CDZ Unions for car makers vs. unions for teachers...school vouchers vs. car vouchers...

[Toronado3800]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

 

[JBond]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

There are many issues. There are good cops and bad cops. There are good teachers and bad teachers. Every profession has useless losers.

 

[Care4all]

jebus....

bad teachers are not some major problem and causing the educational problems in this nation.... if you are foolish enough to think so....then so be it.

Teachers don't get to choose the curriculum's, teachers don't get a say in anything now a days....and THAT'S THE PROBLEM....they are being micro managed and taught to teach to a test.....pass the test, pass the test, pass the test.... when schools were GOOD, teachers could be teachers and could teach the way they felt was best for their class, not to some state exam that has to have so many students passing it, in order to get money for their school.... it's all bull crud.

it's the board of education and administrators and federal mandates that are the problem.... not a silly union....

 

[beagle9]

jebus....

bad teachers are not some major problem and causing the educational problems in this nation.... if you are foolish enough to think so....then so be it.

Teachers don't get to choose the curriculum's, teachers don't get a say in anything now a days....and THAT'S THE PROBLEM....they are being micro managed and taught to teach to a test.....pass the test, pass the test, pass the test.... when schools were GOOD, teachers could be teachers and could teach the way they felt was best for their class, not to some state exam that has to have so many students passing it, in order to get money for their school.... it's all bull crud.

it's the board of education and administrators and federal mandates that are the problem.... not a silly union....

. Nothing wrong with uniformity in education, and uniformity in exit exams for the masses. If there are schools whom want to exceed or raise the levels to achieve higher learning or reach higher goals there is nothing wrong with that either. Where the problem comes in, is when the education system is adjusted downwards in order to accommodate for the lowest accademic standards in which brings down the kids and the system over time. It's the same in the country with what's happened with our wages, jobs, and standards we once kept. We have nearly been brought down to our knees in the public sectors because of globalism, leftist thinking, loser mentalities, misguided thinking, government dependency, socialism, communism, radicalism, idiocy and you name it.

 

[beagle9]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

There are many issues. There are good cops and bad cops. There are good teachers and bad teachers. Every profession has useless losers.

. Fire the bad ones.. Problem solved.

 

[beagle9]

. Are you saying that charter schools would defy law's in this country ?

Only if their CEOs want to keep their bonuses by lying to their stockholders.

. Wouldn't government regulators be keeping an eye on things ? Would these schools have no oversight what so ever ? All that needs to happen, is the laws be obeyed, and results happen.

Profit and loss.

. Nothing wrong with profits (everyone benefits), and if not run right then everyone loses including the top. Must have incentives to win, and oversight to ensure corruption doesn't take hold in any form in which causes a catastrophic loss.

The profit motive means that special needs kids are too expensive to take on. So are discipline problems, and kids who aren't bright enough to make their schools test scores shine. Charter schools have turned away children of colour, children whose parents are gay, or the "wrong" religion.

Many religious schools and charter schools exist to discriminate against people the parents don't want around their snowflake children.

. Just fear mongering you have going here. Hey the way some parents raise their children, and the ways that some kids turn out or act out, then of course no one wants them around their kids, and the kids don't need to be forced to be around children who have been brainwashed by their parents or to be forced to be around kids who have turned bad on their own. We need alternative schools that are set up to accept kids that need rehabilitated in order to get them the specific help that they need. Sending bad kids (after find out through their actions they are bad), to schools with the good kids or to the same school has been a very foolish thing. If want to bring a nation over time to it's knees, then sending bad kids to school with the good kids is the way to do it, and then not firing bad teachers is another way to do it.

 

[2aguy]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

do you think american workers should be paid as if they're mexican or chinese or indonesian?

How is that question worthy of praise.....I think American workers should get paid as much as the market can bear.

 

[2aguy]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Public schools also accommodate the disabled, or those with, "pre-existing conditions".

And school vouchers would stop that how? Why is it that those on the left assume that school vouchers will not help the disabled...? A student with a disability will have the same money, maybe even more with their voucher....and if a school wants those voucher dollars they will have to compete for them...right now....public schools are some of the worst educational locations for disabled students......

 

[2aguy]

Public schools also accommodate the disabled, or those with, "pre-existing conditions".

. Good grief... Kidding right ??

Only those with diversions which are usually considered fallacies, must be kidding.

. Are you saying that charter schools would defy law's in this country ?

Only if their CEOs want to keep their bonuses by lying to their stockholders.

. Wouldn't government regulators be keeping an eye on things ? Would these schools have no oversight what so ever ? All that needs to happen, is the laws be obeyed, and results happen.

The first line of over sight would be the parents...who for the first time would have direct control over their kids education...they won't be trapped in a bad school simply because the only school they are allowed to attend is the one in their district........if a school sucks, the parents can actually much more easily remove their kids and send them to another one....

Right now...if you have a bad public school, and can't afford a private school, you can't simply send your kid to the public school in the next town....the unions tightly control this and if you are caught, your kid will be sent back to the hell hole....with school vouchers.....you could take your kid a town over, to the goood school, and not have to be trapped.....this is what the teachers unions fear...

 

[2aguy]

. Are you saying that charter schools would defy law's in this country ?

Only if their CEOs want to keep their bonuses by lying to their stockholders.

. Wouldn't government regulators be keeping an eye on things ? Would these schools have no oversight what so ever ? All that needs to happen, is the laws be obeyed, and results happen.

Profit and loss.

. Nothing wrong with profits (everyone benefits), and if not run right then everyone loses including the top. Must have incentives to win, and oversight to ensure corruption doesn't take hold in any form in which causes a catastrophic loss.

The profit motive means that special needs kids are too expensive to take on. So are discipline problems, and kids who aren't bright enough to make their schools test scores shine. Charter schools have turned away children of colour, children whose parents are gay, or the "wrong" religion.

Many religious schools and charter schools exist to discriminate against people the parents don't want around their snowflake children.

No...that is untrue. The profit motive means that the vouchers of the special needs kids give them power......they can find schools that actually care about their kids and their needs......instead of warehousing them in public school hell holes.....

Discinpline problems...schools will open that will take those kids........and will give them the attention they need....

You guys obviously don't understand the profit motive......you make money solving peoples problems.....the better you solve the problem the more profit you make....

Charter schools are just parts of the public school system....we need the G.I. bill for kids.....Charter schools are limited by the teachers unions who fight them tooth and nail, limiting the number of kids who can go.......with vouchers...more schools will open....schools that will actually have to educate children...or the parents will take their voucheer money to another school.

And who cares if you send your kid to a religious school.....it is your voucher....if they only want to teach sharia...you can use your voucher for that.....that is the magic of vouchers...you can send your kid where you want.....no one is forcing you to go to any particular school....

 

[2aguy]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

Both.

And vouchers should be for the total bill for educating the child......just like the G.I. Bill.....

And why should a school have to accept violent, abusive kids......that is the other miracle of vouchers.....normal kids will no longer be trapped in hell hole, gang infested schools......and those kids who are violent...can take their vouchers to schools that are geared toward dealing with them...and maybe, actually helping them.....

 

[2aguy]

jebus....

bad teachers are not some major problem and causing the educational problems in this nation.... if you are foolish enough to think so....then so be it.

Teachers don't get to choose the curriculum's, teachers don't get a say in anything now a days....and THAT'S THE PROBLEM....they are being micro managed and taught to teach to a test.....pass the test, pass the test, pass the test.... when schools were GOOD, teachers could be teachers and could teach the way they felt was best for their class, not to some state exam that has to have so many students passing it, in order to get money for their school.... it's all bull crud.

it's the board of education and administrators and federal mandates that are the problem.... not a silly union....

Vouchers would allow teachers those freedoms they don't have now. Teachers could combine and start their own school...without government bureaucrats dictating the very things you are complaining about.....they could do this because vouchers will go to the best schools, and the teachers won't be beholden to bad teachers or stupid decisions by school boards.

The union is the problem.......

 

[beagle9]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

Both.

And vouchers should be for the total bill for educating the child......just like the G.I. Bill.....

And why should a school have to accept violent, abusive kids......that is the other miracle of vouchers.....normal kids will no longer be trapped in hell hole, gang infested schools......and those kids who are violent...can take their vouchers to schools that are geared toward dealing with them...and maybe, actually helping them.....

. Violent, and troubled kids shouldn't be granted a voucher to a school of choice, but instead they should be evaluated, and then sent to a school set up specifically to handle and work with troubled kids. The incentive to be good should come in the forms of having freedom of choice granted, and the kid's parents choose the kids school (if to young to do it for themselves), and the older kids will do it beyond the age of 12 years old with their parents permission.. We must go back to the merit system in everything we do, and the biggest recognition should be given to those who just want to be good without being forced to be good outside of their homes.

It is not the government's job to raise people's children, but it can provide the tools and facilities that celebrate good character, work ethic, manors, and volunteer contributions in which a child yearns to give in life, and yearns to receive if put in the work for it. I guarantee you that the special schools set up to help those who may have been side tracked in life, will have a greater success rate sometimes than the ones who needed not as much of a push in life, otherwise the low maintenance kid's hunger to succeed might be less than a young person who started out in a struggle in life (Struggling kids football team beats the spoiled kids football team).... LOL........ It's why this nation has always pulled for the under dog, but the under dog has to be given the chance as well by placing them properly according to their levels and talents into the proper environment to get well in, and then to thrive in.

If a bad kid doesn't come around after say age 15, then maybe school isn't the kids thing in life after all, so at 16 the kid who has become a young man will start work in life. Of course there will always be opportunity for the young man to find his way in life, and if wants could continue his education in various ways if he so chooses. I say he in that because girls are not like boy's, where as they (the girls) want to succeed most always in everything they do.

 

[Toronado3800]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

I have once again changed my mind about vouchers. I am worrying about the economic viability out in the country and in the ghetto.

Also:

We had a private college go under and cause a bit of trouble here. Lord forbid that was a grade school going belly up mid year.

Here in town the expensive private schools are worth it if you have a child in the average is to above average ability range. The price competitive private schools sorta suck. They only reason they have decent numbers is they can kick out kids who are going to ruin their stats.

Lets pay teachers more so we get the best applicants possible.
Lets fire teachers who under perform.
Lets hold back kids who either fail on grades or can't pass tests given by the Feds (who don't have an interest in making this or that school look good).

 

[2aguy]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

I have once again changed my mind about vouchers. I am worrying about the economic viability out in the country and in the ghetto.

Also:

We had a private college go under and cause a bit of trouble here. Lord forbid that was a grade school going belly up mid year.

Here in town the expensive private schools are worth it if you have a child in the average is to above average ability range. The price competitive private schools sorta suck. They only reason they have decent numbers is they can kick out kids who are going to ruin their stats.

Lets pay teachers more so we get the best applicants possible.
Lets fire teachers who under perform.
Lets hold back kids who either fail on grades or can't pass tests given by the Feds (who don't have an interest in making this or that school look good).

How about you just give parents the voucher and let them fix those problems ...........otherwise you are just perpetuating the union/politician scam....

 

[Toronado3800]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

I have once again changed my mind about vouchers. I am worrying about the economic viability out in the country and in the ghetto.

Also:

We had a private college go under and cause a bit of trouble here. Lord forbid that was a grade school going belly up mid year.

Here in town the expensive private schools are worth it if you have a child in the average is to above average ability range. The price competitive private schools sorta suck. They only reason they have decent numbers is they can kick out kids who are going to ruin their stats.

Lets pay teachers more so we get the best applicants possible.
Lets fire teachers who under perform.
Lets hold back kids who either fail on grades or can't pass tests given by the Feds (who don't have an interest in making this or that school look good).

How about you just give parents the voucher and let them fix those problems ...........otherwise you are just perpetuating the union/politician scam....

Because I believe that will make the problems worse.

I will meet you on firing more teachers if you give them pay raises though.

 

[2aguy]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

I have once again changed my mind about vouchers. I am worrying about the economic viability out in the country and in the ghetto.

Also:

We had a private college go under and cause a bit of trouble here. Lord forbid that was a grade school going belly up mid year.

Here in town the expensive private schools are worth it if you have a child in the average is to above average ability range. The price competitive private schools sorta suck. They only reason they have decent numbers is they can kick out kids who are going to ruin their stats.

Lets pay teachers more so we get the best applicants possible.
Lets fire teachers who under perform.
Lets hold back kids who either fail on grades or can't pass tests given by the Feds (who don't have an interest in making this or that school look good).

How about you just give parents the voucher and let them fix those problems ...........otherwise you are just perpetuating the union/politician scam....

Because I believe that will make the problems worse.

I will meet you on firing more teachers if you give them pay raises though.

Vouchers fix the teacher pay problem and the bad teacher problem.......they will pay the good teachers with their vouchers, and the bad teachers will be fired because they aren't doing their job.....all through vouchers...putting the power in the hands of the parents.....it works for every other product in the country....and it will fix our education system.

 

[Toronado3800]

In another thread, Ford union employees and their benefits were discussed as a way to say that if school vouchers were ever universal, teachers would suffer...and this is not true since the comparison between the Ford Union Employee and the Teacher union employee are not even close to being the same.

Ford union employees, at the end of the day, have to compete with other car companies for essentially "Car Vouchers" to put it one way. The voucher is essentially what you pay for your car...if they make a bad car you take your car "voucher" and buy a Toyota, or a Dodge, or a Kia....so the better the car company does, as assessed by how many "vouchers" they get, the more money the unions can legitimately demand.....and often get....

Teachers unions? They are completely disconnected from the end product ...the success of their students. If they last a few years, they get tenure, and cannot be fired, regardless if they are actually getting students to learn the subjects they are teaching. When you have a bad 2nd grade teacher, who passes through a student who can't read at grade level or do math at grade level...that "product", the student...goes forward anyway......and then they are behind in 3rd grade, and so on......so by the time the child drops out of high school.....you can't just pin it on one teacher...who you couldn't replace anyway....

School vouchers would change this dynamic...if a parent sees that their child is not learning, they can take that voucher to another school to get a better "product"...an educated child.....now, a teacher is accountable for the end product.....and the school they work for has a reason to hire the best teachers and to pay those teachers good salaries...since the teacher makes the product that gets the school the "voucher."

So comparing Ford Union employees to teacher's unions is not the right comparison...since one is private, and must create a competitive product, and the other is public sector with no connection to the end product.....

Were you fixin to debate vouchers or unions?

I love the idea standardized tests to determine teacher raises and the like.

I would consider vouchers if we could let the state fix tuition rates at ALL schools. Something like, want me to legalize vouchers to get out of going to your cruddy public school? Fine, all the voucher receiving school can receive is the same $4500 (or whatever), the voucher must accept everyone by random lot and they ARE NOT allowed to kick kids out w/o arrests happening at their school.

Unions, they have been soo important there are large branches of the government now doing their jobs. The future of unions I am not certain of. IMO we need to keep unions viable enough to scare businesses into treating their employees good enough they don't unionize.

I have once again changed my mind about vouchers. I am worrying about the economic viability out in the country and in the ghetto.

Also:

We had a private college go under and cause a bit of trouble here. Lord forbid that was a grade school going belly up mid year.

Here in town the expensive private schools are worth it if you have a child in the average is to above average ability range. The price competitive private schools sorta suck. They only reason they have decent numbers is they can kick out kids who are going to ruin their stats.

Lets pay teachers more so we get the best applicants possible.
Lets fire teachers who under perform.
Lets hold back kids who either fail on grades or can't pass tests given by the Feds (who don't have an interest in making this or that school look good).

How about you just give parents the voucher and let them fix those problems ...........otherwise you are just perpetuating the union/politician scam....

Because I believe that will make the problems worse.

I will meet you on firing more teachers if you give them pay raises though.

Vouchers fix the teacher pay problem and the bad teacher problem.......they will pay the good teachers with their vouchers, and the bad teachers will be fired because they aren't doing their job.....all through vouchers...putting the power in the hands of the parents.....it works for every other product in the country....and it will fix our education system.

Schools are different. People virtually have to use them.

Also, I have gone to public and private schools. As stated earlier I am not impressed with the cost effectiveness of the private schools so I feel private schooling will be worse.

Do you have any statistics which say private grade and high schools are better?

 

[there4eyeM]

The original idea was democratic accessibility of necessary intellectual skills for participation in a healthy democracy. Schools were local and parent participation assumed to be active. The family today seems absent in character and adulthood formation. Schools can't overcome that handicap.
As for the premise that car production is somehow equivalent to students; "just, wow!"

 

[Care4all]

jebus....

bad teachers are not some major problem and causing the educational problems in this nation.... if you are foolish enough to think so....then so be it.

Teachers don't get to choose the curriculum's, teachers don't get a say in anything now a days....and THAT'S THE PROBLEM....they are being micro managed and taught to teach to a test.....pass the test, pass the test, pass the test.... when schools were GOOD, teachers could be teachers and could teach the way they felt was best for their class, not to some state exam that has to have so many students passing it, in order to get money for their school.... it's all bull crud.

it's the board of education and administrators and federal mandates that are the problem.... not a silly union....

. Nothing wrong with uniformity in education, and uniformity in exit exams for the masses. If there are schools whom want to exceed or raise the levels to achieve higher learning or reach higher goals there is nothing wrong with that either. Where the problem comes in, is when the education system is adjusted downwards in order to accommodate for the lowest accademic standards in which brings down the kids and the system over time. It's the same in the country with what's happened with our wages, jobs, and standards we once kept. We have nearly been brought down to our knees in the public sectors because of globalism, leftist thinking, loser mentalities, misguided thinking, government dependency, socialism, communism, radicalism, idiocy and you name it.

Then Why are you trying to union bust the teachers?

The federal Gvt, the State governor who picks half of the State's School Board of education, the people who force them to teach the curriculum you don't like, the people who develop the curriculum, .....the Admin, the principles...who are NOT even part of the teachers unions....

The PARENTS, who aren't parenting

But nnnnnooooooooo, it's always the Teachers and the weakest unions in the nation in most States fault.....

It's bull crud.