Two Questions that non-LGBT-Q Supporters of Trans Rights Must Answer to be Credible

[Seymour Flops]

There are two questions that should be required before you even discuss how you think that transgender people should have all rights and privileges enjoyed by cisgender people of the gender they are transitioning to.

For this thread, I'll talk about transwomen who want to be able to use which ever bathroom, changing room, or locker room they choose. Specifically, biological men who identify as women and expect others to affirm that by saying nothing when they go into private women's spaces.

If you support that, your two questions are:

1) How far along in the transition does a bio-male have to be for us to have to accept that they are a woman or girl? Do they have to dress like a woman? All the time, or can they just change into a girl's swimsuit for the meet, and otherwise avoid feminine cothes or makeup? Does it not even matter because "girls clothes" and "boys clothes" are just social constructs anyway?

I'm chubby, bearded, balding, and wear men's clothes. If I were to walk into a women's bathroom or locker room, and there are people around who notice me walking in, should they say anything, either to me or to management? Or should they assume that by walking into the women's room, I indicate that I am a transwoman and mind their own business? If they ask and I tell them I'm trans, should that be the end of the discussion?

If that is not enough, then where do you draw the line?

2) Would you have sex with a pro-op transwoman? Assume that - other than having a penis - she is attractive enough for you to be interested if the opportunity was there. If you're married or otherwise committed, you can still answer the question as a hypothetical. I'm happily married also, but we won't go to heck or have to sleep on the couch if we speculate about whether we'd have sex with the St Pauli Girl vs. the Bud Lite Girl.

These questions are key to your being sincere abut supporting transwomen and girls "rights" to female private spaces. If you would not have sex with a pre-op trans because the penis would make you so uncomfortable that you could not enjoy sex, then you have no business at all ridiculing and mocking a fourteen year old girl who would be uncomfortable in a locker room with a girl or woman with a penis.

 

[DGS49]

My question all along is, when a tranny becomes emotionally needy, who or what (the fuck) will be the object of their affection or desire?

I have a 15-year-old trans-boy in my family. She apparently has taken puberty blockers and male hormones, but with whom or what would she couple? No actual girl would want to have anything to do with her (sexually), nor would any boy.

Can anyone answer this question? Trannies are necessarily and inevitably going to end up alone and depressed.

 

[Seymour Flops]

My question all along is, when a tranny becomes emotionally needy, who or what (the fuck) will be the object of their affection or desire?

I have a 15-year-old trans-boy in my family. She apparently has taken puberty blockers and male hormones, but with whom or what would she couple? No actual girl would want to have anything to do with her (sexually), nor would any boy.

Can anyone answer this question? Trannies are necessarily and inevitably going to end up alone and depressed.

I may be slammed for this, but in my opinion even when transpeople find someone who wants to have sex with them, it cannot lead to the bonding and committed relationship that male-female sex commonly leads to. Human heterosexual intercourse is nearly ideal for creating attachments that lead to pair bonding that facilitates raising children who take years to be able to be independent. Almost as if it were designed to be that.

I don't believe that any kind of homesexual coupling can lead to this kind of strong relationships.

Your family member will likely find people interested in sex with them as a novelty, or someone whose special tastes are for transboys. But the selection will be limited and they will have to take pot luck as far as them being attracted to that person.

Transwomen have it easier in finding sex partners. In spite of the crickets on this question, there are many self-identified hetero males who like a girl with something extra. Witness the large volume of trans porn and the popularity of drag queens. Maybe they can't find bio-women, or maybe they like dick, but not the hairy backs and lack of boobs they'd get from gay men.

But they cannot have that face-to-face missionary position intercourse with kissing and full body hugging that anchors normal relationships.

 

[JoeB131]

1) How far along in the transition does a bio-male have to be for us to have to accept that they are a woman or girl? Do they have to dress like a woman? All the time, or can they just change into a girl's swimsuit for the meet, and otherwise avoid feminine cothes or makeup? Does it not even matter because "girls clothes" and "boys clothes" are just social constructs anyway?

I think it would depend entirely on the circumstances.

For instance, I would have no problem restricting trans-female athletes from competition until they have undergone at least one year of hormone therapy. On the other hand, if a coworker merely wants to be referred to her by her preferred pronouns, that doesn't really cost me anything, and it's just polite.

2) Would you have sex with a pro-op transwoman? Assume that - other than having a penis - she is attractive enough for you to be interested if the opportunity was there. If you're married or otherwise committed, you can still answer the question as a hypothetical. I'm happily married also, but we won't go to heck or have to sleep on the couch if we speculate about whether we'd have sex with the St Pauli Girl vs. the Bud Lite Girl.

Assuming you mean pre-op... um, no, I wouldn't. I probably also wouldn't have sex with a post-op trans woman. I also wouldn't have sex with something like 90% of cisgendered women, because for various reasons they wouldn't appeal to me. I have very specific tastes in what turns me on sexually.

I don't see women as "I'd like to fuck that" as my first consideration.

 

[rightwinger]

To me, you should have assumed the orientation you are associating with full time. I don’t care if you still have your junk, it is none of my business.

I also think Trans women should not be allowed to compete in womens sports. It is too big an advantage.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I think it would depend entirely on the circumstances.

For instance, I would have no problem restricting trans-female athletes from competition until they have undergone at least one year of hormone therapy. On the other hand, if a coworker merely wants to be referred to her by her preferred pronouns, that doesn't really cost me anything, and it's just polite.

I agree with the second. I'll call people what they want to be called, so long as it isn't too long like, "your grand imperial majestic exaltedness."

The first is more reasonable than "if they say they are a girl, they are a girl" approach, but one year of hormones will not over come going through male puberty followed by X years living and training as a male.

Assuming you mean pre-op... um, no, I wouldn't. I probably also wouldn't have sex with a post-op trans woman. I also wouldn't have sex with something like 90% of cisgendered women, because for various reasons they wouldn't appeal to me. I have very specific tastes in what turns me on sexually.

I don't see women as "I'd like to fuck that" as my first consideration.

So, if a woman met your specific tastes to the letter, except . . . she has a penis, that would be a hard no for you. For obvious reasons. You start making out with a woman, the only hard dick you want to see pop up is yours. You have a right to feel that way, and no one should call you a "transphobe," or say that you have an obligation to accommodate women with penises.

Nor should a fourteen year old girl, or a forty-four year old woman, for that matter, be ridiculed for not wanting to see a swinging penis a few feet from her face as she is changing to try out for swim team.

The fact that we men are not acting more strongly to protect women from these entitled punks who think they have a right to treat women and girls that way is a shame to our nation.

 

[JoeB131]

I agree with the second. I'll call people what they want to be called, so long as it isn't too long like, "your grand imperial majestic exaltedness."

The first is more reasonable than "if they say they are a girl, they are a girl" approach, but one year of hormones will not over come going through male puberty followed by X years living and training as a male.

Actually, the science says otherwise. Usually a year is enough to severely reduce muscle mass.

Here's the thing... I really don't care that much about athletics, and if you took away the Title IX scam forcing universities to take the dumb girls who can run a little faster than the smart ones, you'd be amazed how little anyone would care about this "issue".

So, if a woman met your specific tastes to the letter, except . . . she has a penis, that would be a hard no for you.

Uh, yes, having a vagina would be one of those specific sexual tastes.

You start making out with a woman, the only hard dick you want to see pop up is yours. You have a right to feel that way, and no one should call you a "transphobe," or say that you have an obligation to accommodate women with penises.

My problem in that case would be the lack of honesty, not the physical issue. I have a lot of relationship where I was lied to on a fairly important point, and that's where I ended them.

Nor should a fourteen year old girl, or a forty-four year old woman, for that matter, be ridiculed for not wanting to see a swinging penis a few feet from her face as she is changing to try out for swim team.

Then they shouldn't go into a public locker room.

The fact that we men are not acting more strongly to protect women from these entitled punks who think they have a right to treat women and girls that way is a shame to our nation.

No, the shame is we are finding yet another marginalized group to hate on for no good reason.

The way you guys carry on, you think there's a hoarde of trans people out there waiting to get your children and terrorize your women.

I'm 61 years old. In my whole 61 years, I encountered all of two trans people in my life. One was at a bar that my girlfriend at the time talked me into going to. (Definitely not my scene.)

The other was an officer I knew in the service who came out years later (because he had the money and influence to do so.)

But yet you guys are just imagining stuff to be scared of... when there are just far more serious and pressing concerns.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Nor should a fourteen year old girl, or a forty-four year old woman, for that matter, be ridiculed for not wanting to see a swinging penis a few feet from her face as she is changing to try out for swim team.

Then they shouldn't go into a public locker room.

The entire purpose of a women's locker room is to give women and girls a place where they can change clothes, without a male present.

Why should women and girls be asked to give that up, in order to pander to some disgusting mentally- and morally-fucked up male freak?

If anyone should stay out of public locker rooms, it should be the freak that has mutilated himself to the point that he doesn't fit in either the men's nor the women' locker room. There is no reason why any sane person should sacrifice anything to pander to such a freak.

If you were not such a depraved misogynistic piece of shit, then you would understand the responsibility that all real men feel to protect women and girls from exactly the sort of fucked-up perverts whose side you take against women and girls.

 

[Woodznutz]

Trannies should be able to find other trannies to bond with.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Uh, yes, having a vagina would be one of those specific sexual tastes.


My problem in that case would be the lack of honesty, not the physical issue. I have a lot of relationship where I was lied to on a fairly important point, and that's where I ended them.

Now, it seems that you are being slippery. I'm going to take your first answer, that you would not have sex with a pre-op woman. They are not a woman, so it is perfectly natural that you would not.

Then they shouldn't go into a public locker room.

Yeah, the snotty little bitches!

That's aburd. I'll echo what Bob said above, with less strident language. Not faulting Bob, but I don't call menally ill people freaks. Still, what he says is 100% correct.

Some feminists are upset about the ruination of women's sports. But in a way they are hoisted on their own petard. It was feminists who spend decades telling us that it is sexist for men to be protective of women and girls. That has created men who get angry when women "put themselves in a position" to need to be defended.

In the case you are talking about, it is a fourteen year old girl who just wants to try out for the swim team.

No, the shame is we are finding yet another marginalized group to hate on for no good reason.

The way you guys carry on, you think there's a hoarde of trans people out there waiting to get your children and terrorize your women.

One is too many, and there are way more than that.

Say, you're right, though. Should the fourteen year old who doesn't want to be exposed to grown men with penises have to stay out of all bathrooms and locker rooms for this tiny minority?

I'm 61 years old. In my whole 61 years, I encountered all of two trans people in my life. One was at a bar that my girlfriend at the time talked me into going to. (Definitely not my scene.)

The other was an officer I knew in the service who came out years later (because he had the money and influence to do so.)

You live in Chicago? Do you get out much? I live in Houston. Admittedly, we are the most diverse city in the world, including sexual minorities. But I see them all the time. My wife has two hobbies that we go to expos for and I always see some there.

I saw three of them in one visit with my son to a VA medical facility. On the way home, we stopped at a store and the person tending the counter was trans. It wasn't the Sarge's girl, this one was Hispanic.

I happen to be 61 also. I think you're just not spotting them.

But yet you guys are just imagining stuff to be scared of... when there are just far more serious and pressing concerns.

Yes, there are, but fortunately I can multitask.

 

[themirrorthief]

To me, you should have assumed the orientation you are associating with full time. I don’t care if you still have your junk, it is none of my business.

I also think Trans women should not be allowed to compete in womens sports. It is too big an advantage.

dont you mean you would prefer they still had their junk

 

[rightwinger]

dont you mean you would prefer they still had their junk

To me, that is none of my business

I can’t understand why Republicans obsess over it

 

[Seymour Flops]

To me, that is none of my business

I can’t understand why Republicans obsess over it

We prefer our young girls and women not be flashed when they go to the bathroom, changing room, or locker room.

Is that really beyond your understanding?

 

[rightwinger]

We prefer our young girls and women not be flashed when they go to the bathroom, changing room, or locker room.

Is that really beyond your understanding?

It really RARELY happens
The number of Transexuals in this country are extremely low
Most people rarely encounter a transexual in public life …let alone a public shower

 

[JoeB131]

The entire purpose of a women's locker room is to give women and girls a place where they can change clothes, without a male present.

Why should women and girls be asked to give that up, in order to pander to some disgusting mentally- and morally-fucked up male freak?

Um, it's called assumption of risk. If you have taken your flabby ass to a health club lately, you'd know that the health clubs put up big old signs absolving themselves of any responsibility. You take the risk your locker might be broken into. You take the risk the staff has hidden cameras. And yes, there is a very slight possibility that the lady in the next stall MIGHT have started life as a biological male.

If anyone should stay out of public locker rooms, it should be the freak that has mutilated himself to the point that he doesn't fit in either the men's nor the women' locker room. There is no reason why any sane person should sacrifice anything to pander to such a freak.

Stalker Bob, you are the last person to talk about "Sanity". We make sacrifices all the time, it's called respecting each other's rights. Frankly, I'd like to beat any Mormon missionaries who show up at my door with a baseball bat. But hey, we all have to make sacrifices. (I'd probably ruin their day by pointing out the truth about Joey Smith and his child brides. You still haven't gotten over it.)

If you were not such a depraved misogynistic piece of shit, then you would understand the responsibility that all real men feel to protect women and girls from exactly the sort of fucked-up perverts whose side you take against women and girls.

Uh, Bob, you belong to a cult that subjugates women to the point where they have to take valium to cope.

Two Studies Find Depression Widespread in Utah

Two studies find depression widespread in Utah.

abcnews.go.com

 

[JoeB131]

Now, it seems that you are being slippery. I'm going to take your first answer, that you would not have sex with a pre-op woman. They are not a woman, so it is perfectly natural that you would not.

Well, it would be more like I couldn't have sex with a pre-op trans-woman because she doesn't have a sex hole. (Sure, I could use the alternate holes, but what fun is that?)

Yeah, the snotty little bitches!

That's aburd. I'll echo what Bob said above, with less strident language. Not faulting Bob, but I don't call menally ill people freaks. Still, what he says is 100% correct.

Bob is not a well man. Here's the thing. Cisgender women have been peeing next to transgender women since the beginning of time. In fact, separate bathroom facilities is really a very recent invention in the west. They weren't mandated by law in the US until 1887.

Some feminists are upset about the ruination of women's sports. But in a way they are hoisted on their own petard. It was feminists who spend decades telling us that it is sexist for men to be protective of women and girls. That has created men who get angry when women "put themselves in a position" to need to be defended.

In the case you are talking about, it is a fourteen year old girl who just wants to try out for the swim team.

Wasn't the case I was talking about... but whatever.

A few points to unpack here. Frankly, I have more faith in women than you do. (It mostly seems to be men who get upset about this issue, anyway.) The only reason why "Women's Sports" are a thing was that feminists insisted that even though there was no real interest in watching women's sports, the universities had to offer programs and had to grant scholarships.

Okay, so, um, fine. In the very off chance on of their teammates is a trans-woman, they have to make accommodations. Just like we all had to make accommodations for these programs to exist to start with.

I'll admit, I have a bias. When I was paying for my college by serving in the National Guard and working to minimum wage jobs, someone I went to school with was this airhead who got in on a scholarship program. And even though UIC was not a "Sports school", we insisted on having a full athletics program. Because they couldn't fund it through tickets sales (No Football team and they couldn't give away tickets to the basketball team), it was paid for through student fees.

One is too many, and there are way more than that.

Say, you're right, though. Should the fourteen year old who doesn't want to be exposed to grown men with penises have to stay out of all bathrooms and locker rooms for this tiny minority?

I think we are all going to have to make adjustments. Frankly, the world got on just fine before separate privies were introduced in the late 19th century. In Japan, they still do communal bathing. It sounds a lot more like a cultural hangup than anything else.

Now, that said, if there is some truly outlandish behavior, I would expect their to be consequences.. it seems you want to hate on trans people for mere existing.

You live in Chicago? Do you get out much? I live in Houston. Admittedly, we are the most diverse city in the world, including sexual minorities. But I see them all the time. My wife has two hobbies that we go to expos for and I always see some there.

I saw three of them in one visit with my son to a VA medical facility. On the way home, we stopped at a store and the person tending the counter was trans. It wasn't the Sarge's girl, this one was Hispanic.

I happen to be 61 also. I think you're just not spotting them.

Or I'm not actively looking for them because I don't care. ( I suspect the VA might have more because that's one of the few places they can get treatment). Heck, I'll even admit I had no idea about that Guard Officer I mentioned until years later, because it came out on the news. (She's a cousin to the IL Governor). I did thing he/she was an odd duck... but he/she was rich, so he could afford to be.

Yes, there are, but fortunately I can multitask.

But can you prioritize. Look, I'm going to be honest, the only reason I care even a little about the transgender issue is because I enjoy watching religious nutters like Bob lose their ever loving minds. But in the cosmic scheme of things, there are much bigger problems to worry about.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

We prefer our young girls and women not be flashed when they go to the bathroom, changing room, or locker room.
Is that really beyond your understanding?

Also that they not have strange, creepy men, watching them in that setting.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It really RARELY happens
The number of Transexuals in this country are extremely low
Most people rarely encounter a transexual in public life …let alone a public shower

Again I ask:

If this is so rare, why does every biological female in the country - all 165 Million of them - have to give up their right to privacy to suit a tiny handful of biological males who either have a mental disorder that makes them hate their own biological gender, like to play dress up and have people pretend to believe they are what they represent, or for some other reason* like to go into the girls bathrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms?

I never see biological women and girls arguing vociferously for this "right" to go into the female private areas. I see liberal men telling women and girls that it's no big deal, and transwomen showing their toxic masculinity by making threats toward anyone who has the nerve to tell them that the Ladies Room isn't for them.

*What if the reason is "I don't like to see a bunch of naked dudes. But I don't mind seeing naked chicks at all." Do they have that right? Or is that right implied by the fact that we are not supposed to ask why they are going into the Girls locker room?

 

[JoeB131]

Again I ask:

If this is so rare, why does every biological female in the country - all 165 Million of them - have to give up their right to privacy to suit a tiny handful of biological males who either have a mental disorder that makes them hate their own biological gender, like to play dress up and have people pretend to believe they are what they represent, or for some other reason* like to go into the girls bathrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms?

Works on the assumption that transgenderism is a mental disorder, or that they hate their biological gender.

50 years ago, homosexuality was called a mental disorder.
100 years ago, women were considered mentally unstable because they had uteruses. (Hence, the word "Hysteria".)

No one should expect a 'right to privacy" in a public place. As stated cisgendered women have probably been peeing and pooping next to transgendered women since segregated bathrooms were invented in the 19th century. (Before that, no one really cared that much!)

I never see biological women and girls arguing vociferously for this "right" to go into the female private areas. I see liberal men telling women and girls that it's no big deal, and transwomen showing their toxic masculinity by making threats toward anyone who has the nerve to tell them that the Ladies Room isn't for them.

You mean like those uppity black people who insisted on using the same bathrooms white people got to use?

*What if the reason is "I don't like to see a bunch of naked dudes. But I don't mind seeing naked chicks at all." Do they have that right? Or is that right implied by the fact that we are not supposed to ask why they are going into the Girls locker room?

But we know why trans-women are going into the women's room. They identify as women.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Well, it would be more like I couldn't have sex with a pre-op trans-woman because she doesn't have a sex hole. (Sure, I could use the alternate holes, but what fun is that?)

Yes, you accidentally gave me what I was looking for: an admission that you don't like being close to exposed penises. Few heterosexual men do. So you should understand women and girls feeling the same way, is the point.

I get that you want to do some rhetorical gymnastics, but if you keep that up, I cannot give you credit for answering honestly.

Bob is not a well man. Here's the thing. Cisgender women have been peeing next to transgender women since the beginning of time. In fact, separate bathroom facilities is really a very recent invention in the west. They weren't mandated by law in the US until 1887.

Yes, and the ancient pagans sacrificed babies so that the weather gods would grant them the right amount of rain. That is not a justification for abortion. Neither is communal toilets of days gone by a justification for having separate private areas for each of the two genders, but allowing men to violate that privacy at will.

But, you may be able to answer this quetion than none of your felling trans allies have: Would the simplest way be to just take all of the "Men" and "Women," "Boys" and "Girls" signs off of bathrooms and then each public establishment will have two unisex bathrooms? In the future, each newly constructed building can have one.

Any objection to that idea?

Wasn't the case I was talking about... but whatever.

A few points to unpack here. Frankly, I have more faith in women than you do. (It mostly seems to be men who get upset about this issue, anyway.) The only reason why "Women's Sports" are a thing was that feminists insisted that even though there was no real interest in watching women's sports, the universities had to offer programs and had to grant scholarships.

Ok, yeah. I don't want to argue the value of women's sports as a way for you to derail the topic. Start a thread entitled "Women's Sports are Useless," and I'll be happy to take the counter point on that.

On that thread state whether you believe women's sports should be eliminated with women being welcome to try out for the men's team, which will be called "the teams."

I think we are all going to have to make adjustments. Frankly, the world got on just fine before separate privies were introduced in the late 19th century. In Japan, they still do communal bathing. It sounds a lot more like a cultural hangup than anything else.

Communal bathing, FKK, naturism, are different topics. You go into a nudist resort, or a nude sauna, and it would be silly to complain about what you see there. Go into a room marked "Women" and it makes sense to expect that only women will be there.

Now, that said, if there is some truly outlandish behavior, I would expect their to be consequences.. it seems you want to hate on trans people for mere existing.

A male walking into a women's locker room with several naked women, and stripping down in front of them while watching them is outlandish behavior.

I don't hate on them for existing. I see them all the time in Houston, and I have no problem with them. Frankly, out trannies know better than to think they should walk into women's bathrooms in public. I've never seen that once. It's a Texas thing where we respect each other. A very conservative church-going Texan being introduced to a transwoman who is not at all passable would say something like "well, bless your heart," and go home and pray for them.

The hate on this issue is coming from transfolk and their allies.

Or I'm not actively looking for them because I don't care. ( I suspect the VA might have more because that's one of the few places they can get treatment). Heck, I'll even admit I had no idea about that Guard Officer I mentioned until years later, because it came out on the news. (She's a cousin to the IL Governor). I did thing he/she was an odd duck... but he/she was rich, so he could afford to be.

Which is fine. If they don't go into a women's private area, very few would care. We've had trans people of various kinds since forever, and we've had transexuals actively seeking to transform their bodies into another gender since the seventies at least. Nobody much cared until a small minority of them insisted on encroaching into women's sports and private areas.

But can you prioritize. Look, I'm going to be honest, the only reason I care even a little about the transgender issue is because I enjoy watching religious nutters like Bob lose their ever loving minds. But in the cosmic scheme of things, there are much bigger problems to worry about.

The only reason I care about posting about transgenders is so I can watch liberals doing verbal gymnastics to avoid answering questions.