job years .... you are considered open minded if you agree with them

 

[MGB]

liberal ploy

See? That's the part I have trouble with. You don't know me, but you have assigned me to a pigeonhole where you can dismiss me as someone who has nothing valuable to say simply by assigning the term "liberal" to me.

Do you KNOW what the word "liberal" means? It means someone who believes that a nation's sovereignty resides in its people and not in its government. It connotes one who rejects monarchy in particular and domination of the people by their government in general. So, in that sense, I AM a liberal, as were the folks who wrote the Declaration and the Constitution. I subscribe to the theories of Locke and Voltaire, of Mill and Rousseau, the writers who dared create the intellectual basis for the idea that the people are the owners of a country, not their leaders.

And so, by slapping that epithet on me, what, pray tell, does that make YOU?!?!?:scratch:

 

[trobinett]

liberal ploy

See? That's the part I have trouble with. You don't know me, but you have assigned me to a pigeonhole where you can dismiss me as someone who has nothing valuable to say simply by assigning the term "liberal" to me.

Do you KNOW what the word "liberal" means? It means someone who believes that a nation's sovereignty resides in its people and not in its government. It connotes one who rejects monarchy in particular and domination of the people by their government in general. So, in that sense, I AM a liberal, as were the folks who wrote the Declaration and the Constitution. I subscribe to the theories of Locke and Voltaire, of Mill and Rousseau, the writers who dared create the intellectual basis for the idea that the people are the owners of a country, not their leaders.

And so, by slapping that epithet on me, what, pray tell, does that make YOU?!?!?:scratch:

A conservative?

Historians Will and Ariel Durant describe conservative philosophy as "defending the necessity of religion, the wisdom of tradition, the authority of the family, the advantages of legitimate monarchy, and the constant need to maintain political, moral, and economic dikes against the ever-swelling sea of popular ignorance, cupidity, violence, barbarism, and fertility."

 

[MtnBiker]

 

[MGB]

I'm a little puzzled by the reaction, or possibly over-reaction to my "open mind" statement. All of us have prejudices and assumptions that impact our daily lives (See "Blink" for an excellent discussion of the worth of such prejudices and assumptions) but I make a conscious attempt to give a respectul hearing to anyone who cares to interact with me. Perhaps I fail at doing so from time to time, but I interact on a daily basis with people from all classes and social situations and I treat them all with dignity and respect - unless and until they demonstrate they are undeserving of such treatment.

Since starting to post here, I find there is a strong tendency to attack the person rather than the idea, which is the antithesis of rational discourse.

Of course, rational discourse may NOT be what some members are interested in. :firing:

 

[Mr. P]

I'm a little puzzled by the reaction, or possibly over-reaction to my "open mind" statement. All of us have prejudices and assumptions that impact our daily lives (See "Blink" for an excellent discussion of the worth of such prejudices and assumptions) but I make a conscious attempt to give a respectul hearing to anyone who cares to interact with me. Perhaps I fail at doing so from time to time, but I interact on a daily basis with people from all classes and social situations and I treat them all with dignity and respect - unless and until they demonstrate they are undeserving of such treatment.

Since starting to post here, I find there is a strong tendency to attack the person rather than the idea, which is the antithesis of rational discourse.

Of course, rational discourse may NOT be what some members are interested in. :firing:

If that where true you would have started a new thread as I asked you to, instead of hijacking this one.

 

[MGB]

Oops. Sorry. I'll go to my room now.