Trial by Jury under Siege: How much more can we take?

[Delta4Embassy]

Yet, if you request a jury trial for a speeding ticket....you are granted it, and 99% of the time the ticket is dismissed before it ever gets a trial.

Yep. Tyranny all right. You people are so ridiculous.

All over my state of SC (red state) Republicans are bitching about criminals being let OUT of jail, getting light bonds, getting mere slaps on the wrist for violent crimes. And the Republicans here are 100% right about it.


But, I do support legalizing weed. That would knock off about 20% of our prison population. You for that?

Yes, obviously I am for legalizing marijuana. In fact, the Government has no authority to control which substances you put in your body, or sell/trade. From where does the government get the authority to regulate which substances we imbibe and consume?

And yes, it's amazing how some very violent people get out of prison lightly, but the most harmless ones get smashed with years of prison. It's almost like the government wants violent people on the loose...GUN CONTROL!

But hey, thank god 90% of your response had nothing to do with my megathread!

No one but academics, and those suffering from OCD are going to respond to 'megathreads.' Want response and debate learn to sum up.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The vast majority of people behind bars are serving time for VICTIMLESS crimes.

Prove it!

You can't just pull a statement like that out of your ass and then expect us to continue reading your OP.

Prove it or ask to have thread closed.

Your premise is pathetically stupid.

Here you go you little fascist jack ass.

Wonkbook: 11 facts about America?s prison population

- The most serious charge against 51 percent of those inmates is a drug offense. Only four percent are in for robbery and only one percent are in for homicide.

- The most serious charge against 20 percent of state-prison inmates is a drug offense. That's much lower than the 51 percent in federal prisons, though it's still larger than any other single category of offense in state prisons.

Violent criminals are a small slice of the prison populations.

But boy, do they ever come out violent when they do leave.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yet, if you request a jury trial for a speeding ticket....you are granted it, and 99% of the time the ticket is dismissed before it ever gets a trial.

Yep. Tyranny all right. You people are so ridiculous.

All over my state of SC (red state) Republicans are bitching about criminals being let OUT of jail, getting light bonds, getting mere slaps on the wrist for violent crimes. And the Republicans here are 100% right about it.


But, I do support legalizing weed. That would knock off about 20% of our prison population. You for that?

Yes, obviously I am for legalizing marijuana. In fact, the Government has no authority to control which substances you put in your body, or sell/trade. From where does the government get the authority to regulate which substances we imbibe and consume?

And yes, it's amazing how some very violent people get out of prison lightly, but the most harmless ones get smashed with years of prison. It's almost like the government wants violent people on the loose...GUN CONTROL!

But hey, thank god 90% of your response had nothing to do with my megathread!

No one but academics, and those suffering from OCD are going to respond to 'megathreads.' Want response and debate learn to sum up.

Depending on your definition of megathread, most threads if they last long enough do wind up as megathreads.

 

[Katzndogz]

This is an interesting topic. Point one is if you go to trial on a speeding ticket, 99 times out of 100 the cop won't show up and the ticket is dismissed. Keep that in mind. If you hire an attorney, he or she will ask for the trial to be continued however many times it takes for the cop to lose interest if the cop looks like he remembers you.

I know that is not true in Virginia. The cops will show up in court, even if you ask for a jury trial. Been there, done that.

Just because someone is in custody on a non violent offense, that doesn't mean they are a non violent offender. In the 80s, in California the gang violence was so great, that the police instituted a zero tolerance policy on everything. Gang bangers were arrested on very minor drug charges and put away for years. That took them off the streets. Many times there might be a string of robberies, rapes, assaults, then suddenly stop. That means the perpetrator has been arrested on some other charge, usually it is a drug charge.

But the efficacy does not mean the process was fair or just. The perp could have lost his friend to a long jail term and knew the friend was innocent, and so he simply leaves the locale. I knew a guy who used to rob stores and he had cased a real good one and bragged to a friend. When he showed up to rob the place, the cops grabbed him. His friend was so convinced, he went and robbed the place the night before and the cops were waiting for him to return for a second hit. lol, the perp got so paranoid after that he stopped doing robberies.

I get that you all find the plea bargain objectionable as coercion. So don't agree to a plea bargain.

Yeah, sure, its just that simple, lol.

'Yes, your honor, I have turned down the plea deal and will take a risk of going to jail for the rest of my life due to having a half ounce of pot in my friends car.'

Yeah, sure its just so simple. Just get a jury; that always works!

If what you want to do is eliminate the plea bargain many people would go to prison for far longer, even innocent people, tham if they had bargained it out. Of course the charges are going to be stacked. All the excess charges are dismissed by pre trial motion anyway.

Dude, I don't know where you are from, but that is not how it works in Virginia and I'll bet that it varies hugely by state and municipality. The only way a judge might drop stacked charges is if the defendant has a good lawyer, and even then I have never seen it happen, and I have sat through dozens of courts waiting trial for one thing or another. never saw it once.

No you wouldn't have seen it happen because most trial work is not in front of a jury. Some of it is in chambers and some of it is on paper. Yes. I agree. Get a good lawyer.

 

[JimBowie1958]

This is an interesting topic. Point one is if you go to trial on a speeding ticket, 99 times out of 100 the cop won't show up and the ticket is dismissed. Keep that in mind. If you hire an attorney, he or she will ask for the trial to be continued however many times it takes for the cop to lose interest if the cop looks like he remembers you.

I know that is not true in Virginia. The cops will show up in court, even if you ask for a jury trial. Been there, done that.



But the efficacy does not mean the process was fair or just. The perp could have lost his friend to a long jail term and knew the friend was innocent, and so he simply leaves the locale. I knew a guy who used to rob stores and he had cased a real good one and bragged to a friend. When he showed up to rob the place, the cops grabbed him. His friend was so convinced, he went and robbed the place the night before and the cops were waiting for him to return for a second hit. lol, the perp got so paranoid after that he stopped doing robberies.



Yeah, sure, its just that simple, lol.

'Yes, your honor, I have turned down the plea deal and will take a risk of going to jail for the rest of my life due to having a half ounce of pot in my friends car.'

Yeah, sure its just so simple. Just get a jury; that always works!

If what you want to do is eliminate the plea bargain many people would go to prison for far longer, even innocent people, tham if they had bargained it out. Of course the charges are going to be stacked. All the excess charges are dismissed by pre trial motion anyway.

Dude, I don't know where you are from, but that is not how it works in Virginia and I'll bet that it varies hugely by state and municipality. The only way a judge might drop stacked charges is if the defendant has a good lawyer, and even then I have never seen it happen, and I have sat through dozens of courts waiting trial for one thing or another. never saw it once.

No you wouldn't have seen it happen because most trial work is not in front of a jury. Some of it is in chambers and some of it is on paper. Yes. I agree. Get a good lawyer.

Lol, so you affirm it is orchestrated out of the public view.

You are not strengthening your case, bubba.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

The vast majority of people behind bars are serving time for VICTIMLESS crimes.

Prove it!

You can't just pull a statement like that out of your ass and then expect us to continue reading your OP.

Prove it or ask to have thread closed.

Your premise is pathetically stupid.

You obviously don't spend as much time communicating and working with the black population, as you liberals claim to do. Don't you liberals claims to "love blacks" yet is seems that you've never talked to them or their community leaders (church leaders etc).

Yes, most crimes are victimless. But it's the Progressives that passed the Prohibition Amendment in the early 20th Century, so...

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Today, more than 1 in 97 Americans lives behind bars, a rate which is worse than any other nation in the world --- even Red China. The vast majority of people behind bars are serving time for VICTIMLESS crimes.

Most of these people are frightened into Plea Bargains, through a process called "charge stacking." Often these people face over 3,000 months in prison if they don't take the Plea Bargain.

What is a Plea Bargain? To be short, it's a process that convicts you in order to SKIP a Trial by Jury, in exchange for a lesser sentence. Many innocents are also known to have taken these deals.

Charge stacking certainly runs afoul of Double Jeopardy and Cruel and Unusual Punishment clauses; being forced to cede the adjudication of the accusations against you, by a Jury of your Peers, runs afoul of the Sixth and Seventh Amendments.

It is well known that if everyone DENIED plea bargains, that state wouldn't have enough time or money to even imprison 1/10th the current population of incarcerated citizens.

I only read the part quoted, but I know I'm with you on this. I was once in a court to help convict the guy who stole stuff from my neighbor, and as I was waiting for our criminal to show up in court, we were watching other trials, and the first thing the judge said to the other defendant was something like this "do you agree to the speedy trial in exchange for no jury" something like that, and it always stayed in my head: wtf, in order to have a speedy trial he has to agree to a trial with no jury - I've spent 3 nights in prison myself for false accusations and I know what it is like, and I know I could have spent MONTHS in prison if my father would not have bailed me out. That is precisely why and when I started getting into politics, and unfortunately I still can not get through to people, but I am very interested to be involved in something that brings changes, really, I donated money, I spent my own money to reach out, I am just missing something, or maybe the conditions are not yet right, but I despise this system and I want to see it's collapse more than anything. it is a fraud system, with a fraud freedom of speech, and a fraud equal rights, fraud elections, and everything else. if you are interested in working together, pm me.

Well said, us Libertarians have been working hard with black leaders on Long Island to achieve the Jury Nullification legislation that was passed in New Hampshire in 2012. This is the sole thing we're focusing on, other than eminent domain seizure for "sustainability projects."

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Goebels would have been so proud of the wanker.

Like him or not he knew what he was doing. Give credit where credit is due.

You say that like a genuine fascist.

Fuck off, you little cretin.

You think you are playing a game, but it wont end well for you. Your side will lose and these days you wont be forgotten when the scores get settled. Everyone who has supported this tyrannical regime and its unconstitutional abuses that hold office will face trial eventually. The guys who are being denounced as extremists by the Big lie media have big axes to grind and an ideology that has hot yet fully formed.

When they win power who knows what they will hold for ideological guidelines?

I don't but I do know that they literally hate guys like you with a passion. You wont be missed.

Just as long as those trials are fair and for legitimate crimes, why not try them?

 

[Avatar4321]

Yes, obviously I am for legalizing marijuana. In fact, the Government has no authority to control which substances you put in your body, or sell/trade. From where does the government get the authority to regulate which substances we imbibe and consume?

And yes, it's amazing how some very violent people get out of prison lightly, but the most harmless ones get smashed with years of prison. It's almost like the government wants violent people on the loose...GUN CONTROL!

But hey, thank god 90% of your response had nothing to do with my megathread!

State governments do that that authority.

and no one is forced into a plea deal.

ROFLMAO!

So the DA tells you you can either go to trial and face twenty years to life, or plead down and we will let you off with a felony and time served plus 3 years suspended.

Guilty or not the vast majority take the plea because IT IS COERSION!

No one facing 20 to life is going to get a time served sentence.

If you are going to argue, atleast be honest about it.

 

[Jarlaxle]

This is an interesting topic. Point one is if you go to trial on a speeding ticket, 99 times out of 100 the cop won't show up and the ticket is dismissed. Keep that in mind. If you hire an attorney, he or she will ask for the trial to be continued however many times it takes for the cop to lose interest if the cop looks like he remembers you.

Just because someone is in custody on a non violent offense, that doesn't mean they are a non violent offender. In the 80s, in California the gang violence was so great, that the police instituted a zero tolerance policy on everything. Gang bangers were arrested on very minor drug charges and put away for years. That took them off the streets. Many times there might be a string of robberies, rapes, assaults, then suddenly stop. That means the perpetrator has been arrested on some other charge, usually it is a drug charge.

I get that you all find the plea bargain objectionable as coercion. So don't agree to a plea bargain. If what you want to do is eliminate the plea bargain many people would go to prison for far longer, even innocent people, tham if they had bargained it out. Of course the charges are going to be stacked. All the excess charges are dismissed by pre trial motion anyway. An attorney after getting all the flotsam charges dismissed, will bring another motion, one to bring all uncharged offenses. So that the suspect is either charged at the time, or not at all.

If there were no such thing as a plea bargain, the system would not crash, but you might be waiting YEARS before you see the inside of a courtroom. If you can't make bail, you will be in jail for all those years. You might serve MORE time waiting for trial than if you took a plea bargain and a short sentence.

I believe the drug users should be shot on the spot, if it's in their system they are guilty, no trial necessary. Legalization of marijuana doesn't enter into the discussion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...we all KNOW you're a psychopathic bitch!

 

[Jarlaxle]

It's basically a gun pointed to your head, because you may as well be dead if you convicted in a charge stacked scenario.

There is a fix for that, have everyone go to trial. You'll crash the system in no time.

Bullshit. The courts have no problem with you waiting seven years for your trial.

But the Constitution might! (See: Sixth Amendment.)

 

[Jarlaxle]

State governments do that that authority.

and no one is forced into a plea deal.

ROFLMAO!

So the DA tells you you can either go to trial and face twenty years to life, or plead down and we will let you off with a felony and time served plus 3 years suspended.

Guilty or not the vast majority take the plea because IT IS COERSION!

No one facing 20 to life is going to get a time served sentence.

If you are going to argue, atleast be honest about it.

My brother was facing 15-25 and got 4.

 

[JoeB131]

The OP, like most right wing tools, fails to understand WHY we have so many people in prison.

Because we've made prisons big business. Lots of people getting rich off of prison labor.

Now, yeah, charge stacking and plea bargaining is a small part of the problem, but the real problem is that we make a lot of things illegal that shouldn't be.

 

[editec]

Yet, if you request a jury trial for a speeding ticket....you are granted it, and 99% of the time the ticket is dismissed before it ever gets a trial.

Yep. Tyranny all right. You people are so ridiculous.

All over my state of SC (red state) Republicans are bitching about criminals being let OUT of jail, getting light bonds, getting mere slaps on the wrist for violent crimes. And the Republicans here are 100% right about it.


But, I do support legalizing weed. That would knock off about 20% of our prison population. You for that?

A tril by jury for a speeding ticket?

In what states can you demand that?

IN many states if the end result of a guilty find is NOT jail, you cannot demand a trial by jury.

 

[Iceweasel]

I think the jury system should be done away with altogether. I'd rather have a panel of professionals, maybe retired judges, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. Justice can come down to who has the better lyer that can sway juries that would probably prefer watching cartoons.

 

[pvsi]

Today, more than 1 in 97 Americans lives behind bars, a rate which is worse than any other nation in the world --- even Red China. The vast majority of people behind bars are serving time for VICTIMLESS crimes.

Most of these people are frightened into Plea Bargains, through a process called "charge stacking." Often these people face over 3,000 months in prison if they don't take the Plea Bargain.

What is a Plea Bargain? To be short, it's a process that convicts you in order to SKIP a Trial by Jury, in exchange for a lesser sentence. Many innocents are also known to have taken these deals.

Charge stacking certainly runs afoul of Double Jeopardy and Cruel and Unusual Punishment clauses; being forced to cede the adjudication of the accusations against you, by a Jury of your Peers, runs afoul of the Sixth and Seventh Amendments.

It is well known that if everyone DENIED plea bargains, that state wouldn't have enough time or money to even imprison 1/10th the current population of incarcerated citizens.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
However, in these recent times, we have seen a far more malicious and dark form of attack against the jury system.

The NDAA, or the National Defense Authorization Act, suspends a trial altogether for defendants in Article II courts. Read the following text form the NDAA itself:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr4310/text

Nothing in the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note) or the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (Public Law 112–81) shall be construed to deny the availability of the writ of habeas corpus or to deny any Constitutional rights in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution to any person inside the United States who would be entitled to the availability of such writ or to such rights in the absence of such laws.

One can be detained indefinitely in an Article II (military court) on mere Executive whim for "terrorism."

Yet, even more disturbing, the Supreme Court declared that the Obamacare Penalty is a 16th Amendment "tax." Thus, if one fails to conform to the Affordable Care Act, they will be forced to pay an additional tax (also known as a penalty!) that is immune to review by a Jury of your Peers!

It seems that the Supreme Court has opened a trapdoor to the Pit itself with that ruling, as you can now be sure that many laws, whether they come from Republicans or Democrats, will now include fiscal penalties under the GUISE of a tax --- a punishment immune to a review by a Jury of your Peers.

This is not happening at a random or inconsequential moment in American history either. During the previous year, the activities of the NSA have been upheld by the Courts. A few lessons and time invested in the history of abuses of the Crown by Writs of Assistance, or "General Search Warrants" should give you an idea of what a danger to the Republic the NSA has become. As an analogy: If angry sheriff had a personal problem with you, he could have a cop car covertly follow you as you drive everywhere you go. Eventually you will would get a ticket, no matter how well a driver you are.

There was a time when the Crown used arbitrary search powers to take colonists to Admiralty courts without a Jury trial!

With the destruction of Fourth Amendment --- a destruction that has ALREADY COMPLETED --- and now the Jury system is slowly being relegated to only the most serious crimes (such as murder), you should ponder the future of our Republic, how will it look in ten years? 20 years?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Contemplate this quote by Thomas Jefferson:

“I consider trial by jury as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.”

The Constitution recognizes individuals citizens, such as you, as the highest judicial body. No President or executive can imprison an acquitted person. No Judge can overturn an acquittal. No Legislative Body can pass a Bill of Attainder to override a Jury's decision.

You, the Citizens of the United States, are the Highest Authority on the the Constitution. Although you cannot set precedent, you also have no obligation to uphold precedent. No man can be destroyed unless convicted by a Jury of his Peers.

The Freedom of Press was born in the Zenger trial, when the Jury refused to convict him of sedition. The Freedom of Religion was regained during the Trial of William Penn, when the Jury also refused to convict him.

The Fugitive Slave Laws were almost ineffective, even though they were in the Constitution itself!

Prohibition, another article of the Constitution, was ended as well by Jury Nullification. Many claim that the "violence" brought an end to Prohibition. But that obviously isn't true, since the Government hasn't ended the far more violent War on Drugs. But most people today take Plea Bargains instead of going to trial. If everyone went to a jury trial, the state would have to automatically acquit 90% of them simply because it wouldn't' have the time or money for prosecuting victimless crimes.

Notice that Prohibition and the current War on Drugs all run afoul of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments of the Constitution (the reserved rights of people and the States, these powers have never been delegated to the Federal Government). The Fugitive Slave Laws ran totally contradictory to the Ninth Amendment, which is the philosophical foundation of the Enlightenment --- and thus the Constitution itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now read this text here from the Declaration of Independence:

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

....

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences (this heavily rings of NDAA)

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws (arbitration and plea bargains, voiding the sixth and seventh amendments, voiding double jeopardy and the eighth amendment cruel and unusual punishment with charge stacking and mandatory sentencing)

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance (IRS/Alphabet soup agencies --- all of which exercise undelegated powers, violating the Ninth and Tenth, and very often the First Amendment)

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever (rampant use of Executive Orders)

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments (demolition of the fourth amendment, heavy infringement of the second amendment)

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us (be it the paramilitarization of the police force, which is far more numerous and better armed than the Redcoats of the 18th Century; or be it the rise of unmanned drones, that can be armed at any time, or recent cases of law enforcement FORCING neighbors to harbor and serve as a base for sting operations, or the martial law occupation of Boston, the THIRD AMENDMENT is now fullly under siege,
Anthony Mitchell Lawsuit: Cops Violated Third Amendment, Occupied Home, Complaint States

As you can see, every amendment in the Bill of Rights is under heavy siege, even the Third Amendment. One of those amendments, the Fourth, is already dead. Imagine if the men who survived the Revolution of 1776 were here today? Our Government has become far more tyrannical than the Crown has had been, and now the ONLY peaceful tool to resist this raw and ugly power, Trial by Jury, is being intentionally eroded by those same tyrants, both directly and indirectly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Many patriots have only TWO conditions that would PERMIT a revolution:

1) Abolition of Trial by Jury
2) Confiscation of Firearms

So long as Trial by Jury remains, the People can only blame themselves for Tyranny, since only they can destroy their Peers.

Thus, the People are Sovereign, as the Enlightenment brought about, Popular Sovereignty being the primary theme of the age. This is stated clearly in the Ninth Amendment. So long as the People are Sovereign, through the Jury, they are the Supreme Judicial Body of the land, and thus the ones ultimately in charge.

The Second Amendment is how the People remain Sovereign, it is the ENFORCER of Trial by Jury. If executives started to imprison innocent men, or judges overturned acquittal,s or legislatures passed Bills of Attainder to usurp the Jury, these Government Agents would be REVOLTING against the People, the Constitution itself. It would be the solemn DUTY of the People to Restore the Rule of Law.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government.

Thus, by consequence, if the Government attempted to seize firearms --- before abolishing Trial by Jury, then it must be assumed that the Government has become hostile or intends to be hostile soon after. Once the People are disarmed, their Jury system is irrelevant, as they have no way of enforcing their superiority under the Constitution. They are no longer Sovereign.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So the question that remains, as indicated by the title of this thread:

How much more erosion of the Jury system can we take? Are there any peaceful remedies that remain to restore the Jury system?

Some hope has been observed in New Hampshire where Jury Nullification was made the law of the land in 2012, but can this miracle be repeated elsewhere?

I distinctly remember clicking "thanks" for this post a couple of days ago, but now it's gone. AND I am not even allowed to ask why this post was moved.
Anyway, bands like Metallica sang 30 years ago "justice is lost, justice is doomed", but I believe it is up to the small group of people to restore justice, and I want to state for the record, that all the talkers and complainers while they make careers and make good money pointing out the truth, speaking the truth achieves absolutely nothing as time shows. I am NOT advocating any violence, what I suggest is described well in my speeches - we need to hold a referendum for elections, if you are interested, I can pm you the link is does NOT take any money, it takes a few of us working in a well organized manner.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I think the jury system should be done away with altogether. I'd rather have a panel of professionals, maybe retired judges, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. Justice can come down to who has the better lyer that can sway juries that would probably prefer watching cartoons.

Oh yeah, I can't wait to have a panel of IRS professionals adjudicating justice.

 

[Iceweasel]

Oh yeah, I can't wait to have a panel of IRS professionals adjudicating justice.

You have something to hide?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Yet, if you request a jury trial for a speeding ticket....you are granted it, and 99% of the time the ticket is dismissed before it ever gets a trial.

Yep. Tyranny all right. You people are so ridiculous.

All over my state of SC (red state) Republicans are bitching about criminals being let OUT of jail, getting light bonds, getting mere slaps on the wrist for violent crimes. And the Republicans here are 100% right about it.


But, I do support legalizing weed. That would knock off about 20% of our prison population. You for that?

A tril by jury for a speeding ticket?

In what states can you demand that?

IN many states if the end result of a guilty find is NOT jail, you cannot demand a trial by jury.

Every state and territory in the United States unless the fine is less than $20. (Seventh Amendment to the US Constitution)

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Interestingly, South Africa (Pistorious case) mentioned South Africa got rid of trial by jury in the late 60s.