Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

Alliance Defense Fund. Check into the acitivist lawyers. They see themselves as warriors.


The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) was founded in 1994 by more than 30 Christian ministries, as a response to the American Civil Liberties Union, to defend "family values." ADF's major focus is strategizing and coordinating with hundreds of lawyers and right-wing groups to defend what they define as "Christian legal issues." Examples include anti-gay cases like Boy Scouts of America v. Dale and Schenck v. Pro-Choice Network, and a national strategy to "protect marriage," following Vermont's decision to allow same-sex civil unions. People for the American Way notes that ADF's founding groups "are influential members of the Right, they are pro-life and anti-gay and their ultimate goal is to see the law and government of the US enshrined with conservative Christian principles."
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Alliance_Defense_Fund

They sound like dominionists.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Universities have a review process, Immie, and she has sought redress in the courts. I dun think her life will be ruined.

The university had a rational basis for requiring its students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values. A value-based conflict is common in counseling, similar to a conflict of interest for an attorney. Jennifer Keeton has no business counseling gays and lesbians.

In Keeton's misguided view, the school was discriminating against her religion; in fact, they were trying to stop her from discriminating against, and potentially harming, future patients. Keeton certainly has every right to express her disdain or disgust for gay people. Considering she's chosen a career that gives her power over struggling patients, however, her conservative "Christian" perspective becomes far more dangerous than just some free speech. She would be put in a position in which she could do some serious damage to a vulnerable person. Her powers, therefore, would not be used for good, but for evil, and there should be a law against that.

 

[Madeline]

She also has no business counseling the children of GLBT parents, or the friends of GLBT students, or kids confused by GLBT issues........

Few people lead lives utterly untouched by the intimate lives of others.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The American Medical Association (AMA), the American Psychological Association (APA), the American Association of Pediatrics (AAP), and every other major scientific and medical group has come out in opposition to so-called “reparative” and “conversion” therapies.

The APA’s statement stressed that “reparative therapy” is not benign and that it often has deleterious effects. According to the statement, “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients... were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed... the APA opposes any treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based on a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual orientation.”
The Dangers of Conversion Therapy - The Tech

 

[Sky Dancer]

There are multitudes of Christian Universities in America which offer Christian Counselling degrees. There are many Christian Churches and schools and hospitals and Community Programs which would be glad to employ Ms. Keeton to express religiously-based views to clients.

But Ms. Keeton did not join any of those schools or programs. Instead, she knowingly signed up for a secular, psychologically-based counselling program. Then she threw out the basis of the lesson plan because she believed her private religious views are superior. And -then-, she sues the school for telling her that the program isn’t about her religious beliefs, which she knew, before she even signed up for it.

Now reverse the situation.

Let’s say an Atheist signed up for a Christian University, and took a course in Christian Counselling. Sounds silly, right? Now let’s say the Atheist decides to replace parts of the lesson plan with his Atheist beliefs. And now let’s say that this Atheist sues the Christian School for telling him that his views aren’t in line with the lesson plan he knew all about before he even signed up for it.

Pathetic, wouldn’t you say?

This has nothing to do with the First Amendment. Nobody is telling Ms. Keeton what to believe, or what she can and can’t say. (Do you really think every counsellor and doctor loves gays? Uh, no.) The SECULAR program Ms. Keeton knowingly signed up for does not force people to ‘accept’ anybody, it just teaches the medical standard for dealing with certain people. And to that, Ms. Keeton wants to flip them the bird and replace their teachings with her own brand of religion.

Is this really something you are going to applaud? The razor cuts both ways. If she wins her lawsuit I’ll be the first Atheist in line at the nearest Christian University.
Jennifer Keeton, In Her Own Words |

 

[rdean]

Tolerance? Not for Christians...

You're right, many Christians aren't tolerant. Pity.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Standard of Practice One (SP-1): Nondiscrimination. Counselors respect diversity and must not discriminate against clients because of age, color, culture, disability, ethnic group, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, marital status, or socioeconomic status.

Standard of Practice Eight (SP-8): Inability to Assist Clients. Counselors must avoid entering or immediately terminate a counseling relationship if it is determined that they are unable to be of professional assistance to a client. The counselor may assist in making an appropriate referral for the client.
http://www.cacounseling.org/standards.

 

[AllieBaba]

Universities have a review process, Immie, and she has sought redress in the courts. I dun think her life will be ruined.

The university had a rational basis for requiring its students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values. A value-based conflict is common in counseling, similar to a conflict of interest for an attorney. Jennifer Keeton has no business counseling gays and lesbians.

In Keeton's misguided view, the school was discriminating against her religion; in fact, they were trying to stop her from discriminating against, and potentially harming, future patients. Keeton certainly has every right to express her disdain or disgust for gay people. Considering she's chosen a career that gives her power over struggling patients, however, her conservative "Christian" perspective becomes far more dangerous than just some free speech. She would be put in a position in which she could do some serious damage to a vulnerable person. Her powers, therefore, would not be used for good, but for evil, and there should be a law against that.

You are so full of shit.

She didn't impose her personal values upon clients. People are allowed to HAVE personal values; the professional community assumes you can refrain from imposing them upon your clients. And until you do, it's not an issue.

There was never any indication that she ever discriminated against anyone, or that she would in the future. The school based everything upon the fact she had openly stated that she was a Christian and believes that homosexuality is a choice. That's not "dangerous" at all. It's perfectly ok to be a Christian, and it's perfectly okay to have an OPINION about whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Whatever the current fad, it's just a guess, and the accepted opinion of what causes homosexuality has shifted numerous times. Students, and everyone else, get to discuss their personal opinions about issues of the day; they are allowed and encouraged to consider the things they are exposed to in school and they cannot be prevented from adhering to their religion as long as they aren't violating anyone's rights in doing so.

Keaton has violated nobody's rights.

Her own rights have been violated.

And the people who claim to want equal rights for all apparently think it's okay to oppress, silence and discriminate people who have ideas different from their own.

 

[AllieBaba]

She also has no business counseling the children of GLBT parents, or the friends of GLBT students, or kids confused by GLBT issues........

Few people lead lives utterly untouched by the intimate lives of others.

And abortionists have no business ever treating children.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[Sky Dancer]

"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship."

Counseling Gay and Lesbian Clients in AllPsych Journal

 

[Sky Dancer]

She also has no business counseling the children of GLBT parents, or the friends of GLBT students, or kids confused by GLBT issues........

Few people lead lives utterly untouched by the intimate lives of others.

And abortionists have no business ever treating children.

Agree? Disagree?

Keeton isn't willing to comply with the ACA non-discrimination policy. Can you imagine if a gay atheist counseling student told colleagues he would use conversion therapy on a heterosexual client? There would be screams from the right.

 

[AllieBaba]

Really? Prove it. What is the non-discrimination policy, and when did she violate it or say she was going to violate it?

 

[AllieBaba]

So do you think a doctor who kills babies should ever be allowed to treat them?

It's the same thing, after all.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It's not the same analogy at all.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Really? Prove it. What is the non-discrimination policy, and when did she violate it or say she was going to violate it?

Her views of homosexuality are clearly discriminatory. She is unapologetic about being anti-gay. She considers homosexuality a disorder. She favors conversion therapy. She refuses to attend diversity training. Keeton trying to counsel a gay person would violate ACA ethics codes.


"Before beginning any treatment with a homosexual client, a therapist has the responsibility of making sure he or she is well versed on issues related to sexuality, has the skills necessary to create a positive and nonjudgmental environment, and will not feel uncomfortable discussing issues related to homosexuality. If a therapist believes homosexuality is wrong, sinful, immoral, or a mental illness, he or she should NOT work with gay clients. Refer this client to someone who is able to provide the necessary components of a therapeutic relationship."
Counseling Gay and Lesbian Clients in AllPsych Journal

 

[AllieBaba]

Really? Prove it. What is the non-discrimination policy, and when did she violate it or say she was going to violate it?

Her views of homosexuality are clearly discriminatory. She is unapologetic about being anti-gay. She considers homosexuality a disorder. She favors conversion therapy. She refuses to attend diversity training.

Sky, my friend, I have asked repeatedly that you provide evidence of her disciminatory views. Please prove that she considers homosexuality a disorder. I have read NOTHING that says that. Nor have I seen anything about her favoring conversion therapy. She refuses to attend the training because it is directed at changing her religion and her personal views, NOT towards anything else at all.

If you have proof of anything she's said that is anti-gay, please provide that proof. Or stop saying that. Don't just say her views are discriminatory, please show how they are discriminatory and tell us who she has disciminated against.

I'm being as nice as I know how but I'm getting frustrated because this is the third thread where these simple questions have been asked, and there has been no response other than "she's a homophobe". Really? PROVE IT!

 

[Sky Dancer]

A month ago, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a dispute involving the right of public universities to enforce anti-bias rules as a requirement for recognition of student organizations. The university's rules were upheld, dealing a blow to Christian student groups who argued that they should be protected by the First Amendment to receive recognition and to bar gay people.

Now a new issue is emerging that involves a similar set of players and issues: public universities, anti-bias rules, and the rights of gay people and Christian students. On Tuesday, a federal judge upheld the right of a counseling program at Eastern Michigan University to kick out a master's student who declined to counsel gay clients in an affirming way — as required by the university program and counseling associations. The judge found that the university was enforcing a legitimate curricular requirement — namely that counseling students learn to work with all kinds of clients in ways that did not judge their values or orientations.
Court rules student counselors must 'affirm' gay clients - USATODAY.com

 

[Sky Dancer]

Really? Prove it. What is the non-discrimination policy, and when did she violate it or say she was going to violate it?

Her views of homosexuality are clearly discriminatory. She is unapologetic about being anti-gay. She considers homosexuality a disorder. She favors conversion therapy. She refuses to attend diversity training.

Sky, my friend, I have asked repeatedly that you provide evidence of her disciminatory views. Please prove that she considers homosexuality a disorder. I have read NOTHING that says that. Nor have I seen anything about her favoring conversion therapy. She refuses to attend the training because it is directed at changing her religion and her personal views, NOT towards anything else at all.

If you have proof of anything she's said that is anti-gay, please provide that proof. Or stop saying that. Don't just say her views are discriminatory, please show how they are discriminatory and tell us who she has disciminated against.

I'm being as nice as I know how but I'm getting frustrated because this is the third thread where these simple questions have been asked, and there has been no response other than "she's a homophobe". Really? PROVE IT!

I'm not in court, Allie. You can go back and read what Keeton says in her own words.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, because she didn't say anything that a reasonable person would construe as that.

You're perpetuating a lie.
And you must know it, or you would be able to prove what you're spouting. You wouldn't even have to look it up, you'd be able to cite it. I can cite particulars. You can't because you're just assuming based upon what you've heard other people say.

Read the material and grow up.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Jen has voiced disagreement in several class discussions and in written assignments with the gay and lesbian “lifestyle.” She stated in one paper that she believes GLBTQ “lifestyles” to be identity confusion. This was during her enrollment in the Diversity Sensitivity course and after the presentation on GLBTQ populations.

.Faculty have also received unsolicited reports from another student that [Miss Keeton] has relayed her interest in conversion therapy for GLBTQ populations, and she has tried to convince other students to support and believe her views. (Emphasis in original).
http://democracy-project.com/?p=4427

Identity confusion is a disorder.