Uprising in Egypt Splitting the Conservatives in the US

[uscitizen]

They say that war is God's way of teaching folks geography...

but haven't the events and the posts on the board taught you that there is no definition of democracy without defining the venue, as well?

"One shouldn’t cherry-pick facts to fit an agenda. The study does say that radicals “believe in democracy even more than many of the mainstream moderates do.” But does anyone really think we’re operating with a consistent definition of democracy here? The Muslim Brotherhood, for example, makes claims to be democratic, yet its leaders-for-life are not elected, the organization boasts a doctrine of female subordination, and it calls for the death of apostates. Kind of a big-government democracy, I suppose."

Commentary Blog Archive Muslim Survey “Challenges” West

Yes the common problems with a religion based government.
But if the majority of the people vote for them then it is democracy.

I am in no way saying that democracy always works out for the best.
Take our current version for instance....

Yet when we hear the word 'democracy' we mistakenly assume that it is our form, and should be supported.

Look, if we are off base in supporting 'our' dictators, then it is wrong to support, or to not resist, those 'democracies' that are blood-thirsty and inhumane.

Another example of moral relativism? Or am I being too manichean?

good reply although I have no idea what manichean means?

Yes we should not support the bad regeimes be they democracies or dictatorships.

does that mean we should not even trade with them? I really do not know on that, depends on the severity of their depravity I suppose.

If we economically isolate them they will surely get no better will they?
And it will foster anti american sentiment that will fester and grow.

I really do not know, why I never wanted to be a diplomat I suppose.

I do however understand how our meddling in other nations business over the decades has fostered anti american sentiment though. One must see both sides of an argument to understand. Actuall all 3 sides. My side, Your side and the truth.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

James Madison: Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Yep the Shah did not care much for his people from the way he treated them.
Of course he was the spoiled playboy type son of the ex leader of Iran, a Hitler collabarator.

Kinda reminds me of the bush clan in a way

"When the Iranian revolution came to power, with the help of Democratic President Jimmy Carter, the Ayatollah Khomeini killed more human beings (about twenty thousand) in two weeks than had been killed by the Shah during his entire thirty-eight years. Khomeini followed this by sending hundreds of thousands of Iranians to die in the Iran-Iraq war, as martyrdom was needed to resurrect the Islamic Empire."
Paul Berman, “Terror and Liberalism,” p. 108

And?
I am just stating facts, not apologizing for nor supporting the shah nor the Iatollia (sp?)

Like Bush promised in his campaign.
I am not for the USA being the police force of the world nor being into nation building.
You got no neocon here.

I am pretty much Libertarian in my view of how the USA should behave in world politics.

"...the Shah did not care much for his people from the way he treated them."

Not true.

"After returning to power in 1954, the shah launched an effort to modernize Iran economically and socially. He sought to balance his increase in power with reforms that would win more favor from common Iranians."

The Iranian Revolution

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

John Quincy Adams: The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.

 

[uscitizen]

You either believe democracy is the best from of government or you dont.

I believe it is the best from of government,

I am amazed at how many on the right only think its good for us and then its only good when THEY get what they want.

You are to brain dead to consider any further, Im going to have to put you on ignore.

Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.

And yet Jefferson signed off on it?

Give up on the godhood of the founding fathers won't ya?
They were a mess and had their own interests at heart just like we do.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Yes the common problems with a religion based government.
But if the majority of the people vote for them then it is democracy.

I am in no way saying that democracy always works out for the best.
Take our current version for instance....

Yet when we hear the word 'democracy' we mistakenly assume that it is our form, and should be supported.

Look, if we are off base in supporting 'our' dictators, then it is wrong to support, or to not resist, those 'democracies' that are blood-thirsty and inhumane.

Another example of moral relativism? Or am I being too manichean?

good reply although I have no idea what manichean means?

Yes we should not support the bad regeimes be they democracies or dictatorships.

does that mean we should not even trade with them? I really do not know on that, depends on the severity of their depravity I suppose.

If we economically isolate them they will surely get no better will they?
And it will foster anti american sentiment that will fester and grow.

I really do not know, why I never wanted to be a diplomat I suppose.

I do however understand how our meddling in other nations business over the decades has fostered anti american sentiment though. One must see both sides of an argument to understand. Actuall all 3 sides. My side, Your side and the truth.

Sorry. Manichean. Seeing the world as good or evil.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

John Marshall: Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos.

Oscar Wilde: Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.

Winston Churchill: The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

 

[Synthaholic]

and the left works hard for the Muslim Brotherhood.. blaming Americans for the fear and hatred of Islam.. we gotttcha.. nothing ever happened to Americans did it??? nadddda.. zip,, zit.. newp

Let me ask you a question:

Should the "entire right"...............be called stupid, unable to read and comprehend, and full of hot air, simply because YOU are stupid, unable to read and comprehend, and full of hot air? A yes or no would do.

call me whatever you choose,, it won't change a thing you moron.

That's true! You will continue to believe whatever some blogger writes.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

God this is what you get with public education, these trolls think they live in a democracy!!!!

 

[LibocalypseNow]

The Left does have somewhat of a history of sympathizing with and supporting Radical Islam all over the World. Beck really wasn't so off on his take. American & European Leftists especially,are well known for such support. David Horowitz really does lay it all out quite excellently in his book 'Unholy Alliance.' Many American & European Leftists have this irrational hatred for Christians & Jews. This irrational hatred causes them to be very hostile towards Christians & Jews. This hostility leads to them supporting Radical Islam. It is very sad and disturbing but it is also the truth. Just look at the Lefties over at CNN & BBC rushing to legitimize and cheerlead for The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They're now even calling them the "Good Guys." So Beck wasn't too off. The Left does seem to link up with radicals quite often.

 

[uscitizen]

During 1978, negotiations were under way between the Shah’s government and British Petroleum for renewal of the 25-year old extraction agreement. By October 1978, the talks had collapsed over a British ‘offer’ which demanded exclusive rights to Iran’s future oil output, while refusing to guarantee purchase of the oil. With their dependence on British-controlled export apparently at an end, Iran appeared on the verge of independence in its oil sales policy for the first time since 1953, with eager prospective buyers in Germany, France, Japan and elsewhere. In its lead editorial that September, Iran’s Kayhan International stated:

In retrospect, the 25-year partnership with the [British Petroleum] consortium and the 50-year relationship with British Petroleum which preceded it, have not been satisfactory ones for Iran Looking to the future, NIOC [National Iranian Oil Company] should plan to handle all operations by itself.

London was blackmailing and putting enormous economic pressure on the Shah’s regime by refusing to buy Iranian oil production, taking only 3 million or so barrels daily of an agreed minimum of 5 million barrels per day. This imposed dramatic revenue pressures on Iran, which provided the context in which religious discontent against the Shah could be fanned by trained agitators deployed by British and U.S. intelligence. In addition, strikes among oil workers at this critical juncture crippled Iranian oil production.

As Iran’s domestic economic troubles grew, American ‘security’ advisers to the Shah’s Savak secret police implemented a policy of ever more brutal repression, in a manner calculated to maximize popular antipathy to the Shah. At the same time, the Carter administration cynically began protesting abuses of ‘human rights’ under the Shah.

British Petroleum reportedly began to organize capital flight out of Iran, through its strong influence in Iran’s financial and banking community. The British Broadcasting Corporation’s Persian-language broadcasts, with dozens of Persian-speaking BBC ‘correspondents’ sent into even the smallest village, drummed up hysteria against the Shah. The BBC gave Ayatollah Khomeini a full propaganda platform inside Iran during this time. The British government-owned broadcasting organization refused to give the Shah’s government an equal chance to reply. Repeated personal appeals from the Shah to the BBC yielded no result. Anglo-American intelligence was committed to toppling the Shah. The Shah fled in January, and by February 1979, Khomeini had been flown into Tehran to proclaim the establishment of his repressive theocratic state to replace the Shah’s government.

CIA conspiracy in Iran which installed Khomeini and the Mullahs : Deadline Live With Jack Blood

 

[Newby]

You either believe democracy is the best from of government or you dont.

I believe it is the best from of government,

I am amazed at how many on the right only think its good for us and then its only good when THEY get what they want.

You are to brain dead to consider any further, Im going to have to put you on ignore.

Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.

And yet Jefferson signed off on it?

Give up on the godhood of the founding fathers won't ya?
They were a mess and had their own interests at heart just like we do.

Wow. That explains a lot.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Karl Marx: Democracy is the road to socialism.

 

[Avatar4321]

How does this show there is a divide on the right? The premise is wrong.

There is no evidence that "democracy" has anything to do with these riots.

If there was reason to believe that these people would be free, then I suppose there could in theory be a divide.

 

[Avatar4321]

God this is what you get with public education, these trolls think they live in a democracy!!!!

They also think that these riots are caused by desires for democracy rather than the food shortage created by the United States' poor public policy.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

In reality,the Radical Islamists have now been unleashed in both Egypt & Tunisia. Anyone who doesn't see this is just living in denile.

 

[bodecea]

Yeah, you keep dreaming.

I must have missed something....your post doesn't even come close to answering uscitizen's question.

You mean like when you never answered how Saturday was a holiday?? Not even close.

Who said Saturday was a holiday? (blatant deflection attempt noted)

 

[WillowTree]

Fight democracy all you want it harms our country to do so.

Remember right after 911 you all womndered why they hate us?

why do they hate us? tell us?

What buildings did they fly planes into ?


The twin towers was a symbol of American business.

The pentagon is still the symbol of American military.

You pretended they attacked us for our freedoms remember?

What you want is for the US to be against democracy.

Democracy will win in the end and if you truely lvoed democracy you would agree that the MORE democracy in this world the better.

Instead you want to support a dictator....why?

so they hate us for our money and our military.. is that what you said?

 

[Newby]

I must have missed something....your post doesn't even come close to answering uscitizen's question.

You mean like when you never answered how Saturday was a holiday?? Not even close.

Who said Saturday was a holiday? (blatant deflection attempt noted)

holiday = A holy day? Why is there no school on Saturday?

There's no deflection to note, the subject of democracy has been clearly addressed very well by others in the thread, so why would I repeat them?

 

[random3434]

Glenn Beck's Egypt Freakout: How the Uprising Splits U.S. Conservatives - The Daily Beast

Egypt is a prime example of why people hate us. Bush used to claim they hate us because of our Freedoms. That was of course a line of Pure BS. The fact is they envy our Freedoms, and hate us for not standing up for freedom.

We have supported Mubarak for nearly 30 Years while he brutalized his own people, and kept them from Freedom.

Today the only wise choice would be to not support any new Military Dictator, and instead say we stand with the People of Egypt and want to see a Democratic Election in Egypt. Whether or not that may lead to an Islamic Republic.

Instead it appears we will stick with the Status Quo and quietly support what ever Dictator takes over.

Shame on us. It appears It matters not whether you have a Liberal or a Conservative, a Democrat or a Republican in Office. Our foreign policy will still be based solely on our own interests and care little for standing up for Freedom from oppression.

Exactly!