To Save the Schools, We Must Change the Social Contract

[SweetSue92]

What word did you use to show the majority of people?

Gang. To "gang up". So not so much an organized civilization of people "making you do what they want" but a rogue group of tyrants.

That was deliberate. Democracy advocates like to pretend that their solution isn't about force, but of course it is.

Right, so then, not a society built on Rights and Responsibilities then. So, different from what we're talking about here.

A right is a freedom, not a grant of power. What you refer to as "collective rights" is simply the power of the majority to bully the minority. Some of you seem to think that going through the process of taking a vote legitimizes that bullying, but it doesn't.

Newsflash for you: if you don't agree to live by a vote in a community than you devolve to gang warfare. So yes: society has a code we all agree--either overtly or not--to live by. Else the code is survival of the fittest and then anarchy.

You want survival of the fittest? Bully for you. Leave us out of it.

The concept of "collective rights" isn't referring to rights at all. It's referring to the idea that the majority can dictate to the minority in the general case. That's an abuse of government. The point of government isn't to command society - it's to protect our freedom.

No. Society sets up government to protect rights. So when I say collective rights, I mean the rights of the collective--the group. In school, the major rights are a safe place to learn. When an individual threatens those rights on the regular, then yes--the "majority" dictates that things have to change or steps will be taken. It would be interesting to find out how--or why--you would want this to change. Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn? Or what?

Ok, so maybe I just not clear on how you're using the term "collective right". Let me ask you this: what rights does a collective have that an individual does not? In your example of a disruptive child (or anyone really), it's the individual rights of each child that are being violated.

So, what makes a right "collective"?

Last, in most human group situations you are going to have a majority-rules situation. The difference is: does the majority rule by persuasion and election (such as in our representative republic) or by brute force (such as by gang warfare)? That is no small distinction and it's grossly unfair for you to equate the two.

Well, that was the genius of constitutionally limited government. What I'm rejecting is the notion the democracy blesses the majority with the "collective right" to force anything it likes on the rest of us via a vote.

So yes, individuals have rights and the collective--society--sets up a gov't to protect those rights. The collective does not have rights the individual does not; they are just acting as a society. They have gathered together to say you (the individual) are impeding on our right to learn--or whatever.

I can only conclude you must be a Sovereign Citizen type or something....I don't know. Pertinent to my situation here: no families are "forced". You don't HAVE to send your children to public school.

 

[sparky]

"demonize"........

You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things.

Otherwise, the children of this very broken, busted up and sad culture are coming to us.....well....broken, sad and busted up. Some of them have never known a stable and secure adult in their life

If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.

I would also like to point out to everyone who is so naive in this thread how very physically destructive young people, even children, can be when they are melting down

Our culture is the problem

Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn?

Thread after thread after thread about the 'little angels' that distort & disturb your professional existence Sue

Maybe it's not the kids, maybe YOU'RE the problem if they all s*ck

Maybe it's time to retire

~S~

 

[dblack]

That was deliberate. Democracy advocates like to pretend that their solution isn't about force, but of course it is.

A right is a freedom, not a grant of power. What you refer to as "collective rights" is simply the power of the majority to bully the minority. Some of you seem to think that going through the process of taking a vote legitimizes that bullying, but it doesn't.

Newsflash for you: if you don't agree to live by a vote in a community than you devolve to gang warfare. So yes: society has a code we all agree--either overtly or not--to live by. Else the code is survival of the fittest and then anarchy.

You want survival of the fittest? Bully for you. Leave us out of it.

The concept of "collective rights" isn't referring to rights at all. It's referring to the idea that the majority can dictate to the minority in the general case. That's an abuse of government. The point of government isn't to command society - it's to protect our freedom.

No. Society sets up government to protect rights. So when I say collective rights, I mean the rights of the collective--the group. In school, the major rights are a safe place to learn. When an individual threatens those rights on the regular, then yes--the "majority" dictates that things have to change or steps will be taken. It would be interesting to find out how--or why--you would want this to change. Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn? Or what?

Ok, so maybe I just not clear on how you're using the term "collective right". Let me ask you this: what rights does a collective have that an individual does not? In your example of a disruptive child (or anyone really), it's the individual rights of each child that are being violated.

So, what makes a right "collective"?

Last, in most human group situations you are going to have a majority-rules situation. The difference is: does the majority rule by persuasion and election (such as in our representative republic) or by brute force (such as by gang warfare)? That is no small distinction and it's grossly unfair for you to equate the two.

Well, that was the genius of constitutionally limited government. What I'm rejecting is the notion the democracy blesses the majority with the "collective right" to force anything it likes on the rest of us via a vote.

So yes, individuals have rights and the collective--society--sets up a gov't to protect those rights. The collective does not have rights the individual does not; they are just acting as a society. They have gathered together to say you (the individual) are impeding on our right to learn--or whatever.

If collective rights are identical to individual rights, why do we need the term? It seems it means something in addition to the aggregate of the rights of each individual.

I can only conclude you must be a Sovereign Citizen type or something....I don't know. Pertinent to my situation here: no families are "forced". You don't HAVE to send your children to public school.

Interesting. I'd never actual heard of the Sovereign Citizen movement. That's not my style though. While I reserve the right - the responsibility - to disobey an unjust law, skulking about isn't my style. I'd rather fight for a government that doesn't have me looking over my shoulder night and day.

 

[ralfy]

So forget all that. Take it back to the one-room schoolhouse back in the day.

Are you going to pretend then that children were not "removed from their parents"?

Are you going to pretend that there was no "order, obedience and efficiency"?

I mean, go back before Horace Mann--forget all that. Would you have your children in schools and...what? You would be there too? There would be no order, obedience and efficiency?

I never know what point people are trying to make when they just throw down articles like this. Just because Mann might have been trying to make good Prussian like citizens does NOT mean good schools should not have order and efficiency. For heaven's sake

Actually, it goes even earlier to Plato's Republic.

I share these articles not because I'm against formal education but to see the Prussian background of public education in light of a social contract.

 

[ralfy]

And realize if you go back much BEFORE Mann, you had vast differences in schooling. You had governesses, boarding schools...and children either working or street urchins. So no schooling at all for those kids.

That's schooling. It's not the type of schooling enabled via the Prussian system, which involves standards practiced across the board.

 

[bodecea]

Interesting answer. I DO see how you didn't get an education.

who said I didnt get one???

i'm smart enough to have a conversation on a box full of silicone parts,,,

"who said I didnt get one???"

Your attempts at English in your posts. Your woeful lack of knowledge about schools. That's what is telling us.

well you seem to understand what I'm saying,,,so I must have a grasp of the language,,,

I can understand Tarzan in the old movies too.

so you say,,,

Do you even understand the reference?

 

[bodecea]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

And how do you do that without touching them? Tell us.

 

[bodecea]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

Okay and yes. Here is a main point in my OP actually.

Right now, the children doing all the disrupting--no, not the CHILDREN, their parents--are holding all the "power". They have the law and the threat of lawsuits over everyone, and this is not right. It's not just or fair. Their disruption and behavior is now causing major upheaval for the education of all the other children all over the nation.

I'm saying that the parents of the OTHER children--those are the ones that have to not be intimidated by "victim mentality" and begin to file lawsuits. I just read an article about a child who had a pair of scissors thrown at her head in her elementary classroom.

No more. Let the other parents start filing suit when the districts do not protect their children

Unfortunately, Administrations COUNT ON the parents of the good children not making waves.

 

[progressive hunter]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

And how do you do that without touching them? Tell us.

you call someone that is,,,

you are such a dumbass,,,

 

[bodecea]

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

Exactly. And why? Because the Collective (the school, or society) decided on some rules to establish peace and order. And if an individual cannot abide by those, freedom (liberty) is taken away.

None of these poster paid one damn bit of attention is civics. "conservatives" sure

what if the collective says otherwise and that its OK???

face it sweety your a communist,,,

Hey bodecea check that this Trump voter is a communist now

Yep

Some people just cannot think past simple binary thoughts.

 

[progressive hunter]

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

Exactly. And why? Because the Collective (the school, or society) decided on some rules to establish peace and order. And if an individual cannot abide by those, freedom (liberty) is taken away.

None of these poster paid one damn bit of attention is civics. "conservatives" sure

what if the collective says otherwise and that its OK???

face it sweety your a communist,,,

Hey bodecea check that this Trump voter is a communist now

Yep

Some people just cannot think past simple binary thoughts.

no you cant,,,

 

[bodecea]

My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.

I mean that conservatives as a whole are bad at educational policy and coming up with solutions.

Excuse my French, but that is utter, Left wing biased Horse shit.

You are prolly neither Christian NOR Conservative. Your entire premise in this thread is a farce.
You claim to be a "Christian Conservative, and repeat that ad nausea, then go on to spill how ":really, really REALLY Bad educators Conservatives are"
You're no conservative. So typical of nasty Left wingers
I was correct at the beginning of this thread when I called you a CINO.

Italian mobsters wear a cross and go to church...after a hit.....that does not make them Christians.
And more than one flaming gay person has claimed to be "conservative".

Do you want an example of how poor educators conservative politicians are? Florida had a school accountability formula under Jeb Bush that assigned grades for schools based on numerous factors. The first year, the top schools received great scores, all "A"s. The next year, the top schools slipped to "B"s and the third to "C"s and eventually received a grade of "F". One of these schools was rated in the nation's top 15 high schools by US News and World Report, and another in the top 100. Why?

The conservative morons in the state legislature designed the formula that required a minimum of 2% growth in a key test score. So why is that a problem? Those schools were already scoring in the 90th percentiles when the system was implemented. If you go from 90% to 91%, you don't meet the requirement and get knocked down a letter. Fast forward 5 years, and the schools are scoring in the high 90th percentile, yet according to the state's morons in system, were failing schools.

A high school math student should have seen the problem with their calculations.

BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".

sorry but jeb bush is not a conservative, hes a progressive,,,

Binary thinking again.....beats actually having to use any brain cells.

 

[progressive hunter]

My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.

I mean that conservatives as a whole are bad at educational policy and coming up with solutions.

Excuse my French, but that is utter, Left wing biased Horse shit.

You are prolly neither Christian NOR Conservative. Your entire premise in this thread is a farce.
You claim to be a "Christian Conservative, and repeat that ad nausea, then go on to spill how ":really, really REALLY Bad educators Conservatives are"
You're no conservative. So typical of nasty Left wingers
I was correct at the beginning of this thread when I called you a CINO.

Italian mobsters wear a cross and go to church...after a hit.....that does not make them Christians.
And more than one flaming gay person has claimed to be "conservative".

Do you want an example of how poor educators conservative politicians are? Florida had a school accountability formula under Jeb Bush that assigned grades for schools based on numerous factors. The first year, the top schools received great scores, all "A"s. The next year, the top schools slipped to "B"s and the third to "C"s and eventually received a grade of "F". One of these schools was rated in the nation's top 15 high schools by US News and World Report, and another in the top 100. Why?

The conservative morons in the state legislature designed the formula that required a minimum of 2% growth in a key test score. So why is that a problem? Those schools were already scoring in the 90th percentiles when the system was implemented. If you go from 90% to 91%, you don't meet the requirement and get knocked down a letter. Fast forward 5 years, and the schools are scoring in the high 90th percentile, yet according to the state's morons in system, were failing schools.

A high school math student should have seen the problem with their calculations.

BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".

sorry but jeb bush is not a conservative, hes a progressive,,,

Binary thinking again.....beats actually having to use any brain cells.

binary means 2 choices,,,I added a 3rd one ,,,

you are such a dumbass

 

[bodecea]

"demonize"........

You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things.

Otherwise, the children of this very broken, busted up and sad culture are coming to us.....well....broken, sad and busted up. Some of them have never known a stable and secure adult in their life

If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.

I would also like to point out to everyone who is so naive in this thread how very physically destructive young people, even children, can be when they are melting down

Our culture is the problem

Are you here saying that the right of one child to continually be disruptive outweighs the rights of all the other children to stay in their classroom with their teacher and learn?

Thread after thread after thread about the 'little angels' that distort & disturb your professional existence Sue

Maybe it's not the kids, maybe YOU'RE the problem if they all s*ck

Maybe it's time to retire

~S~

I believe that she's pointing out that many many teachers are doing just that or leaving early.....to the point that districts are having a hard time filling positions.

 

[bodecea]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

And how do you do that without touching them? Tell us.

you call someone that is,,,

you are such a dumbass,,,

And that would be........? Even administrators are not allowed to.

 

[bodecea]

My evaluations are so good that less than 10% of teachers in my district are evaluated at my level. In a very good district one of the best in my state. I have won awards and am nationally published. I don't care if you believe me; it's true.

I mean that conservatives as a whole are bad at educational policy and coming up with solutions.

Excuse my French, but that is utter, Left wing biased Horse shit.

You are prolly neither Christian NOR Conservative. Your entire premise in this thread is a farce.
You claim to be a "Christian Conservative, and repeat that ad nausea, then go on to spill how ":really, really REALLY Bad educators Conservatives are"
You're no conservative. So typical of nasty Left wingers
I was correct at the beginning of this thread when I called you a CINO.

Italian mobsters wear a cross and go to church...after a hit.....that does not make them Christians.
And more than one flaming gay person has claimed to be "conservative".

Do you want an example of how poor educators conservative politicians are? Florida had a school accountability formula under Jeb Bush that assigned grades for schools based on numerous factors. The first year, the top schools received great scores, all "A"s. The next year, the top schools slipped to "B"s and the third to "C"s and eventually received a grade of "F". One of these schools was rated in the nation's top 15 high schools by US News and World Report, and another in the top 100. Why?

The conservative morons in the state legislature designed the formula that required a minimum of 2% growth in a key test score. So why is that a problem? Those schools were already scoring in the 90th percentiles when the system was implemented. If you go from 90% to 91%, you don't meet the requirement and get knocked down a letter. Fast forward 5 years, and the schools are scoring in the high 90th percentile, yet according to the state's morons in system, were failing schools.

A high school math student should have seen the problem with their calculations.

BTW, only incredibly lazy morons use the non-word "prolly".

sorry but jeb bush is not a conservative, hes a progressive,,,

Binary thinking again.....beats actually having to use any brain cells.

binary means 2 choices,,,I added a 3rd one ,,,

you are such a dumbass

I accept your surrender.

 

[progressive hunter]

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

What do you suggest be done with an out of control child throwing things. Let him/her hurt the other students? The teacher cannot restrain/touch them......parents sue over that.

thats easy,,,remove them from class

And how do you do that without touching them? Tell us.

you call someone that is,,,

you are such a dumbass,,,

And that would be........? Even administrators are not allowed to.

youre stuck in binary thinking,,,

its called law enforcement,,,


you are such a dumbass,,,

 

[Dick Foster]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

I have a better idea. Let's just shutter the schools and let parents pay the private enterprise system to school their brats for a change. The good teachers will be hired and make more in the private enterprise schools and the parents might actually give a shit that they are getting their moneys worth and their kids are getting a real and useful education for a change. Nothing generates bang for the buck like free enterprise and competition. We can force tax reductions from shuttering all the public schools so the net financial effect to the parents will wash. I'm sure the private enterprise schools will be year round so the global scholastic standing of the whole country should rise from the current abysmal standing compared to other developed nations.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

She did not say conservative teachers. Try reading for comprehension, please!

Yeah she did. But thanks for playing.
You closet Libs are nutz.

Read your own quoted statements, dumbass!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

I have a better idea. Let's just shutter the schools and let parents pay the private enterprise system to school their brats for a change. The good teachers will be hired and make more in the private enterprise schools and the parents might actually give a shit that they are getting their moneys worth and their kids are getting a real and useful education for a change. Nothing generates bang for the buck like free enterprise and competition. We can force tax reductions from shuttering all the public schools so the net financial effect to the parents will wash. I'm sure the private enterprise schools will be year round so the global scholastic standing of the whole country should rise from the current abysmal standing compared to other developed nations.

Dumbass.