Unions once again throw their members under the bus

[WillowTree]

 

[Rat in the Hat]

 

[thereisnospoon]

[

Sure it is. Being a labor boss requires no special skills. No college degree. No experience in economics or business. No leadership. No motivational skills. No ability to see both sides of a negotiation.
When union members lose jobs, who is left standing, making the same money they did the day before? The union bosses.
Look,unions are a business. And as such, operate in their own self interest. If the scale tips in the survival of the business( union) and the need to keep members working, the business always wins out.
I had two friends that were iron workers in NYC. When they were working, they had lots of money. When they were not working which seemed to be about half the time, they struggled to make ends meet while waiting for the union to assign them more work.
I asked them why just not go and find your own work? Set up a shop in your garage and make stuff for people? They said they could not go to a job that the union did not send them to. I asked how the union would know. They said that the union would make them go to the union hall a few times a week.
They said that if they worked a job that the union did not assign or a GOD FORBID, non union job, they would lose their union book.
I said to them that in my mind it didn't make sense to sit around waiting for $30 per hour when they could be working every day for $25....It was the benefits and pensions they were after.
I was like, The union doesn't pay your bills when you're not working ,does it?
I think the whole thing is just stupid. Imagine some strangers telling me I cannot work a job "just because"...I'd be like, "Fuck you..You're the one driving the Cadillac and living in a 4,000 square foot house with kids in private school while I am struggling to make my mortgage each month."
The way I see it is the union should allow the furloughed to go and find work where they needed to. The trade off is when the worker is called to go to an assigned job, they must go to that job in order to maintain their membership. But unions don't operate that way. No collective can. It must be a captive marketplace.

Why do I get the feeling you are someone who tried to get a union card at a young age and couldn't.

The problem with teh "Why don't you scab out the union at $25.00 an hour" mentality is eventually, someone else will scab you out for $20.00. Then they'll hire an illegal for $10.00 an hour. And the job will be done in a halfass way and that steel structure will probably end up collapsing on someone, but dammit, a rich asshole made money, and that was the important thing.

Stow your feelings. Never had an interest never will. I believe in the rights of individuals. I reject the notion of collectives. Collectives protect the mediocre while stifling the outstanding. With collectives there is no incentive to do exemplary work because those who excel are not rewarded for merit.
Your twisting of the issue is just one example why unions are distrusted and in the eyes of some, despised.
All people want to do is work and keep working. Archaic union rules...everybody loses. Except the union bosses that is.
Like it or not, labor is a commodity. Labor is also the largest percentage of expense in any business. It is essential for any intelligent business person to balance the need for exemplary workers and the cost to have said workers.
Balance is the key. Any smart business person knows his most skilled people need proper compensation and those levels must be advertised when attempting to attract the best people to apply. However, unions make no promises as to the quality or ability of workers. Business was supposed to accept what the union gave them.
Business was just supposed to accept the terms of the union demanded. Those days are over. Business, Hostess is a prime example, can no longer sustain the above market wages and gold plated benefits.
Anyway, that's off topic. The bottom line is no collective should have such control over it's members such that is keeps them from making and honest living.
Your way is old and out of touch. Unions as they are currently operated are a dinosaur.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Stow your feelings. Never had an interest never will. I believe in the rights of individuals. I reject the notion of collectives. Collectives protect the mediocre while stifling the outstanding. With collectives there is no incentive to do exemplary work because those who excel are not rewarded for merit.
Your twisting of the issue is just one example why unions are distrusted and in the eyes of some, despised.
All people want to do is work and keep working. Archaic union rules...everybody loses. Except the union bosses that is.
Like it or not, labor is a commodity. Labor is also the largest percentage of expense in any business. It is essential for any intelligent business person to balance the need for exemplary workers and the cost to have said workers.
Balance is the key. Any smart business person knows his most skilled people need proper compensation and those levels must be advertised when attempting to attract the best people to apply. However, unions make no promises as to the quality or ability of workers. Business was supposed to accept what the union gave them.
Business was just supposed to accept the terms of the union demanded. Those days are over. Business, Hostess is a prime example, can no longer sustain the above market wages and gold plated benefits.
Anyway, that's off topic. The bottom line is no collective should have such control over it's members such that is keeps them from making and honest living.
Your way is old and out of touch. Unions as they are currently operated are a dinosaur.

Let me guess. Couldn't even get pass the Apprenticeship because you "knew everything", eh, guy. I think I kind of have you pegged here.

I don't buy the "business knows best" argument anymore, guy. Not sure why you do. Other than daily brainwashing by Hate Radio, perhaps.

If Businesses made such good and fair decisions on salaries, why can I be fired if I tell my co-workers what I make? Why won't they tell me what my co-workers make?

That's right, because it isn't what's right or fair, it's what they think they can get away with.

And unions let them get away with a lot less.

 

[thereisnospoon]

You can believe that if it makes you feel better. Doesn't make it true. This is Hostess' second time in Bankruptcy in three years.
The labor costs are just too expensive for the company to compete. And sales were regional.
I enjoy their products. I grew up on Ring Dings and other Drakes/Hostess products. Quite frankly, these brands are not sold everywhere and mostly due to pricing. Hostess' labor costs cause their products to be sold at a much higher price point than that of their competitors. Hence the reason for the company wanting concessions from labor.
The bottom line...You either compete or you die. The union bosses chose "die" and 18k people got railroaded out of work. Just in time for the Holidays. Nice going, union bosses.

Again- horseshit.

After the first bankruptcy, the Bakers union agreed to concessions that brought their wages below other workers in the industry. They agreed to benefit cuts and force reductions as well.

But like most of the things done by your Hero, Mitt ROmney, instead of taking those savings and investing them in the company, the hedge funds borrowed a shitload of money to pay their investors and themselves, leaving the company under a ton of debt...

BCTGM | Giving Thanks for Hostess Workers

The reason why they "choked" was that the company didn't buy new equipment didn't invest in developing new product. They simply borrowed and borrowed until they couldn't leverage anymore.

Kind of like that scene in Goodfellas when they burn down the bar after running up tons of debt buying swag on their credit.

Aww for Christ's sake. You're really going to use a union website as a source. How about using one that is slightly less biased.
Hey genius, if the unions had agreed to concessions they would be back at work as we speak. Half of them went back and tried to convince the management to keep the plants open. It wasn't enough. The company could not fill it's orders and meet it's obligations.

 

[JoeB131]

Aww for Christ's sake. You're really going to use a union website as a source. How about using one that is slightly less biased.
Hey genius, if the unions had agreed to concessions they would be back at work as we speak. Half of them went back and tried to convince the management to keep the plants open. It wasn't enough. The company could not fill it's orders and meet it's obligations.

yeah, if the Unions agreed to an 8% pay cut, they'd be back at work.

Until the next crisis where they'd be asked for more pay cuts and more force cuts and more salary cuts and maybe some folks get injured because they don't have enough personnel on the machines.

 

[HUGGY]

Unions representing Hostess Bakery workers were warned bu the company that a job action would result in the company shutting down and seeking to liquidate assets.
The unions refused to budge and decided the company owners were bluffing. Today, 18,500 workers lost their jobs and an American Icon was put out of business by greedy union bosses.
VIDEO Twinkies-maker Hostess to cease operations - baltimoresun.com
Hostess to cease operations, close local retail stores

They did the country as a whole a favor. Hostess makes crap. Probably saved the health care costs billions in fewer cases of diabetes.

 

[thereisnospoon]

[

You just keep on spewing that propaganda. It's very amusing.
You people are so worried about what everyone else is doing. What others have.
You're the equivalent to the nosy neighbor so obsessed with what others are doing, you'd leave a frying pan of hot grease on your stove so that you can run down the the street and stick your nose in the business of others. Only to come back and find your own house ablaze.

Sorry, man, the greed of the assholes became my business in 2008, when after getting fired because an insurance company thought the hospital was spending too much of their money saving my life, their crashing of the HOusing market wiped out half of my home and stock value.

Again, their main problem is they are too greedy. They already had plenty. They wanted more, they didn't give a shit who got hurt.

Your health situation is your private business.
As for the housing issue, look no further than the federal government. That's where is started and that's where it should have ended.
And if you think you are the only one who lost equity, you're nuts. And quite selfish.
As matter of fact, I am sick and tired of your anecdotes on your personal tragedies.
You are not the only one. So stop complaining.
Toughen up. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I love the hysterical, mouth-frothing hatred for anyone who tries to actually better himself, instead of tugging his forelock and saying, "ya, massa!" to whatever the union tells him.

But you're right, the union quality is worth it! Just look at Boston's Big Dig...err, wait...

You mean the one where the private contractors purchased sub-standard materials?

Big Dig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BUt they made a profit, that was the important thing.

Massachusetts State Police searched the offices of Aggregate Industries, the largest concrete supplier for the underground portions of the project, in June 2005. They seized evidence that Aggregate delivered concrete that did not meet contract specifications. In May 2006, six employees of the company were arrested and charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Immediately after the arrests, Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney announced he would return $3,900 in political contributions from employees of Aggregate Industries.[37]

Hmmm... big corporations and Romney. Why am I not surprised?

OK This is great. The union guys, supposedly the best of the best, hence their far above market wages, were supposed to be able to identify anything out of the ordinary.
When the work gets done correctly the unions boast of their superior abilities.
And such was the case when the Big Dig was ongoing.
Thing is when the shit hit the fan, the unions stepped in with their collective "wasn't us".
And of course, we're all just supposed to swallow that story.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Aww for Christ's sake. You're really going to use a union website as a source. How about using one that is slightly less biased.
Hey genius, if the unions had agreed to concessions they would be back at work as we speak. Half of them went back and tried to convince the management to keep the plants open. It wasn't enough. The company could not fill it's orders and meet it's obligations.

yeah, if the Unions agreed to an 8% pay cut, they'd be back at work.

Until the next crisis where they'd be asked for more pay cuts and more force cuts and more salary cuts and maybe some folks get injured because they don't have enough personnel on the machines.

SO this is your logic...ZERO % is better than 92%?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Unions representing Hostess Bakery workers were warned bu the company that a job action would result in the company shutting down and seeking to liquidate assets.
The unions refused to budge and decided the company owners were bluffing. Today, 18,500 workers lost their jobs and an American Icon was put out of business by greedy union bosses.
VIDEO Twinkies-maker Hostess to cease operations - baltimoresun.com
Hostess to cease operations, close local retail stores

They did the country as a whole a favor. Hostess makes crap. Probably saved the health care costs billions in fewer cases of diabetes.

Bitter.

 

[HUGGY]

Unions representing Hostess Bakery workers were warned bu the company that a job action would result in the company shutting down and seeking to liquidate assets.
The unions refused to budge and decided the company owners were bluffing. Today, 18,500 workers lost their jobs and an American Icon was put out of business by greedy union bosses.
VIDEO Twinkies-maker Hostess to cease operations - baltimoresun.com
Hostess to cease operations, close local retail stores

They did the country as a whole a favor. Hostess makes crap. Probably saved the health care costs billions in fewer cases of diabetes.

Bitter.

Bitter about what? I don't consume the garbage that they make. I have no dog in that fight. I know for a fact that Americans eat way too much refined sugar.

"Uncontrolled diabetes wreaks havoc on the body, often leading to kidney failure, blindness and death. A new study shows that the nation's unchecked diabetes epidemic exacts a heavy financial toll as well: $174 billion a year."

Diabetes costs USA more than wars, disasters, study says - USATODAY.com

That's almost two trillion over ten years. You think THAT is a trivial problem?

 

[JoeB131]

Aww for Christ's sake. You're really going to use a union website as a source. How about using one that is slightly less biased.
Hey genius, if the unions had agreed to concessions they would be back at work as we speak. Half of them went back and tried to convince the management to keep the plants open. It wasn't enough. The company could not fill it's orders and meet it's obligations.

yeah, if the Unions agreed to an 8% pay cut, they'd be back at work.

Until the next crisis where they'd be asked for more pay cuts and more force cuts and more salary cuts and maybe some folks get injured because they don't have enough personnel on the machines.

SO this is your logic...ZERO % is better than 92%?

Depends. Most of these guys will probably get jobs at Hostess's competitors that did all the things. Especially once their competitors buy up the factories and the brand names.

If you are the guys who bought the right to "Twinky", you'd probably want a guy whose been baking them for 20 years.

The only way to put an end to Corporate Vampires is to drive a stake through their hearts.

 

[JoeB131]

[
OK This is great. The union guys, supposedly the best of the best, hence their far above market wages, were supposed to be able to identify anything out of the ordinary.
When the work gets done correctly the unions boast of their superior abilities.
And such was the case when the Big Dig was ongoing.
Thing is when the shit hit the fan, the unions stepped in with their collective "wasn't us".
And of course, we're all just supposed to swallow that story.

Wow, it took a while for you to come up with that excuse, eh?

So it was the union guys fault private contractors used sub-standard materials and knew they were doing so. Private Contractors that gave a shitload of money to Romney to help him get elected. Nope, nothing to see here.

You tried to blame the problem on unions. In fact, the problem was the contractors using sub-standard materials to increase their profit margin. But Profit is good.

 

[Stephanie]

[
OK This is great. The union guys, supposedly the best of the best, hence their far above market wages, were supposed to be able to identify anything out of the ordinary.
When the work gets done correctly the unions boast of their superior abilities.
And such was the case when the Big Dig was ongoing.
Thing is when the shit hit the fan, the unions stepped in with their collective "wasn't us".
And of course, we're all just supposed to swallow that story.

Wow, it took a while for you to come up with that excuse, eh?

So it was the union guys fault private contractors used sub-standard materials and knew they were doing so. Private Contractors that gave a shitload of money to Romney to help him get elected. Nope, nothing to see here.

You tried to blame the problem on unions. In fact, the problem was the contractors using sub-standard materials to increase their profit margin. But Profit is good.

oh boy, and you have all the inside information I guess

 

[blastoff]

Never had a good experience with a union, union workers. Plenty of experiences but nothing except problems from them, so first choice is always a nonunion shop.

 

[thereisnospoon]

They did the country as a whole a favor. Hostess makes crap. Probably saved the health care costs billions in fewer cases of diabetes.

Bitter.

Bitter about what? I don't consume the garbage that they make. I have no dog in that fight. I know for a fact that Americans eat way too much refined sugar.

"Uncontrolled diabetes wreaks havoc on the body, often leading to kidney failure, blindness and death. A new study shows that the nation's unchecked diabetes epidemic exacts a heavy financial toll as well: $174 billion a year."

Diabetes costs USA more than wars, disasters, study says - USATODAY.com

That's almost two trillion over ten years. You think THAT is a trivial problem?

If you wish to discuss healthy eating habits, by all means, start a thread on that subject.
Your efforts to hijack this thread are a FAIL.
Apparently until you and that nanny state Micheal Bloomberg figure out a way to ban all the foods you don't like, you can just stow your righteous indignation. Nobody cares what you think. Stay on point!
Good Bye..

 

[thereisnospoon]

Never had a good experience with a union, union workers. Plenty of experiences but nothing except problems from them, so first choice is always a nonunion shop.

Was working at a stock transfer company in the 80's as a courier then became the supervisor.
We hired a couple of new guys( neither were my first choice but I got trumped by the upper echelons)..Soon after they started work, they went and sought out a union to represent the 15 workers that were in our dept.
Long story short, they found that they were the only two who wanted to be represented.
They were PISSED. They tried to say that we HAD to unionize by law.
They figured out a way to "fire themselves"..LOL..
All I did was record their attendance and punctuality records and before too long we had enough to send these two malcontents packing.

 

[thereisnospoon]

[

Stow your feelings. Never had an interest never will. I believe in the rights of individuals. I reject the notion of collectives. Collectives protect the mediocre while stifling the outstanding. With collectives there is no incentive to do exemplary work because those who excel are not rewarded for merit.
Your twisting of the issue is just one example why unions are distrusted and in the eyes of some, despised.
All people want to do is work and keep working. Archaic union rules...everybody loses. Except the union bosses that is.
Like it or not, labor is a commodity. Labor is also the largest percentage of expense in any business. It is essential for any intelligent business person to balance the need for exemplary workers and the cost to have said workers.
Balance is the key. Any smart business person knows his most skilled people need proper compensation and those levels must be advertised when attempting to attract the best people to apply. However, unions make no promises as to the quality or ability of workers. Business was supposed to accept what the union gave them.
Business was just supposed to accept the terms of the union demanded. Those days are over. Business, Hostess is a prime example, can no longer sustain the above market wages and gold plated benefits.
Anyway, that's off topic. The bottom line is no collective should have such control over it's members such that is keeps them from making and honest living.
Your way is old and out of touch. Unions as they are currently operated are a dinosaur.

Let me guess. Couldn't even get pass the Apprenticeship because you "knew everything", eh, guy. I think I kind of have you pegged here.

I don't buy the "business knows best" argument anymore, guy. Not sure why you do. Other than daily brainwashing by Hate Radio, perhaps.

If Businesses made such good and fair decisions on salaries, why can I be fired if I tell my co-workers what I make? Why won't they tell me what my co-workers make?

That's right, because it isn't what's right or fair, it's what they think they can get away with.

And unions let them get away with a lot less.

You don't think. You guess.
What the fuck are you guessing for. You are wasting your time. Do you have a reading problem. Just got through indicating that I never was nor will I ever be interested in joining a labor collective.
...Without business, there ARE NO JOBS...
It is none of anyone's business the earnings of another. That's why these rules are in place.
In the more widely accepted merit pay situation, wages of an individual are a private matter between the worker and the employer. That is how it should be.
Again, you have this problem with not minding your own business.
You accuse me of being brainwashed. Do you ever read your own posts?

 

[Katzndogz]

[

More accurately, the union bosses found the way of life of the men whom they battled so diligently against better to their liking and became as corrupt as the politicians with whom they joined forces to screw the workers they claimed to represent.

Immie

Most union presidents make mid six figures.

CEO's are making 7 and 8 figures. Even when their companies fail. The president of hostess made 2.25 million when his company went into bankruptcy- twice.

Not even a close comparison...

Brian Driscoll the CEO who gave himself that raise was fired. Maybe the union bosses should be fired too.