Vote Fraud Allegations Gathers Steam

[Mr. P]

Bush failed to do his job, he failed to protect America, and today his misguided foreign policy is creating even greater risk for our nation and people.


A

Really? How so?...I'm sure you have credible links to prove your claims.
Please be specific.

ps...your sinking fast here.

 

[UsaPride]

Okay, blinders off. What were you expecting me to see there?

Excuses? They're reasons! You're making wild claims and we're supposed to except, people there gave good reasons and you're calling them excuses.

If you're an American state your opinion clearly - and if it's dissent, so be it. Only a mindless drone would kowtow in blind obedience to a leader without questioning his actions.

Nobody here "kowtow"s to Bush. There's many people here who don't agree with him on many different policies. But we don't stand idly by while left wing liberals come on and sling insults at him for no reason other than to stir trouble.

Did you guys kowtow to Clinton? Give him your undying support? No? Then the word hypocrite springs to mind.

No, a hypocrite would be slinging all the mud at Clinton and then get pissed when it's done to Bush. I didn't support Clinton and I never spread lies about him either. What the left has done in these past (at least) 3 years is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. I had never seen any kind of group totally lose their minds and act the way those have done. It's ridiculous!

Not all the left are hate mongering asses, and they are just fed up with attacks from the right all these years.

This sentence right here PROVES you, Sir, are no conservative! The attacks from the right all these years, my ass!!

Don't. I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in god. I don't accept your "prayers", and I consider it an insult that you would project your religion onto me.

So sad!!

 

[007]

Really? How so?...I'm sure you have credible links to prove your claims.
Please be specific.

ps...your sinking fast here.

No kidding Mr. P, even I'm waiting for this one. "Misguided", "at greater risk"? Funny how I feel more secure since we "reelected" President Bush. I know he's not some spineless, apologizing, sniveling, yellow bellied liberal who's soft on terrorist. He's "PROVED" it. So yeah, I'm real interested to know how I'm "at greater risk".

But frankly, I don't expect to see anything that will substantiate that, since there isn't anything. But maybe some liberal bunk this hollywierd gapper might dig up somewhere. Maybe on michaelmoore.com.

This idiot is nothing more than one more frothing at the mouth sore looser Bush hating liberal. It's perfectly clear with the tone of his posts here.

 

[Mr. P]

No kidding Mr. P, even I'm waiting for this one. "Misguided", "at greater risk"? Funny how I feel more secure since we "reelected" President Bush. I know he's not some spineless, apologizing, sniveling, yellow bellied liberal who soft on terrorist. He's "PROVED" it. So yeah, I'm real interested to know how I'm "at greater risk".

But frankly, I don't expect to see anything that will substantiate that, since there isn't anything. But maybe some liberal bunk this hollywierd gapper might dig up somewhere. Maybe on michaelmoore.com.

This idiot is nothing more than one more frothing at the mouth sore looser Bush hating liberals. It's perfectly clear with the tone of his posts here.

Maybe...just maybe..he has something other than the old BS...
But I doubt it. He's exposed himself in all his naked left-wing liberal .
I can wait for the links I ask for...
After all it's been 4 years.

 

[Zhukov]

Don't. I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in god. I don't accept your "prayers", and I consider it an insult that you would project your religion onto me.

Hahaha.

It's hard to sleep here in Los Angeles knowing that N. Korea has missiles capable of striking us.

1.) Do you really think Kim is stupid enough to launch a nuclear missile against the continental United States?
2.) Do you support the development and construction of anti-ballisitic missile platforms?

 

[krisy]

Yes, I had been planning a series of articles on Kerry's civil liberty related failings had he won. The issue is moot now, though. If there were mainstream discussion of vote fraud had Kerry won, I would have been discussing that too.




Polls never ask everyone - polls ask a statistically significant random sample.

Having done my share of focus groups and audience research, we know that with a random sample one can get results within a very narrow margin of error. I won't get pedantic on the methodology, but for a margin of error of plus or minus 3 points, you need a random sample of around 1500

See:

http://whyfiles.org/009poll/math_primer.html

http://www.questaresearch.com/calc_conf_int_prn.php?percentage=true

So, it's unlikely that you or anyone you know personally will have encountered a pollster.

To be accurate, the polls need to be "true random", which meant that people are selected by some mathematical standard, such as every 10th person out the door, etc. Judgment cannot be used as it will taint the results.

In the case of exit polls, it is equally important that precincts be chosen randomly, or else choosing certain geographic areas over others will also result in statistical inaccuracies.

People who say the polls are wrong are claiming that the pollsters were unprofessional and had personal agendas. It's useful to point out though that exit polls are conducted by two separate and highly respected, professional polling firms.



Regards,


Andy

Even so,pollsters are human. I even saw news reports that some polls consistently go one way ot the other.Most had the two in a neck and neck race,but some always showed Kerry the winner. That to me says there is interference of bias.

That brings me to my other question. You seem to be pretty worried about the "7 minutes". Have you watched Farenhype 911? Have you read "Bias" or "Arrogance" by Brenard Goldberg? You will see that it's 5 minutes,not 7 if you watch Farenhype 911. That is a silly issue anyway though. But a lot of other things were horrible about MM's movie. If you truly have an open mind,it might change. He did some awful things,like putting a soldier that had lost him limbs in the movie when he didn't want to be there. Now that's respect.


As far as Fox news goes,how can you believe they are so right wing? Is it just because their owner is a right winger? Do they not always have BOTH sides? As far as their programing. They have Bill O'Reilly-Independent.Hannity and Colmes-Dem and Rep,Gretta-well,she's just Gretta Van Peterson anymore(Scott Peterson that is). I think it's a fair line up. To say Fox news isn't fair,well that's like saying CNN is fair!!

 

[007]

May GOD have mercy on your soul CL.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ok. CivilLiberty. You've been gallivanting around here like an ape drunk on Robitussin, insulting, and belitlling us. Well, the buck stops now.

I'll give you all the bullet points you need for your alleged article.

You mentioned in a post that you're suprised about our "isolation" from liberals here. This is due to us beating them senseless with their own vacuous, mind-numbed, "Blue-state" arguments. They can't take the heat for too long.

Answer me a couple sensible questions, BlueStateAndy (BSA),

Do you believe Jihadist islam is a threat to the western world?

Do you believe the UN nations being bribed by Saddam had their their votes in the security council affected by this illicit income?

Do you believe CBS's willingness to run forged documents during an election but unwillingess to diclose the results of the investigation into the forgeries for fear of affecting the election indicates consistency or negligent/ borderline criminal professional misconduct?

 

[jimnyc]

Don't. I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in god. I don't accept your "prayers", and I consider it an insult that you would project your religion onto me.

You have such a high IQ and such an impressive resume and you think praying is soleley for Christians? How pathetic.

 

[Zhukov]

This is a pretty good example of what I said about other atheists in another thread.

First notice the insecurity associated with such a comment. People can pray for me all they want, I don't care. It doesn't bother me, and I'm certainly not insulted by it, because I understand where it comes from.

Second, the intial leap at Christianity. Sure this is America, and this a consevative board, so it's a fair bet anyone offering prayer is a Christian. But then why even acknowledge it? Why not just say, 'I'm not religious'?

Insecurity combined with latent hatred/fear of Christianity. I give you the modern secular atheist.

 

[musicman]

This is a pretty good example of what I said about other atheists in another thread.

First notice the insecurity associated with such a comment. People can pray for me all they want, I don't care. It doesn't bother me, and I'm certainly not insulted by it, because I understand where it comes from.

Second, the intial leap at Christianity. Sure this is America, and this a consevative board, so it's a fair bet anyone offering prayer is a Christian. But then why even acknowledge it? Why not just say, 'I'm not religious'?

Insecurity combined with latent hatred/fear of Christianity. I give you the modern secular atheist.

Bingo!

Methinks the liberal doth protest too much.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Methinks the liberal is no account, slackjawed, walleyed, two bit, horse thieven, knuckledruggin, numbskull.

 

[sagegirl]

civil: Your comments have value. There are all kinds of opinions here, and no matter where you stand on a issue sooner or later you find yourself agreeing with somebody in spite of yourself. It is difficult for us here, to find that centerist balance and I dont know where it is in our congress, and among other policy making orgs. When votes go straight down party lines and app'ts reflect ones friends (Gonzales for ag) and political "debts" rather than finding the best QUALIFIED person for the job, we should be able to smell the stench, maybe we've become too accustomed to it.

Election fraud is a looming monster that will have to be eliminated by simple, recountable ballots and high tech counting/tabulating of the votes. Both of these are fairly easily resolved. Any voter fraud or interference should be considered a very serious crime and severely punished. (Tobin comes to mind)

Your post opened up a good discussion, but dont get trapped in the name calling and the rhetoric........some employ it rather than dealing with the substance of the message. It is too easy when a person's knowlege or factual evidence FAILS them , to rely on oft repeated slogans and irrelevant rantings. (I think the "other" side calls them trolls) Some opinions here represent well thought out positions and are worthy of debate while others represent a group of people that demonstrate the need of....keep it simple, stupid,....for a reason.

 

[musicman]

Methinks the liberal is no account, slackjawed, walleyed, two bit, horse thieven, knuckledruggin, numbskull.

And, for all that, so pleased with himself he can hardly stand it!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

civil: Your comments have value. There are all kinds of opinions here, and no matter where you stand on a issue sooner or later you find yourself agreeing with somebody in spite of yourself. It is difficult for us here, to find that centerist balance and I dont know where it is in our congress, and among other policy making orgs. When votes go straight down party lines and app'ts reflect ones friends (Gonzales for ag) and political "debts" rather than finding the best QUALIFIED person for the job, we should be able to smell the stench, maybe we've become too accustomed to it.

Election fraud is a looming monster that will have to be eliminated by simple, recountable ballots and high tech counting/tabulating of the votes. Both of these are fairly easily resolved. Any voter fraud or interference should be considered a very serious crime and severely punished. (Tobin comes to mind)

Your post opened up a good discussion, but dont get trapped in the name calling and the rhetoric........some employ it rather than dealing with the substance of the message. It is too easy when a person's knowlege or factual evidence FAILS them , to rely on oft repeated slogans and irrelevant rantings. (I think the "other" side calls them trolls) Some opinions here represent well thought out positions and are worthy of debate while others represent a group of people that demonstrate the need of....keep it simple, stupid,....for a reason.

Hey Sagegirl. Thanks really, for making sure Blue State Andy feels comfortable and valued.

I know what you mean about some here unwilling or unable to be reasonable, it can be frustrating at times. For instance, the libs here are unable to actually see the world as it is. They constrict arguments to their political purposes (i.e. the war was ONLY about wmd), and take our military actions out of context with their historical revisionism to portray America as an evil empire that deserves to be taken down. This is vexing and frustrating.

Thanks you sagegirl for noticing the tensions that can occur on the board and opening up the dialogue to address them.

 

[sagegirl]

So let's hear what a so called non slanted news source would be? From what I saw and apparently you did not was that FOX news was about the only station to be accurate during the election. perhaps this is were you are drawing these theories from, maybe you need to watch a better news source! and you claim not to be a lib huh?

I 've gone to alot of links posted here and frankly most of them are biased ......the media is out there in full force for either "side". I think some of the links have been very good, one in particular was to The Center for Public Integrity. I think it was this website that even called down NPR as eliteist, and not representative of the Public. What a hit! I think we are best to gather information from a variety of sources, even from extreme sources that we disagree with. I find that I tend to "trust" or value a source if the substance of their reporting is accurate, (this comes over time, with accountability and analysis) . I tend to discount sources that hit and run with news stories that cannot stand the test of time. Neither side is above bias. We all want our opinions to prevail.

 

[Zhukov]

Your post opened up a good discussion, but dont get trapped in the name calling and the rhetoric........some employ it rather than dealing with the substance of the message.

I'd like to, in response to this, point out something. In response to his initial post I responded to the substance of the message explaining to him how what he wrote and the links he provided did not coincide logically.

What was the response? He demerited the post and then replied to the one part of it that was merely my conjecture while ignoring the substance of the rest.

He didn't 'get trapped in the name calling'. He jumped head first into it.

 

[sagegirl]

Sage - you are fairly new yourself here so that is a bit of a reach for you to be saying. The actual truth is that many here have combatted these theories until blue in the face, when a newbie comes in with the same old song and dance it tends to get old! What newbies fail to do is use the simple little feature called search that is very effective in finding what has been discussed here. Another thing they lack in doing is going over the rules which really bugs me!

As a newbie, I will aquaint myself with search and a few other aspects of reading and posting.....I get distracted. I actually enjoy myself here.....maybe I've become sadistic..... I am often really surprised at what I read. I'm working to be considered a thoughtful and respected "member of the board".

 

[rtwngAvngr]

As a newbie, I will aquaint myself with search and a few other aspects of reading and posting.....I get distracted. I actually enjoy myself here.....maybe I've become sadistic..... I am often really surprised at what I read. I'm working to be considered a thoughtful and respected "member of the board".

To be accepted you must make a decision:

In the Matrix, which pill would you take, the red or the blue?
The question of which pill to take illustrates the personal aspect of the decision to study philosophy. Do you live on in ignorance (and potentially bliss) or do you lead what Aristotle called 'the examined life'...

The Matrix is a film filled with religious and philosophical symbolism. The plot supposes that humans live in vats many years in the future, being fed false sensory information by a giant virtual reality computer (the Matrix). The perpetrators of this horror are machines of the future who use humans as a source of power. Humans are literally farmed.

The central character of the film, Neo, is presented to us in the opening part of the film as a loner who is searching for a mysterious character called Morpheus (named after the Greek god of dreams and sleep). He is also trying to discover the answer to the question "What is the Matrix?"

Morpheus contacts Neo just as the machines (posing as sinister 'agents') are trying to keep Neo from finding out any more. When Morpheus and Neo meet, Morpheus offers Neo two pills. The red pill will answer the question "what is the Matrix?" (by removing him from it) and the blue pill simply for life to carry on as before. As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo "Remember, all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."

The film as a whole and especially the choosing scene is deeply compelling. Why is the choice between what you believe you know and an unknown 'real' truth so fascinating? How could a choice possibly be made? On the one hand everyone you love and everything that you have built you life upon. One the other the promise only of truth.


The question then is not about pills, but what they stand for in these circumstances. The question is asking us whether reality, truth, is worth pursuing. The blue pill will leave us as we are, in a life consisting of habit, of things we believe we know. We are comfortable, we do need truth to live. The blue pill symbolises commuting to work every day, or brushing your teeth.

The red pill is an unknown quantity. We are told that it can help us to find the truth. We don't know what that truth is, or even that the pill will help us to find it. The red pill symbolises risk, doubt and questioning. In order to answer the question, you can gamble your whole life and world on a reality you have never experienced.

However, in order to investigate which course of action to take we need to investigate why the choice is faced. Why should we even have to decide whether to pursue truth?

The answer in short, is inquisitiveness. Many people throughout human existence have questioned and enquired. Most of them have not been scientists or doctors or philosophers, but simply ordinary people asking 'what if?' or 'why?' Asking these questions ultimately leads us to a choice. Do you continue to ask and investigate, or do you stop and never ask again? This in essence, is the question posed to Neo in the film.

So what are the advantages of taking the blue pill? As one of the characters in the film says, "ignorance is bliss" Essentially, if the truth is unknown, or you believe that you know the truth, what is there to question or worry about?

By accepting what we are told and experience life can be easier. There is the social pressure to 'fit in', which is immensely strong in most cultures. Questioning the status quo carries the danger of ostracism, possibly persecution. This aspect has a strong link with politics. People doing well under the current system are not inclined to look favourably on those who question the system. Morpheus says to Neo "You have to understand that many people are not ready to be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it."

The system also has a place for you, an expected path to follow. This removes much of the doubt and discomfort experienced by a trailblazer.

Another argument on the side of the blue pill is how does anyone know that the status quo is not in fact the truth? The act of simply questioning does not infer a lack of validity on the questioned. Why not assume that your experience is innocent until proven guilty? Just accept everything?

So if the arguments for the blue pill are so numerous, why take the red pill? Why pursue truth even though it may be unpalatable and the journey to it hard? In the film, Neo risks death to escape the virtual reality and discovers a brutal reality from which he cannot return. As he discovers the trouble with asking questions is that the answers are not necessarily what you want to hear.

To justify taking the red pill we might ask what is the purpose of an ignorant existence? Further still, what is there in merely existing? Simply existing brings humans down to the level of objects; they might have utility or even purpose, but where is the meaning? Existence without meaning is surely not living your life, but just experiencing it. As Trinity says to Neo, "The Matrix cannot tell you who you are."
Randomness
The serendipity of life is what thrills me; the way in which the skeins of life weave together and surprise you; that's the beauty of it for me and as close to God as I can get. If there were a God that's what I would have to identify as God: the miraculous in the everyday

Armistead Maupin - Source: Radio 4's Devout Sceptics on 15-JAN-2004

about randomness

Given the potential disadvantages of choosing the red pill, the motivation for discovering the truth must then be very strong. The film makes much of this point. Trinity says to Neo "It's the question that drives us, Neo." and Morpheus compares the motivation for Neo's search to "a splinter in your mind - driving you mad." The motivation for answering the question is obviously strong as the answer will help us to find the meaning in our lives.

What we are looking at here is the drive to answer a question, but the key to this is what drove the question in the first place. The asking of questions about our environment our experience and ourselves is fundamental to the human condition. Children ask a seemingly never-ending stream of questions from an early age. It is only with education and socialisation that some people stop asking these questions. However, we remain, as it were, hard-wired to enquire.

This is an inevitable consequence of consciousness. A being with a mind, conscious of itself and its existence, experiencing a reality, needs to organise the data that it receives from its senses. Simply observing and recording does not allow for consciousness. It is what we do with that information that allows us to think. In order to process and store the vast amount of information received, the human brain attempts to identify patterns in the data; looking for the patterns behind what is experienced. This is asking questions of the sensory information, and requires reasoning. By definition a conscious mind seeks to know. Knowing something requires more than just data, but intelligence or reasoning applied to that data. To attempt to obtain knowledge we must therefore question the data our mind receives; thus, consciousness questions.

So the metaphor of the journey to truth that Neo takes is complete. The journey starts with a question, there is a search for the answer and the answer may be reached. This shows us that the journey does not start with Neo choosing between the pills, or with ourselves deciding whether to question. The act of asking the question is itself the starting point as the aim of asking the question is to seek truth and knowledge.

We have established that consciousness is aware and seeks knowledge and that thus the conscious mind must question. To question is to seek the truth and start on the journey to knowledge. Therefore the choice between the pills is surely made for us. The fact that we are conscious appears to require us to take the red pill.

However, this can be simply countered by someone who would prefer to take the blue pill. They may wish to seek the truth in a different way, or in a less mind jarring set of circumstances. They can choose the blue pill and not deny their consciousness, but to stop seeking the truth entirely would be to deny their consciousness.

Thus we are philosophically driven to seek the truth and the act of questioning whether to seek it is in itself seeking the truth. As conscious minds we will always seek the truth. However, the choice over the red or blue pills is not solely a choice between whether to question or not, it is a personal choice on the method of discovering the truth.
http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php

 

[sagegirl]

Nice post RW!

hey hey we agree really really nice post!