This is us, and it's everybody else too...

[Intense]

America does not guarantee you the right to hold onto everything you value. America gives you the right to live in a country where the majority decides the direction. If the majority holds different values, then your (or my) values may not be reflected. Then your recourse is not violence - it is to do the work that is needed to convince a majority that your values SHOULD be the ones reflected in our nation. The fact that someone finds themself in an ideological minority is not a failure of representative democracy or our system, it is a failure of that ideology and it's proponents to win approval.

Well if only that were true.
The majority are being plagued by a tyranny of progressive policies that only a small percentage support.

That is so not true. The top three national priorities today are domestic issues. Asked the question even two years ago, and we would have seen Iraq, War on Terror, and maybe the economy as #3. The only difference is how to pay for all the problems affecting us at the social level, but the "progressive" priorities are the same.

Problems and Priorities

I think that the Concerns of the Oligarchy are Global. The biggest threat to that is the spread of uprising. The threat of the week, keeps us occupied. Economic, Health, Pandemic, Terrorist, Who's getting written off of "Entourage", The war on fun food.

 

[saveliberty]

If you notice, I used words like if and may, so I don't expect it to happen. If it did come to civil war, you'd shoot Glenn Beck before me anyway.

YOU'D shoot me while I was aiming at Glenn Beck

And leave you with the last vision on earth that of Glenn Beck? Not me.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So there is no assault on freedom from the government on the people that would cause you to take up arms against the government?

Hard to make an absolute blanket statement like that. But I cannot conceive of anything that would prompt me to take up arms against my country. Try me - see if you can come up with something outlandish enough.

How about pushing programs that bankrupt the country causing global financial collapse, then ceding Americas sovereignty over to a global government as a solution.

 

[nodoginnafight]

So there is no assault on freedom from the government on the people that would cause you to take up arms against the government?

Hard to make an absolute blanket statement like that. But I cannot conceive of anything that would prompt me to take up arms against my country. Try me - see if you can come up with something outlandish enough.

The Obama Administration has Suspended The Constitution, is Bring in Canadian Military under Contract to Quell Rioting and Looting, Mandatory Curfews are in Effect, and Eminent domain has been declared in Georgia, It's residents will be marched on foot to Oklahoma where they will be re assimilated on Reservations. 10 Acre parcels in Georgia will be traded to Chinese National's, to compensate for debt interest, because The Chinese have grown fond of Peanut Butter and Peaches. Would that do it ????? P.S. The cost of the move is not Tax Deductible! ???

Well heck ...... if it's not TAX DEDUCTIBLE ...... no brainer

 

[nodoginnafight]

So there is no assault on freedom from the government on the people that would cause you to take up arms against the government?

Hard to make an absolute blanket statement like that. But I cannot conceive of anything that would prompt me to take up arms against my country. Try me - see if you can come up with something outlandish enough.

How about pushing programs that bankrupt the country causing global financial collapse, then ceding Americas sovereignty over to a global government as a solution.

I didn't pick up a gun when Reagan, Bush, Carter, or Bush II ran up the deficit - not likely to do it now, although I will makes sure elected officials understand that I don't like deficits and I'm gonna try to convince as many people as possible to vote for candidates who are fiscally responsible pay-go types.

In terms of IF the government of the United States of America is "outsourced" then I would not consider resistence an assault against the United States of America - we could get the aliens we befriend to help us out.

Anyone got anything a little more plausible?

 

[nodoginnafight]

If you notice, I used words like if and may, so I don't expect it to happen. If it did come to civil war, you'd shoot Glenn Beck before me anyway.

YOU'D shoot me while I was aiming at Glenn Beck

And leave you with the last vision on earth that of Glenn Beck? Not me.

That would be cruel and unusual punishment - I think I could get an injunction.

 

[Foxfyre]

Perhaps we are seeing some of that intractable unwillingness to relinquish a cherished belief or concept or conviction here?

Thesis: I would fight anybody who would presume to overthrow the government.

Challenge to thesis: What would it take for you to be willing to defend yourself against your government?

Response: Non sequitur.

Challenge repeated this time with examples of unacceptable behavior by those in government.

Response: I didn't do it before. (Presumably suggesting that such offenses have already been committed.)

Challenge repeated taking government offenses to absurdity.

Response: Non sequitur.
*******************************************

As I see it, this sequence is a beautiful illustration of unwillingness to bend or even modify a stated conviction. As the stated conviction becomes less defensible we begin to see avoidance of the subject, bobbing, seaving, diversion, red herrings, straw men, or whatever can divert from having to directly address the issue.

Earlier we saw all of this plus ad hominem and direct insult thrown into the mix.

A good illustration of common human nature I think.

There was a time in my lifetime that true 'peaceniks'--those who could not be goaded into defending anything for any reason--were a tiny minority and most people would risk life and liberty to resist an overthrow of the U.S. Constitution. I sometimes now wonder whether that would still be true, but there is no way to tell so long as (the generic) we are too inflexible to discuss it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Hard to make an absolute blanket statement like that. But I cannot conceive of anything that would prompt me to take up arms against my country. Try me - see if you can come up with something outlandish enough.

How about pushing programs that bankrupt the country causing global financial collapse, then ceding Americas sovereignty over to a global government as a solution.

I didn't pick up a gun when Reagan, Bush, Carter, or Bush II ran up the deficit - not likely to do it now, although I will makes sure elected officials understand that I don't like deficits and I'm gonna try to convince as many people as possible to vote for candidates who are fiscally responsible pay-go types.

In terms of IF the government of the United States of America is "outsourced" then I would not consider resistence an assault against the United States of America - we could get the aliens we befriend to help us out.

Anyone got anything a little more plausible?

No one has done what Obama has done, we are about to lose our AAA credit rating ,That will cause the interest on the debt to increase, we will not be able to pay the debt and run the country , This will cause hyper inflation and a likely repudiation of the debt, causing a global collapse .
The solution with be global government .
Do worry you wont have to wait very long to find out if Im right tor wrong.

 

[vharlow]

There are still several lawsuits, and there are still 3 in 10 who believe he was born elsewhere. Again, I know I've said this before, it's ironic that the person fighting hardest to uphold the Constitutional requirements of eligibility is an immigrant who was raised under a totalitarian regime. She recognizes what is happening while the bulk of the population are like frogs in the pot, and don't even know they are being cooked.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Perhaps we are seeing some of that intractable unwillingness to relinquish a cherished belief or concept or conviction here?

Thesis: I would fight anybody who would presume to overthrow the government.

Challenge to thesis: What would it take for you to be willing to defend yourself against your government?

Response: Non sequitur.

Challenge repeated this time with examples of unacceptable behavior by those in government.

Response: I didn't do it before. (Presumably suggesting that such offenses have already been committed.)

Challenge repeated taking government offenses to absurdity.

Response: Non sequitur.
*******************************************

As I see it, this sequence is a beautiful illustration of unwillingness to bend or even modify a stated conviction. As the stated conviction becomes less defensible we begin to see avoidance of the subject, bobbing, seaving, diversion, red herrings, straw men, or whatever can divert from having to directly address the issue.

Earlier we saw all of this plus ad hominem and direct insult thrown into the mix.

A good illustration of common human nature I think.

There was a time in my lifetime that true 'peaceniks'--those who could not be goaded into defending anything for any reason--were a tiny minority and most people would risk life and liberty to resist an overthrow of the U.S. Constitution. I sometimes now wonder whether that would still be true, but there is no way to tell so long as (the generic) we are too inflexible to discuss it.

Oh they will play a shell game about what they will fight to defend ,
until it it time to do the actual fighting, then ball is magically no longer under the shell.

 

[nodoginnafight]

No one has done what Obama has done,

yeah .... yeah .... yeah .......

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh they will play a shell game about what they will fight to defend , until it it time to do the actual fighting, then ball is magically no longer under the shell.

I agree. But while we are still under the shell about that or anything else, oh how difficult it is to even modify or qualify our emphatically stated conviction, much less admit that it is wrong.

Which is, of course, the thesis implied in the thread starter. I wonder how many problems we could avoid and how many positive solutions we might find more quickly if that were not so?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Perhaps we are seeing some of that intractable unwillingness to relinquish a cherished belief or concept or conviction here?

Thesis: I would fight anybody who would presume to overthrow the government.

Challenge to thesis: What would it take for you to be willing to defend yourself against your government?

Response: Non sequitur.

Challenge repeated this time with examples of unacceptable behavior by those in government.

Response: I didn't do it before. (Presumably suggesting that such offenses have already been committed.)

Challenge repeated taking government offenses to absurdity.

Response: Non sequitur.
*******************************************

As I see it, this sequence is a beautiful illustration of unwillingness to bend or even modify a stated conviction. As the stated conviction becomes less defensible we begin to see avoidance of the subject, bobbing, seaving, diversion, red herrings, straw men, or whatever can divert from having to directly address the issue.

Earlier we saw all of this plus ad hominem and direct insult thrown into the mix.

A good illustration of common human nature I think.

There was a time in my lifetime that true 'peaceniks'--those who could not be goaded into defending anything for any reason--were a tiny minority and most people would risk life and liberty to resist an overthrow of the U.S. Constitution. I sometimes now wonder whether that would still be true, but there is no way to tell so long as (the generic) we are too inflexible to discuss it.

Oh they will play a shell game about what they will fight to defend ,
until it it time to do the actual fighting, then ball is magically no longer under the shell.

I won't fight to defend YOUR interpretation of the constitution
A good illustration of trying to get someone to accept a faulty assumption and bestow legitimacy to it by responding as if it were true .....

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No one has done what Obama has done,

yeah .... yeah .... yeah .......

I think we found your dog.

 

[MaggieMae]

How about pushing programs that bankrupt the country causing global financial collapse, then ceding Americas sovereignty over to a global government as a solution.

I didn't pick up a gun when Reagan, Bush, Carter, or Bush II ran up the deficit - not likely to do it now, although I will makes sure elected officials understand that I don't like deficits and I'm gonna try to convince as many people as possible to vote for candidates who are fiscally responsible pay-go types.

In terms of IF the government of the United States of America is "outsourced" then I would not consider resistence an assault against the United States of America - we could get the aliens we befriend to help us out.

Anyone got anything a little more plausible?

No one has done what Obama has done, we are about to lose our AAA credit rating ,That will cause the interest on the debt to increase, we will not be able to pay the debt and run the country , This will cause hyper inflation and a likely repudiation of the debt, causing a global collapse .
The solution with be global government .
Do worry you wont have to wait very long to find out if Im right tor wrong.

We are not "about to" lose the credit rating. That warning has been there since the deficit reached over a trillion last year. Which isn't to say we should just let it slide further, but I continue to believe smarter people than you and me are not just aware of that danger but will ultimately do something about it.

Reducing deficit key to U.S. rating: Moody's
Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:28am EDT

HONG KONG (Reuters) - The United States, which posted a record deficit in the last fiscal year, may lose its Aaa-rating if it does not reduce the gap to manageable levels in the next 3-4 years, Moody's Investors Service said on Thursday.

The U.S. government posted a deficit of $1.417 trillion in the year ended September 30 as the deep recession and a series of bank rescues cut a gaping hole in its public finances. The White House has forecast deficits of more than $1 trillion through fiscal 2011.

"The Aaa rating of the U.S. is not guaranteed," said Steven Hess, Moody's lead analyst for the United States said in an interview with Reuters Television.

"So if they don't get the deficit down in the next 3-4 years to a sustainable level, then the rating will be in jeopardy."

Moody's has a stable outlook on the U.S. rating, which indicates a change is not expected over the next 18 months.

Earlier this year, financial markets were spooked by concerns about the risk of the United States losing its top rating after Standard & Poor's revised its outlook on Britain to negative from stable, indicating the risk of a downgrade.

Hess said that reducing the budget deficit would be a challenge.

"Raising taxes is never popular and difficult politically so we have to see if the government can do that or cut expenditure," he said while adding it would be tough to reduce expenditure.

Reducing deficit key to U.S. rating: Moody's | U.S. | Reuters

 

[nodoginnafight]

I didn't pick up a gun when Reagan, Bush, Carter, or Bush II ran up the deficit - not likely to do it now, although I will makes sure elected officials understand that I don't like deficits and I'm gonna try to convince as many people as possible to vote for candidates who are fiscally responsible pay-go types.

In terms of IF the government of the United States of America is "outsourced" then I would not consider resistence an assault against the United States of America - we could get the aliens we befriend to help us out.

Anyone got anything a little more plausible?

No one has done what Obama has done, we are about to lose our AAA credit rating ,That will cause the interest on the debt to increase, we will not be able to pay the debt and run the country , This will cause hyper inflation and a likely repudiation of the debt, causing a global collapse .
The solution with be global government .
Do worry you wont have to wait very long to find out if Im right tor wrong.

We are not "about to" lose the credit rating. That warning has been there since the deficit reached over a trillion last year. Which isn't to say we should just let it slide further, but I continue to believe smarter people than you and me are not just aware of that danger but will ultimately do something about it.

Reducing deficit key to U.S. rating: Moody's
Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:28am EDT

HONG KONG (Reuters) - The United States, which posted a record deficit in the last fiscal year, may lose its Aaa-rating if it does not reduce the gap to manageable levels in the next 3-4 years, Moody's Investors Service said on Thursday.

The U.S. government posted a deficit of $1.417 trillion in the year ended September 30 as the deep recession and a series of bank rescues cut a gaping hole in its public finances. The White House has forecast deficits of more than $1 trillion through fiscal 2011.

"The Aaa rating of the U.S. is not guaranteed," said Steven Hess, Moody's lead analyst for the United States said in an interview with Reuters Television.

"So if they don't get the deficit down in the next 3-4 years to a sustainable level, then the rating will be in jeopardy."

Moody's has a stable outlook on the U.S. rating, which indicates a change is not expected over the next 18 months.

Earlier this year, financial markets were spooked by concerns about the risk of the United States losing its top rating after Standard & Poor's revised its outlook on Britain to negative from stable, indicating the risk of a downgrade.

Hess said that reducing the budget deficit would be a challenge.

"Raising taxes is never popular and difficult politically so we have to see if the government can do that or cut expenditure," he said while adding it would be tough to reduce expenditure.

Reducing deficit key to U.S. rating: Moody's | U.S. | Reuters

But Maggie - Obama is responsible for 100% of that deficit - didn't you hear - NO OTHER PRESIDENT has ever run a deficit - no other president!!!!

This hyperbole, straw man, loaded question, make up BS, hate mongering, spin cycle nonesense is so unbelievably boring.

 

[Foxfyre]

I won't fight to defend YOUR interpretation of the constitution A good illustration of trying to get someone to accept a faulty assumption and bestow legitimacy to it by responding as if it were true .....

But the question is not what you would not fight for. The question was what the government would have to do to persuade you to take up arms against those in the government, or in less specific terms, is there nothing the government could do that would persuade you to take up arms against it?

As yet you have not answered that question.

I fully understand how difficult a question it is. But how much would YOU be willing for the government to inappropriately revise the Constitution before you would be alarmed enough, angry enough, afraid enough to act?

I am guessing that the rest of us who are as convinced that there could be circumstances that would force us to actively resist our own government are not that different from you.

The difference is, we don't see those who feel that way as somehow subversive or radical or dangerous or wrong. You have sort of suggested that you do see the rest of us that way and that you would be more likely to see 'us' as the enemy rather than the government. But I am guessing that none of the rest of us are any more radical or dangerous than you are and would not take up arms against the government for any reason short of offenses that would prompt you to do that. But--I am speculating here--if you were to admit that, you would have to modify your previous stated conviction. And that is what is so difficult for so many of us to do. We have to try to defend it even as it becomes less and less defensible.

Again, that is sort of the thesis of this thread.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

We are not "about to" lose the credit rating. That warning has been there since the deficit reached over a trillion last year. Which isn't to say we should just let it slide further, but I continue to believe smarter people than you and me are not just aware of that danger but will ultimately do something about it.

Can you point to anything being done in DC that will
Cut spending?
Slow down government spending ?
increase Government revenues without raising taxes?
Increase confidence in the dollar ,including stopping monetizing the debt.?
Do you see anything changing in the next 3 years?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

But Maggie - Obama is responsible for 100% of that deficit -

.

Strawman .
Im done with you .

 

[nodoginnafight]

As yet you have not answered that question.

Yes, I did. Very clearly. I said I could not conceive of a situation that would prompt me to take up arms against my own county. I invited people to try to come up with a scenario and got alien invasion type fantasies.
So at present I still haven't been able to conceive of or be shown a plausible scenario that lead me to take up arms against my own country.

OK - I did think of one but it's not really my country - if the United States were conquored by a foreign nation, then I would fight against those who would be then calling themselves the government of the United States - but in my estimation - that still would be against "MY" country.