Want insurance that covers acupuncture and chiropractors?

[Quantum Windbag]

And states could mandate insurers cover those procedures even before the ACA was passed.

How many states could actually force people to buy insurance before Obamacare?

All 50 could. States have plenary power. Only Massachusetts was actually doing it. Of course, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about state requirements on what insurance policies cover, which every state has.

No they couldn't, only one state actually had the power to force people to buy insurance.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Acupuncturists and chiropractors are snake-oil salesmen, but it doesn't follow that since those services should be in the minimum benefits package, there shouldn't be a minimum benefits package.

It's like saying we should disband the FDA because homeopathic remedies aren't in it's jurisdiction.

Feel free to point out where I said anything about insurance not having a minimum level of coverage.

Nice strawman though.

That's exactly what you're railing against in this thread. You don't like what certain states are including in their minimum level of coverage.

Really? Care to point out where? I have repeatedly attacked the idea that people can be forced to pay for magical thinking in this thread, I have not once raised the issue of being forced to buy insurance because I wanted to concentrate on this particular absurdity. In fact, as far as I know, you are the first person who responded to this thread that even raised the issue, and that was nothing more than an attempt to make me look partisan.

You failed because you assumed I am as stupid as you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Tonosynovitus and tendinitis are not the same thing, which is why I prefer to go to people that study science over magic.

QW.....i will say it again.....its hard to call a guy a "Quack" who has cleared up things that the "REAL" Doctors were totally inept at curing.....some of your "Doctors" seem to be Quacks themselves......just saying.....for back and joint related things .....ill go to the Chiropractor first.....

It's your body and your prerogative. I don't see the point of getting into an argument with someone about a treatment modality they feel is beneficial, as long as that treatment is generally safe and the patient is aware of the risks and benefits.

I also don't really see why someone else would care what your insurance covers. It's like people who bitch about their tax dollars covering abortions but are okay with my tax dollars covering wars I feel are completely unethical.

It's just not realistic to expect that you are going to be 100% happy with your tax burden. Furthermore, the money that the average person pays in taxes is such a miniscule amount next to the whole, that it's pretty retarded to act like you are Daddy Warbucks subsidizing everyone elses idiocy.

I don't care what his insurance covers. I don't even care if people want to buy insurance to get treated for Scientology. What I care about is the absurdity of idiots saying I have to have insurance that covers other people's religious beliefs.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No. I don't believe in any of those things. What I do believe is that you are making a mountain out of a molehill to bitch about something that is only proximately related.

I don't want to be forced to buy insurance that supports magic. If I had know there were this many creationists that support Obamacare I might have approached the subject differently, I honestly thought progressives that love science over magic would understand the issues.

I encounter a lot of people that have a lot of, to say the least, strange healthcare beliefs. I got exposed to Pertussis the other day. Why do you think that happened? In part, because people now fear vaccination more than the disease. I guaran-fuckin-tee you that some of these blunderheads would watch their kids die of whooping cough and still not make the connection. I am still not going to ridicule actual patients for this.

At any rate, in Medical School, you lean no to ridicule people for their beliefs or misconceptions. You try and teach and educate when you can.

If someone get's benefit from chiropractic, even though there isn't a lot of evidence based medicine to support it and even if it is placebo effect and as long as they are aware of the risks behind some of the maneuvers (HVLA), then who am I to criticize it? My job is to facilitate treatment. Not hinder it through being an arrogant asshole.

I am not a doctor, I get to ridicule anyone I want, including idiots who but their religion over science. To be honest, I would rather have a doctor who called me an idiot for thinking alternative medicine might cure me than one like Doctor Oz who teaches people that doctors who reject fantasy are the ones who are wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

QW.....i will say it again.....its hard to call a guy a "Quack" who has cleared up things that the "REAL" Doctors were totally inept at curing.....some of your "Doctors" seem to be Quacks themselves......just saying.....for back and joint related things .....ill go to the Chiropractor first.....

If someone has untreatable cancer and is told he is going to die in six months, goes to a witch doctor in Africa who chants at him in ancient mumbletypeg, and he goes into remission, does that make the witch doctor legitimate?

QW.....you cant have a conversation with you on this.....its comparable to talking to Dean about Republicans.....Chiropractors to you are bad even though they do countless good for a hell of a lot of people....it doesnt matter.....they are Quacks.....

I did not say they are bad, I said they are quacks. The thing is, even quacks occasionally help people, that is no reason to assume they should be teaching doctors how to treat patients.

 

[Too Tall]

Why pay for something that you never use? Do you make a habit of buying things and never using them? Isn't that really stupid? Or are you going to try and argue you don't pay for it?

I have car insurance and have never used it. The reason for insurance is to protect against the possibility of loss. Besides, it is a state law that I carry liability insurance if I want to get a drivers license.

The purpose of insurance is to transfer risk, not cover routine expenses.

I buy insurance to cover any loss I may incur under the terms of the policy. It has nothing to do with routine expenses, and I did use the word reason, not purpose.

 

[Polk]

What about individual plans, the ones that are seeing that largest premium incresases as a result of the new requirements to cover things instead of allowing people to make their own decisions? What about small businesses that elect to buy smaller plans instead of the more expensive comprehensive plans that are now the only choice? Do you honestly think more people work at companies that offer cadillac plans that cover voodoo than work for companies that offer more realistic coverage? Isn't that part of the reason that Obamacare mandate that plans have minimum coverage standards?

Now you're trying to change what you said. Your original claim was that most plans don't cover it. Now you want to change it to say most plans purchased by certain subsets of the market don't cover it (I doubt that's true either, but it would have been a more defensible claim).

I suggest you go back and read what I said, which was that most people are smart enough not to buy insurance that covers magic.

Given the reaction to this thread, I was probably wrong, but I still think it is absurd.

That's not what you said. You said that most plans don't cover it, not that most people don't want it.

 

[Polk]

How many states could actually force people to buy insurance before Obamacare?

All 50 could. States have plenary power. Only Massachusetts was actually doing it. Of course, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about state requirements on what insurance policies cover, which every state has.

No they couldn't, only one state actually had the power to force people to buy insurance.

Every state had (and still has) that power. They just chose to not exercise it.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I don't want to be forced to buy insurance that supports magic. If I had know there were this many creationists that support Obamacare I might have approached the subject differently, I honestly thought progressives that love science over magic would understand the issues.

I want what works and allopathic medicine does not work for everything. Where it shines is trauma. But, for many other things, other disciplines work as well or better.

I used to be just as ignorant and closed minded as you are now but had several experiences that I simply could not explain away. It was a real eye-opener. Maybe you can find insurance that is as ignorant and closed minded as you are.

Really.

Its worth a try.

What about the insurance you currently have? Do they cover other disciplines? If so, you're paying for it.

The comment above about allopathic doctors not being open to other disciplines - That's changing, little by little. I had surgery two years ago and the surgeon prescribed Arnica beforehand. I just about fell on the floor and had to give him a bit of a hard time about it. He ended up getting a couple of books to learn more.

Someone above said that chiropractic and physical therapy are the same. Actually, they're not even close.

Science doesn't work for everything? Do you also want me to consider the possibility that Young Earth Creationism is right when I run into the fact that the science of abiogenesis cannot actually explain the beginning of life?

My point is I don't want doctors to give up on science, nor do I want the government to force me to believe in your stupid religion.

No, of course not. But, in your ignorance, you appear to be ASSSuming that other medical disciplines are not science based.

Nope, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't really care and you don't want to educate yourself.

I have never even hinted that someone else should agree with my religious beliefs. You're not just willfully and proudly ignorant, you're just another lying rw.

 

[Harry Dresden]

If someone has untreatable cancer and is told he is going to die in six months, goes to a witch doctor in Africa who chants at him in ancient mumbletypeg, and he goes into remission, does that make the witch doctor legitimate?

QW.....you cant have a conversation with you on this.....its comparable to talking to Dean about Republicans.....Chiropractors to you are bad even though they do countless good for a hell of a lot of people....it doesnt matter.....they are Quacks.....

I did not say they are bad, I said they are quacks. The thing is, even quacks occasionally help people, that is no reason to assume they should be teaching doctors how to treat patients.

i think it means the same thing.....and i think you will find that Chiropractors help more than the "occasional" few......and i never said they should teach Doctors anything.....but many Doctors are pretty close minded.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

I want what works and allopathic medicine does not work for everything. Where it shines is trauma. But, for many other things, other disciplines work as well or better.

I used to be just as ignorant and closed minded as you are now but had several experiences that I simply could not explain away. It was a real eye-opener. Maybe you can find insurance that is as ignorant and closed minded as you are.

Really.

Its worth a try.

What about the insurance you currently have? Do they cover other disciplines? If so, you're paying for it.

The comment above about allopathic doctors not being open to other disciplines - That's changing, little by little. I had surgery two years ago and the surgeon prescribed Arnica beforehand. I just about fell on the floor and had to give him a bit of a hard time about it. He ended up getting a couple of books to learn more.

Someone above said that chiropractic and physical therapy are the same. Actually, they're not even close.

Science doesn't work for everything? Do you also want me to consider the possibility that Young Earth Creationism is right when I run into the fact that the science of abiogenesis cannot actually explain the beginning of life?

My point is I don't want doctors to give up on science, nor do I want the government to force me to believe in your stupid religion.

No, of course not. But, in your ignorance, you appear to be ASSSuming that other medical disciplines are not science based.

Nope, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't really care and you don't want to educate yourself.

I have never even hinted that someone else should agree with my religious beliefs. You're not just willfully and proudly ignorant, you're just another lying rw.

everything has got to about Right Wingers with you Dudley.......can you imagine in that little Geriatric addled Brain of yours how many "lw's" feel just like QW does about Alternative Medicine?....especially Chiropractors?.....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have car insurance and have never used it. The reason for insurance is to protect against the possibility of loss. Besides, it is a state law that I carry liability insurance if I want to get a drivers license.

The purpose of insurance is to transfer risk, not cover routine expenses.

I buy insurance to cover any loss I may incur under the terms of the policy. It has nothing to do with routine expenses, and I did use the word reason, not purpose.

The purpose of insurance is to transfer risk. If you use insurance to avoid paying expenses that you normally incur you are a fool because you end up paying more for those than you would if you simply paid out of pocket. There are a lot of people that do not understand this, and this has distorted the costs associated with health care.

You can choose to continue living your life believing that insurance saves you money by paying for normal expenses, or you can reality and actually spend less.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now you're trying to change what you said. Your original claim was that most plans don't cover it. Now you want to change it to say most plans purchased by certain subsets of the market don't cover it (I doubt that's true either, but it would have been a more defensible claim).

I suggest you go back and read what I said, which was that most people are smart enough not to buy insurance that covers magic.

Given the reaction to this thread, I was probably wrong, but I still think it is absurd.

That's not what you said. You said that most plans don't cover it, not that most people don't want it.

You should have no problem proving that if that is what I said, should you?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All 50 could. States have plenary power. Only Massachusetts was actually doing it. Of course, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about state requirements on what insurance policies cover, which every state has.

No they couldn't, only one state actually had the power to force people to buy insurance.

Every state had (and still has) that power. They just chose to not exercise it.

Every state has that power? Care to prove that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I want what works and allopathic medicine does not work for everything. Where it shines is trauma. But, for many other things, other disciplines work as well or better.

I used to be just as ignorant and closed minded as you are now but had several experiences that I simply could not explain away. It was a real eye-opener. Maybe you can find insurance that is as ignorant and closed minded as you are.

Really.

Its worth a try.

What about the insurance you currently have? Do they cover other disciplines? If so, you're paying for it.

The comment above about allopathic doctors not being open to other disciplines - That's changing, little by little. I had surgery two years ago and the surgeon prescribed Arnica beforehand. I just about fell on the floor and had to give him a bit of a hard time about it. He ended up getting a couple of books to learn more.

Someone above said that chiropractic and physical therapy are the same. Actually, they're not even close.

Science doesn't work for everything? Do you also want me to consider the possibility that Young Earth Creationism is right when I run into the fact that the science of abiogenesis cannot actually explain the beginning of life?

My point is I don't want doctors to give up on science, nor do I want the government to force me to believe in your stupid religion.

No, of course not. But, in your ignorance, you appear to be ASSSuming that other medical disciplines are not science based.

Nope, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't really care and you don't want to educate yourself.

I have never even hinted that someone else should agree with my religious beliefs. You're not just willfully and proudly ignorant, you're just another lying rw.

I am not assuming anything, I know for a fact they are not science based, just like I know for a fact that Young Earth Creationism is not science based. Can I find pseudo science studies that support non science based medicine? Of course I can, feel free to post as many as you like so I can debunk every single one of them. I suggest you educate yourself on the reality of the pseudo science you have been deluded by.

Science-Based Medicine » The CAM Docket: Boiron III, et al.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

QW.....you cant have a conversation with you on this.....its comparable to talking to Dean about Republicans.....Chiropractors to you are bad even though they do countless good for a hell of a lot of people....it doesnt matter.....they are Quacks.....

I did not say they are bad, I said they are quacks. The thing is, even quacks occasionally help people, that is no reason to assume they should be teaching doctors how to treat patients.

i think it means the same thing.....and i think you will find that Chiropractors help more than the "occasional" few......and i never said they should teach Doctors anything.....but many Doctors are pretty close minded.....

I think that, if that was true, you would have no trouble providing scientific studies that demonstrate the overall efficacy of chiropractic treatment. Feel free to provide the evidence that proves me wrong.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I did not say they are bad, I said they are quacks. The thing is, even quacks occasionally help people, that is no reason to assume they should be teaching doctors how to treat patients.

i think it means the same thing.....and i think you will find that Chiropractors help more than the "occasional" few......and i never said they should teach Doctors anything.....but many Doctors are pretty close minded.....

I think that, if that was true, you would have no trouble providing scientific studies that demonstrate the overall efficacy of chiropractic treatment. Feel free to provide the evidence that proves me wrong.

QW.....i dont give a fuck what the Scientist believe about Chiropractors......a Chiropractor has cured my ills that the Doctors could not,and they had first crack at me......so am i supposed to believe the guy who actually helped is a "Quack?"......if i get ill i will go to the Doctor.....if i have a back or hip problem.....i will go to the guy who will actually do some good.....the Chiropractor.....

 

[Polk]

I suggest you go back and read what I said, which was that most people are smart enough not to buy insurance that covers magic.

Given the reaction to this thread, I was probably wrong, but I still think it is absurd.

That's not what you said. You said that most plans don't cover it, not that most people don't want it.

You should have no problem proving that if that is what I said, should you?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6469442-post8.html

most people already have insurance that covers acupuncture and chiropractic.

your point?

No they don't, most people are smart enough not to buy insurance that covers magical thinking.

I don't know if I should be more offended by the brazen lie, or that you figured I'd be too lazy to look back a few pages to find the proof.

 

[Polk]

No they couldn't, only one state actually had the power to force people to buy insurance.

Every state had (and still has) that power. They just chose to not exercise it.

Every state has that power? Care to prove that?

Tenth Amendment is a good place to start: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Science doesn't work for everything? Do you also want me to consider the possibility that Young Earth Creationism is right when I run into the fact that the science of abiogenesis cannot actually explain the beginning of life?

My point is I don't want doctors to give up on science, nor do I want the government to force me to believe in your stupid religion.

No, of course not. But, in your ignorance, you appear to be ASSSuming that other medical disciplines are not science based.

Nope, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't really care and you don't want to educate yourself.

I have never even hinted that someone else should agree with my religious beliefs. You're not just willfully and proudly ignorant, you're just another lying rw.

everything has got to about Right Wingers with you Dudley.......can you imagine in that little Geriatric addled Brain of yours how many "lw's" feel just like QW does about Alternative Medicine?....especially Chiropractors?.....

Actually, I agree with you. This is not a right/left issue and I apologize.

I've cut way back on posting here because I don't like what I become when I read and post here. I don't use foul language or call people nasty names in real life or any other place on line. Nor did I use this language when I first came here. IMO, its very much a symptom of what we see in Washington and in other areas of our lives.

What is normal here is trolling on any other board and I fall right into it.

That's my weakness, my fault and its my responsibility to be true to myself and clean up my language.