Unions in the US

[Annie]

many teachers believe that it's the two most powerful education unions that prevent real reform of schools.

Teachers Union Facts

quick question:

why does that come up yellow in Web of Trust?

Gee, possible that union folks report it a lot?

 

[RadiomanATL]

[...]

In my area, there are two major chain grocery stores. One is union, one is not. They have nearly identical benefit packages for their workers. Identical pay scales. Only difference is that the Union members see more money taken out of their check for union dues than the non-union store. For no extra benefits than the non-union store.

If Store A is a union shop and store B is not you may rest assured that Store B's employees would not enjoy their level of benefits if Store A's union shop didn't set the bar. Store B is keeping pace because it doesn't want the union coming in.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that one when it comes to this particular situation. I used to live in a town that did not have a Kroger for over 100 miles, the Publix there still offered the same things it does here.

Yeah, thats a winner for the workers. Lets take more money away from those who can least afford to lose it.

If you haven't already seen the following movies I respectfully suggest that you rent them because they tell an important tale:

Harlan County USA

Norma Rae

The Molly McGuires

On The Waterfront

Matewan

Hoffa

You can also Google up the story of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire.

All of the above will support my assertion that the union movement alone is the reason why there is a middle class in America. And unless you've been born into wealth and privilege it is virtually certain that your working conditions and your life in general would be far more difficult and unpleasant were it not for the overall effectiveness of the unions.

While there is no question that some unions have fallen under the control of greedy, unethical, exploitive and in some cases incompetent leadership and need to be regulated, don't make the mistake of thinking the elimination of unions would be anything less than a disaster for the American working class.

Once again, I am not denying nor minimizing the things that unions have done in the past ~35 years. But since the mid/late 70's, it appears to me that the unions have become less and less concerned with what their purpose is, and more concerned with keeping their business going.

 

[RadiomanATL]

The unions were very successful and have largely rendered themselves obsolete. That's a testament to their success, much like a doctor curing his patient and no longer being needed.

Also, the opening up of the job market within the entire country helps too.

Used to be, you stayed in one town. Maybe moved once. Now, people move all over the place when a better job comes along. People now have the ability to search out a better situation for themselves, across the nation (and even internationally). Unions for the most part are stuck in the model of this person has to work *here* (where-ever here is).

Then we circle back around to what goldcatt was saying on one of these union threads. Unions are trying a one-size-fits-all solution across their base and ignoring local issues/advantages to problems.

 

[mdn2000]

[...]

If Store A is a union shop and store B is not you may rest assured that Store B's employees would not enjoy their level of benefits if Store A's union shop didn't set the bar. Store B is keeping pace because it doesn't want the union coming in.

.

I work for a conservative, and I am conservative, and I worked in Union shop as a non-union employee, I made a lot more than my equals working for competitors. When I quit and went to the competitor I commanded a higher price as all our employees set the bar for pay in our field.

 

[asterism]

That’s because labor costs, for all the attention they have been receiving, make up only about 10 percent of the cost of making a vehicle.​

The article gives a good breakdown of what the unions cost the car-buyer.

Here is what Union workers cost the truck buyer.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $29 per hour in wages.

GM produces 1,428 trucks a day

Union employees 214

$29.00 Hr. X 8 hours X 214 Union workers = $49648.00 -:- 1428 Trks = 34.77 a truck labor.

Any questions?


Seeing the light on the GM line | The Journal Gazette | Fort Wayne, IN




Seeing the light on the GM line | The Journal Gazette | Fort Wayne, IN

So the only people who are union workers at GM are the assembly line workers? Not the forklift drivers, the parts drivers, the secretaries, the janitors, AND THE RETIRED WORKERS WHO ARE STILL RECEIVING BENEFITS.

Idiot.

That's a prime example of why some modern version unions have completely lost their effectiveness, just about nobody in them understands business. There are some good union organizations, especially in right to work states. The CWA and IBEW locals that mostly work with Verizon have to compete and they do. The apprenticeship programs are excellent, the pay is higher because they provide more value to the employers, and their pensions are generally managed well. But you'll never see solidarity strikes with them and they don't demand higher wages for doing the same job others will gladly do for less. Their higher wages come from innovation and being ahead of the curve.

 

[goldcatt]

If you haven't already seen the following movies I respectfully suggest that you rent them because they tell an important tale:

Harlan County USA

Norma Rae

The Molly McGuires

On The Waterfront

Matewan

Hoffa

You can also Google up the story of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire.

All of the above will support my assertion that the union movement alone is the reason why there is a middle class in America. And unless you've been born into wealth and privilege it is virtually certain that your working conditions and your life in general would be far more difficult and unpleasant were it not for the overall effectiveness of the unions.

While there is no question that some unions have fallen under the control of greedy, unethical, exploitive and in some cases incompetent leadership and need to be regulated, don't make the mistake of thinking the elimination of unions would be anything less than a disaster for the American working class.

I'm a descendant of a Molly (or so ). I live in a home that was built as part of a long-time textile company town. Economic serfdom in many ways was still a part of life even when I was growing up. The truth of unions isn't as easy as "Unions bad" or "Unions rawk".

But comparing the very real abuses that are the subject of these films to some of the demands made by today's nationalized unions does the actual history and purpose of the labor movement a real disservice. There simply is no comparison between today's shops and the flat out hell the American worker and their families often dealt with pre-labor movement. Those people were literally fighting for their freedom and their lives. A situation that, without a balance, could certainly redevelop. The labor movement will always be needed.

That's to unions' (and others') credit, but it also points out the problem with the modern union in that they've become to some extent what they once despised, reaping largely unearned financial benefits on the backs of employees and using some of the same tactics the people they were organized to oppose used themselves.

I'm not anti-union. It would be impossible for me to be anti-union. But it would be completely disingenuous of me not to recognize that power corrupts. They need to remember who they are, what they actually represent and what they've fought for. The Mollies would probably hang their heads in shame at some of what today's unions whine over and call "abuse". And it cheapens real abuses that still take place. Until and unless unions get back to basics, they're not going to grow or have the respect they seem to feel they deserve.

 

[Moon]

The threat of unionization is the only thing that keeps the essential and necessary symbiotic relationship between labor and management in balance.

Considering the low number of workers that are unionized, I'd have to say your statement is incorrect. I've worked in two manufacturing facilities in two different states where an attempt was made to bring unions in. Both attempts failed miserably because the workers didn't want them there.

And why do you suppose that is? Because the employer is just naturally generous and benevolent? Or do you think it's because the employer is aware that the union movement is still alive and doesn't want to deal with it.

It was dealt with the way it should have been in both cases. At the first plant, 7 people showed up for he first meeting and no one who attended was in favor of the union so they pulled out. At the second plant, one or two people showed up so the union reps left. No great mystery. The union moved died a quick and quiet death at both places, because the WORKERS didn't want them.

 

[Moon]

Cons want to go back to working 7 days and holidays. Well, for the little people, anyway.

That's bullshit. Prove your statement.

 

[daveman]

The 2000 is per car not per worker, dumbass.
And remember we're just talking legacy costs, i.e. retirement, etc... not regular wages.

Apparently he was taught math by a union teacher.

My wife is a union teacher and she's damned good at it.

Shintao needs a tutor. Would she be interested?

 

[DaGoose]

To say that Unions "served their purpose and are no longer needed" flies in the face of reality.

Many years ago Caterpillar went on strike to fight the company's determination to put in a two tiered wage and benefit scale. The Union went on strike and lost. Now jobs that used to be full time and paid competitive wages and benefits are now part time and average $13 per hour with no benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.). Their CEO is among the highest paid and the company is making record profits. All this on the backs of the workers making the product.

When the trucking industry deregulated (which broke the Union) jobs that used to be good, well paying jobs went by the wayside. Sure, it opened up a lot of jobs but these jobs, on average, pay $30k-40k per year for driving 6 days a week and being away from home for weeks at a time. "Truck broke down 500 miles from home? Tough. You're not getting paid for the three days it takes to get fixed".

Recent figures show that the foreign, non-union auto makers in the US are beginning to pay wages and benefits comparable to their Union counterparts. Why? To keep Unions out. What do you suppose would happen to these great jobs if the UAW was broken in Detroit? I know and I think you do too.

 

[editec]

Compare the state of the working classes BEFORE unions existed.

How's it match up to how we live now?

On the whole unions made it possible for most of us to have the quality of lives we enjoy.

 

[DaGoose]

Compare the state of the working classes BEFORE unions existed.

How's it match up to how we live now?

On the whole unions made it possible for most of us to have the quality of lives we enjoy.

Here are some facts that support what you posted...............

Unions benefit all of America’s workers and strengthen our communities.

Unions today:

Reinforce the middle class and lift up America’s communities. States with higher rates of unionization have lower rates of poverty, crime, and failing schools.

Benefit local economic development. In partnerships with employers, community organizations, and local governments, unions have helped revitalize local economies by saving and expanding family-supporting jobs.

Raise wages for all workers. Studies show that a large union presence in an industry or region can raise wages even for non-union workers.

Fight for all workers’ health and safety. In 2008 the AFL-CIO and the United Food and Commercial Workers sued to get employers to provide personal protective equipment. Now, workers in hazardous jobs which require safety gear—like hard hats or protective glasses—must be provided this equipment, instead of being asked to buy it themselves.

Advocate for increases in the minimum wage and push for living wage ordinances. Unions have been instrumental in efforts to increase the federal minimum wage, state minimum wages and in the successful living wage movement which has already resulted in over 150 local living wage laws nationwide.

Reduce wage inequality. Unions raise wages the most for low- and middle-wage workers and workers without college degrees.

Invest worker pension funds to rebuild communities In June 2006, the AFL-CIO launched the Gulf Coast Revitalization Program, a $1 billion housing and economic development program to create low- and moderate-income housing, a low-cost mortgage program, health facilities, job training services, and thousands of high-wage union jobs throughout the region. The Gulf Coast program builds on the success of similar AFL-CIO investment strategies to develop affordable housing in Chicago and to help New York City recover from the devastating terrorist attacks of September 11th. Union pension funds invested $750 million in post-9/11 New York.

Are crucial in passing legislation benefiting all workers, including:

Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007, providing an increase in the federal minimum wage.

The Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970, a comprehensive federal law ensuring safety in the workplace.

Workers' compensation laws, giving workers injured on the job medical coverage and compensation for lost time.

Mine safety laws strengthening mine safety standards and protecting the rights of mine workers.

The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, creating the 40-hour work week and the first minimum wage.

The Social Security Act of 1935, providing benefits to unemployed and retired workers.
Union members:

Earn higher wages. Union members earn 30% more than non-union workers.

Have more training. Union workers are more likely to have access to formal, on-the-job training, making employees more skilled and adding to productivity.5

Have safer workplaces. Union workers are often better trained on health and safety rules and union workplaces are more likely to enforce Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) standards.6

Are more likely to receive workers’ compensation. Union members also get their benefits faster, and return to work more quickly.7 When workers are injured, unions help workers through the often complicated process of filing for workers’ compensation and protect workers from employer retaliation.

Have health insurance. Nearly 80% of unionized workers receive employer-provided health insurance, compared with 49% of non-union workers. Union members are also more likely to have short-term disability and life insurance coverage.

American Rights at Work

 

[daveman]

Got some real winners on the board at ARW.

 

[DaGoose]

Got some real winners on the board at ARW.

There you go!! If you can't dispute the facts then go after the messengers!!!

 

[hortysir]

Compare the state of the working classes BEFORE unions existed.

How's it match up to how we live now?

On the whole unions made it possible for most of us to have the quality of lives we enjoy.

I totally agree with you on that point.
Unions were instrumental in getting labor laws implemented and very helpful in nudging private companies into more appealing benefits.
Nowadays they're not any different than the deep-pocket corporations they so despise.

 

[DaGoose]

Compare the state of the working classes BEFORE unions existed.

How's it match up to how we live now?

On the whole unions made it possible for most of us to have the quality of lives we enjoy.

I totally agree with you on that point.
Unions were instrumental in getting labor laws implemented and very helpful in nudging private companies into more appealing benefits.
Nowadays they're not any different than the deep-pocket corporations they so despise.

REPOST:

To say that Unions "served their purpose and are no longer needed" flies in the face of reality.

Many years ago Caterpillar went on strike to fight the company's determination to put in a two tiered wage and benefit scale. The Union went on strike and lost. Now jobs that used to be full time and paid competitive wages and benefits are now part time and average $13 per hour with no benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.). Their CEO is among the highest paid and the company is making record profits. All this on the backs of the workers making the product.

When the trucking industry deregulated (which broke the Union) jobs that used to be good, well paying jobs went by the wayside. Sure, it opened up a lot of jobs but these jobs, on average, pay $30k-40k per year for driving 6 days a week and being away from home for weeks at a time. "Truck broke down 500 miles from home? Tough. You're not getting paid for the three days it takes to get fixed".

Recent figures show that the foreign, non-union auto makers in the US are beginning to pay wages and benefits comparable to their Union counterparts. Why? To keep Unions out. What do you suppose would happen to these great jobs if the UAW was broken in Detroit? I know and I think you do too.

 

[antagon]

Compare the state of the working classes BEFORE unions existed.

How's it match up to how we live now?

On the whole unions made it possible for most of us to have the quality of lives we enjoy.

I totally agree with you on that point.
Unions were instrumental in getting labor laws implemented and very helpful in nudging private companies into more appealing benefits.
Nowadays they're not any different than the deep-pocket corporations they so despise.

REPOST:

To say that Unions "served their purpose and are no longer needed" flies in the face of reality.

Many years ago Caterpillar went on strike to fight the company's determination to put in a two tiered wage and benefit scale. The Union went on strike and lost. Now jobs that used to be full time and paid competitive wages and benefits are now part time and average $13 per hour with no benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.). Their CEO is among the highest paid and the company is making record profits. All this on the backs of the workers making the product.

When the trucking industry deregulated (which broke the Union) jobs that used to be good, well paying jobs went by the wayside. Sure, it opened up a lot of jobs but these jobs, on average, pay $30k-40k per year for driving 6 days a week and being away from home for weeks at a time. "Truck broke down 500 miles from home? Tough. You're not getting paid for the three days it takes to get fixed".

Recent figures show that the foreign, non-union auto makers in the US are beginning to pay wages and benefits comparable to their Union counterparts. Why? To keep Unions out. What do you suppose would happen to these great jobs if the UAW was broken in Detroit? I know and I think you do too.

reading this sounds to me like the granular detail whereby unions effect wage inflation and the history whereby that artificial bubble finally bust. the unaccounted cost was their impact on the overall competitiveness of the US labor market, a factor which is responsible for a bad hand for semi-skilled american labor in the global economy... and all for the benefit of the few.

this is your reality behind the purposes served by unions.

 

[daveman]

Got some real winners on the board at ARW.

There you go!! If you can't dispute the facts then go after the messengers!!!

Yeah, you can call them "facts" if you want. Personally, I'd stay away from any organization associated with La Raza.

But don't let me stop you from parroting union propaganda. Yer doin' a hell of a job!

 

[DaGoose]

I totally agree with you on that point.
Unions were instrumental in getting labor laws implemented and very helpful in nudging private companies into more appealing benefits.
Nowadays they're not any different than the deep-pocket corporations they so despise.

REPOST:

To say that Unions "served their purpose and are no longer needed" flies in the face of reality.

Many years ago Caterpillar went on strike to fight the company's determination to put in a two tiered wage and benefit scale. The Union went on strike and lost. Now jobs that used to be full time and paid competitive wages and benefits are now part time and average $13 per hour with no benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.). Their CEO is among the highest paid and the company is making record profits. All this on the backs of the workers making the product.

When the trucking industry deregulated (which broke the Union) jobs that used to be good, well paying jobs went by the wayside. Sure, it opened up a lot of jobs but these jobs, on average, pay $30k-40k per year for driving 6 days a week and being away from home for weeks at a time. "Truck broke down 500 miles from home? Tough. You're not getting paid for the three days it takes to get fixed".

Recent figures show that the foreign, non-union auto makers in the US are beginning to pay wages and benefits comparable to their Union counterparts. Why? To keep Unions out. What do you suppose would happen to these great jobs if the UAW was broken in Detroit? I know and I think you do too.

reading this sounds to me like the granular detail whereby unions effect wage inflation and the history whereby that artificial bubble finally bust. the unaccounted cost was their impact on the overall competitiveness of the US labor market, a factor which is responsible for a bad hand for semi-skilled american labor in the global economy... and all for the benefit of the few.

this is your reality behind the purposes served by unions.

Thanks. But you give us way too much credit.

Got some real winners on the board at ARW.

There you go!! If you can't dispute the facts then go after the messengers!!!

Yeah, you can call them "facts" if you want. Personally, I'd stay away from any organization associated with La Raza.

But don't let me stop you from parroting union propaganda. Yer doin' a hell of a job!

I really wish I could say the same about you. I'm just glad you're not arguing for my side.

 

[antagon]

REPOST:

To say that Unions "served their purpose and are no longer needed" flies in the face of reality.

Many years ago Caterpillar went on strike to fight the company's determination to put in a two tiered wage and benefit scale. The Union went on strike and lost. Now jobs that used to be full time and paid competitive wages and benefits are now part time and average $13 per hour with no benefits (pension, health insurance, etc.). Their CEO is among the highest paid and the company is making record profits. All this on the backs of the workers making the product.

When the trucking industry deregulated (which broke the Union) jobs that used to be good, well paying jobs went by the wayside. Sure, it opened up a lot of jobs but these jobs, on average, pay $30k-40k per year for driving 6 days a week and being away from home for weeks at a time. "Truck broke down 500 miles from home? Tough. You're not getting paid for the three days it takes to get fixed".

Recent figures show that the foreign, non-union auto makers in the US are beginning to pay wages and benefits comparable to their Union counterparts. Why? To keep Unions out. What do you suppose would happen to these great jobs if the UAW was broken in Detroit? I know and I think you do too.

reading this sounds to me like the granular detail whereby unions effect wage inflation and the history whereby that artificial bubble finally bust. the unaccounted cost was their impact on the overall competitiveness of the US labor market, a factor which is responsible for a bad hand for semi-skilled american labor in the global economy... and all for the benefit of the few.

this is your reality behind the purposes served by unions.

Thanks. But you give us way too much credit.

that's what CAT and the transportation industry said. that's what toyota's saying under their breath to chrysler.