There is NO RISK in privatizing SS and investing in stock market!!!

[healthmyths]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

I have NO INTEREST in getting my hands on people's money.
I HAVE every interest that MY granddaughter can have the opportunity through simple compound interest into a simple savings account over her working years by putting instead of into the Federal budget, the money is put in to accumulating her money!

I've put this chart together showing how at her age 25 when she graduates and begins her career, simply putting the DEDUCTIONS for SS/Medicare into a FDIC secured savings account generating interest payment based on this web site. site:Find Top High Yield Bank Savings Accounts Online

Doing nothing but putting into a FDiC secured interest savings account over working to age 69........
ACCUMULATION at simple interest rate: $725,889
View attachment 32953

Maybe you don't want to get your hands on other people's money, but many do.

Both of my sons have Roth IRA's, regular IRA's and a retirement system from their employers. I was able to save enough to pay off my oldest sons college loans and provide the down payment for a home for my youngest son and his wife. Of course they both pay into SS and Medicare even though both have employer paid health insurance.

You know what a budget is? It's a plan, and plans go awry often. Putting something as important as one's future into a single source isn't a good idea (ask Bernie Madoff's victims). If they never need SS, that would be great. My wife and I don't, but we still receive those checks every month, and every month they go into a money market account and thus circulate through the local economy.

Again.. you are trying to be a god for these people and the difference between me and you is I believe that the majority of people shouldn't be punished for the few.
On the other hand think about what you wrote.
You are taking your SS check and simply reinvesting.
Why are you taking it?
Why don't you invest that money into some new business incubator fund? You don't need the money.
But you are squandering that by putting into a mmf that turns it over to major companies.
Why not take the same money and invest in startups?
My point is people should have the CHOICE and forcing them to pump money back into the Federal government for some cubicle dweller amidst the Ebola crisis, the government’s premier health agencies are burning their taxpayer funded budgets on wasteful programs faster than drunken monkeys. Based on a recent $3.2 million NIH study focused exclusively on getting monkeys drunk, that’s an analogy researchers should readily understand. -
See more at: Hey Journalists 15 Ways NIH And CDC Wasted Taxpayer Money
Perfect example of how wasteful this trillions does to a one size fit's all mentality.
Think a little out side of the box especially with your wasteful use of SS funds.
Don't give it to charity... invest in some struggling entrepreneur.

 

[Jarlaxle]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

I have NO INTEREST in getting my hands on people's money.
I HAVE every interest that MY granddaughter can have the opportunity through simple compound interest into a simple savings account over her working years by putting instead of into the Federal budget, the money is put in to accumulating her money!

I've put this chart together showing how at her age 25 when she graduates and begins her career, simply putting the DEDUCTIONS for SS/Medicare into a FDIC secured savings account generating interest payment based on this web site. site:Find Top High Yield Bank Savings Accounts Online

Doing nothing but putting into a FDiC secured interest savings account over working to age 69........
ACCUMULATION at simple interest rate: $725,889
View attachment 32953

Maybe you don't want to get your hands on other people's money, but many do.

Both of my sons have Roth IRA's, regular IRA's and a retirement system from their employers. I was able to save enough to pay off my oldest sons college loans and provide the down payment for a home for my youngest son and his wife. Of course they both pay into SS and Medicare even though both have employer paid health insurance.

You know what a budget is? It's a plan, and plans go awry often. Putting something as important as one's future into a single source isn't a good idea (ask Bernie Madoff's victims). If they never need SS, that would be great. My wife and I don't, but we still receive those checks every month, and every month they go into a money market account and thus circulate through the local economy.

Again.. you are trying to be a god for these people and the difference between me and you is I believe that the majority of people shouldn't be punished for the few.
On the other hand think about what you wrote.
You are taking your SS check and simply reinvesting.
Why are you taking it?
Why don't you invest that money into some new business incubator fund? You don't need the money.
But you are squandering that by putting into a mmf that turns it over to major companies.
Why not take the same money and invest in startups?
My point is people should have the CHOICE and forcing them to pump money back into the Federal government for some cubicle dweller amidst the Ebola crisis, the government’s premier health agencies are burning their taxpayer funded budgets on wasteful programs faster than drunken monkeys. Based on a recent $3.2 million NIH study focused exclusively on getting monkeys drunk, that’s an analogy researchers should readily understand. -
See more at: Hey Journalists 15 Ways NIH And CDC Wasted Taxpayer Money
Perfect example of how wasteful this trillions does to a one size fit's all mentality.
Think a little out side of the box especially with your wasteful use of SS funds.
Don't give it to charity... invest in some struggling entrepreneur.

Thanks so much for sharing. I don't need your advice, and the MM fund is in a credit union which loans money to other members, who purchase goods and services stimulating the local economy. We spent freely, going to new restaurants at least once a week; never shop at Wal-Mart or Sam's Club and mostly vacation in the US. Having been to Europe's major cities and several in South and Central America I'm amazed at how clean they are and how filthy ours are, but I digress. That's for another thread.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and medicare; the irony there is the government will feed, cloth, house and provide you with medical care.

I suppose (Androw's post) that would be true, if one invested in precious metals, especially gold. Waiting nearly 80 years for a pay off seems a bit silly (what was the life expectancy for someone born in 1929, in 1929? Answer: 58 years).

 

[healthmyths]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

See what all the detractors of "privatizing SS" keep doing is perpetuating the myth that investing in equities is "risky stock market".

Over the past 112 years the DJIA has grown at an average of 7.2% a year.

There have been 40 years when there was no gain but losses.
There were 73 years with gains and over 112 years an average gain of over 7.25%
source: Dow Industrial Average Stock Market Index Historical Graph DJIA

Then I recently found this:
Mr. Ramsey often says, for example, that mutual fund investors can expect “average annual” returns of 12 percent, based on the long-term performance of the S&P 500. From 1926 through 2010, his Web site says, the index’s average annual return is 11.84 percent.
http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/dave-ramseys-12-solution/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

The FACTS about the "risky stock market" coupled with common sense that the first 20 years are appreciation driven, the next 10 years a mixture of appreciation and security and the last 10 years mostly security with minor growth investments.

With history on the side and with common sense, the only piece missing is the forced savings that SS/Medicare deductions offer.
If the people that want government involvement i.e. womb to tomb would just look at this reality:
Starting in 2014 if all the dollars put into the General Revenue (see below table) from SS/Medicare deductions were instead of
added to the General revenue were allowed to be invested into equities/treasuries, etc. what would be the taxable revenue?

 

[Andylusion]

Yea and those "poor" misinformed low intelligent 401K losers.. were total dependents on the state to watch over them?
They couldn't make a decision about eating rat poisoning versus food? They didn't have driver's licenses that required them to make
decisions?
Come on! How totally stupid to believe common sense was totally lacking in these 401K losers!
OH wait...of course they had no common sense! They were losers!
Sorry. I have no pity for people that couldn't figure out that at age 60 their accumulated assets should be in the equities market!
Call them "greedy"...or call them dumb.. but one thing you can't say about them is they had any common sense...i.e. you don't put your
nest egg in equities when you are close to retirement!

You're an asshole as well as a phony. Your entire self righteous know-it-all attitude was barely tolerable, until you start attacking peoples' intelligence - people you don't know whose life experience are unique to them alone - that makes your posts not only hateful but foolish.

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and medicare; the irony there is the government will feed, cloth, house and provide you with medical care.

I suppose (Androw's post) that would be true, if one invested in precious metals, especially gold. Waiting nearly 80 years for a pay off seems a bit silly (what was the life expectancy for someone born in 1929, in 1929? Answer: 58 years).

You just made our point. "Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and Medicare".

Dude... that's our whole point. Thanks. The witness is excused.

Do you not get what you just pointed out? Your system IS TYRANNY. You are a TYRANT. If we don't pay into a system that we don't believe in.... you send your men with guns to force us. Dictatorship?

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson just called you a tyrant. AND YOU ARE.

 

[Wry Catcher]

You're an asshole as well as a phony. Your entire self righteous know-it-all attitude was barely tolerable, until you start attacking peoples' intelligence - people you don't know whose life experience are unique to them alone - that makes your posts not only hateful but foolish.

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

A PonzI Scheme is a fraudulent act ; the social security act is law. Are you really that dumb, or are you a liar?

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and medicare; the irony there is the government will feed, cloth, house and provide you with medical care.

I suppose (Androw's post) that would be true, if one invested in precious metals, especially gold. Waiting nearly 80 years for a pay off seems a bit silly (what was the life expectancy for someone born in 1929, in 1929? Answer: 58 years).

You just made our point. "Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and Medicare".

Dude... that's our whole point. Thanks. The witness is excused.

Do you not get what you just pointed out? Your system IS TYRANNY. You are a TYRANT. If we don't pay into a system that we don't believe in.... you send your men with guns to force us. Dictatorship?

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson just called you a tyrant. AND YOU ARE.

You're an idiot. Jefferson would agree.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and medicare; the irony there is the government will feed, cloth, house and provide you with medical care.

I suppose (Androw's post) that would be true, if one invested in precious metals, especially gold. Waiting nearly 80 years for a pay off seems a bit silly (what was the life expectancy for someone born in 1929, in 1929? Answer: 58 years).

You just made our point. "Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and Medicare".

Dude... that's our whole point. Thanks. The witness is excused.

Do you not get what you just pointed out? Your system IS TYRANNY. You are a TYRANT. If we don't pay into a system that we don't believe in.... you send your men with guns to force us. Dictatorship?

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson just called you a tyrant. AND YOU ARE.

You're an idiot. Jefferson would agree.

OOOOooooo... the classic "I know you are, but what am I?" response. You are such a smrt little boy!

Funny because his quotes suggest otherwise.

 

[Andylusion]

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

A PonzI Scheme is a fraudulent act ; the social security act is law. Are you really that dumb, or are you a liar?

If we made a law that you are an idiot, that would make it true huh? We can just legislate reality? If they passed a law that "Madoff investment was not a ponzi scheme", then it wouldn't be, not because it was any different than a ponzi scheme, because the law said it wasn't?

You realize that you are a perfect character in Ayn Rands Atlas Shrugged? The age of reason is dead, and because the law says SS is not a ponzi scheme, then it isn't... because we said so.... therefore it's not.... no matter how functionally it is.

 

[TooTall]

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

A PonzI Scheme is a fraudulent act ; the social security act is law. Are you really that dumb, or are you a liar?

Social Security was a law enacted as Insurance to provide income to the elderly to supplement their savings for retirement. It evolved over the years into a gigantic mandatory entitlement program for everyone.

I was for the Bush proposal to give people the option to put aside 10% of their SS 'contributions' into the stock market. Upon retirement the funds plus earnings would be given to the individual in a lump sum, as is presently done with a 401K. The people would still be 90% vested in the SS program and get a monthly check for SS. If the person died before retirement age, the next of kin would get what was in the savings to help with funeral expenses.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There is no law which prevents every person in this country from making retirement investments. Paying into SS & Medicare is like buying insurance, with one very important distinction - the money you put in you will get back if you live long enough; and if you live to a ripe old age you will receive more.

All this crap about how great investments are, are predicted on best case scenarios. In October 2008 reality hit home for too many Americans whose plans went awry. That home worth half a million dollars was underwater because the financial services industry offered 'wonderful' second and third mortgages, with a "What Me Worry" guarantee; and others experienced more paper money disappear as the stocks they held lost value.

But, they didn't lose the insurance they held in SS and Medicare. I suspect that those above are solely interested in getting their greedy little hands on other peoples money to play with - for a fee of course. Concern for the working men and women is their last consideration, as can be seen in the disdain they hold for those who haven't planned ahead. Yes, some people are lazy, some wait until tomorrow (which never comes), some earned too little and some spend everything they have on necessities or toys. Many will need the safety net and it's not going anywhere soon.

More bullshit...Social Security is the same kind of "insurance" that businessmen in Boston bought from Whitey Bulger. I guess you might call it "fire" insurance. Like those people, my money is taken from me at gunpoint.

Someone (I think Androw) posted an analysis of the WORST-case...getting into the market just before the 1929 crash, and getting out just AFTER the most recent crash. Guess what: had you done that, you would still have MADE money! (I cannot link to the post because the board's search function hasn't been working for three days.)

Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and medicare; the irony there is the government will feed, cloth, house and provide you with medical care.

I suppose (Androw's post) that would be true, if one invested in precious metals, especially gold. Waiting nearly 80 years for a pay off seems a bit silly (what was the life expectancy for someone born in 1929, in 1929? Answer: 58 years).

You just made our point. "Feel free to (try) and not pay into SS and Medicare".

Dude... that's our whole point. Thanks. The witness is excused.

Do you not get what you just pointed out? Your system IS TYRANNY. You are a TYRANT. If we don't pay into a system that we don't believe in.... you send your men with guns to force us. Dictatorship?

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson just called you a tyrant. AND YOU ARE.

You're an idiot. Jefferson would agree.

OOOOooooo... the classic "I know you are, but what am I?" response. You are such a smrt little boy!

Funny because his quotes suggest otherwise.

Jefferson (and other founders) wrote at a different time and to a specific audience. Keep in mind, TJ was a criminal in the eye of the crown, and needed to convince others that the quest for independence was necessary. Had he not he would have been hung.

Taking his words at face value today is absurd, paying a LAWFUL TAX IS NOT TYRANNY, NOR IS IT STEALING. Those arguments are nothing but hyperbole, used to justify an ideology that is neither pragmatic nor adroit.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

A PonzI Scheme is a fraudulent act ; the social security act is law. Are you really that dumb, or are you a liar?

If we made a law that you are an idiot, that would make it true huh? We can just legislate reality? If they passed a law that "Madoff investment was not a ponzi scheme", then it wouldn't be, not because it was any different than a ponzi scheme, because the law said it wasn't?

You realize that you are a perfect character in Ayn Rands Atlas Shrugged? The age of reason is dead, and because the law says SS is not a ponzi scheme, then it isn't... because we said so.... therefore it's not.... no matter how functionally it is.

Moron, there is no FRAUD, thus it is not a crime. No one is lead to believe that SS is all one needs in retirement. Some people choose to rely solely on SS, some need to do to circumstances.

 

[Flopper]

You're an asshole as well as a phony. Your entire self righteous know-it-all attitude was barely tolerable, until you start attacking peoples' intelligence - people you don't know whose life experience are unique to them alone - that makes your posts not only hateful but foolish.

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

Apparently you're generalizing the topic from a debate over the merits of privatizing social security to a debate over elimination of government programs to force people to take personal responsibility for their lives

The problem with this theory is two fold. First, legislation can't be passed, which should end the debate. Programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and other major social programs are very popular with the public. You need only to look at past efforts to abolish them. Secondly, the theory is based on the idea that the nation would be better off without safety nets. There is no evidence to support that. It's analogous to removing the net below trapeze artists. You may get a better show without safety nets but you also may have some dead trapeze artists.

And apparently YOU DIDN"T READ anything... again generalizations...
Improve SS/Medicare by:
1) Starting with EVERYONE UNDER 55... NOT NOW to those approaching or on SS/Medicare but any under 55 this would apply.
2) Under 55 retirement raised to 69. After all 65 was the life span in 1930s when SS established today age 75 is the average life span.
3) Under 55 CHOICE... FREEDOM to CHOOSE!
a) Stay exactly as is... except age retirement 69.
b) Choose to manage accumulation but can not get borrow, cash in till retirement age.
1) choose to direct all accumulations into FDIC guaranteed savings account.. totally guaranteed.. totally secure.
2) Choose to direct most into secured investments like FDIC savings, treasuries (just as SS buys today!)...
3) Choose to invest in equities that have over 112 years appreciated at 7.5% a year.

CHOICE NOT dictated. Freedom to do what nearly half of all households are doing now ...BUT TAX sheltered using PRE-TAX income
invest in mutual funds..From 1926 through 2010, his Web site says, the index’s average annual return is 11.84 percent.
http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/dave-ramseys-12-solution/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I've attached a revised spreadsheet showing using that 11.84% over the 40 years of accumulation for a worker.
Again.. this is NOT possible to day with SS/Medicare but if half of all households use mutual funds and they had the
opportunity to direct to the same funds but using BEFORE TAX and tax sheltered monies... $3,442,889 at the above rates
for 20 year accumulation, moving age 46 to more secured lower rate of return and then age 65 total secured investments.
View attachment 32951

I see three problems with your plan.
1. Many younger workers, under 35 would use their freedom of choice not to invest the funds at all, then when there're older they will invest in risky investments to make up for the years they didn't invest. This is exactly what's happening today with tax sheltered retirement plans.
2. Although for planning purposes, we project 25, 35, or 40 years to accumulate savings for retirement but in reality, we never know how long we might have to work. If we become disable, there may be little or no retirement savings to support the family. Even if you hang on for 35 years or so, the unthinkable can happen. A stock market crash followed by years of poor market performance can leave you nothing to live on.
3. Lastly, most Americans want security. They want assurance that there will be something there when they can no longer work. Even if they follow bad investment advice and lose their money or their husband goes nuts and invests everything in commonly futures, they won't be homeless or depending on relatives to survive when they can't work. This is why American have overwhelming supported social security. With the demise of pension plans and more uncertainly than every about future employment, people are becoming much more concerned with security.

 

[healthmyths]

I am NOT against SS! I am against the phony premise that the majority of americans are too stupid to choose where THEIR money should go!
I am against the idiocy that the retirement age of 65 is still in place when that was the life span in the 30s which is why it was used!
Today the life span is 80!
I am for all people under AGE 55 to choose whether they can tell SS where to put their money be it into bank savings accounts or
high risk equities... it should be the person decision.
I am for the retirement age to be raised for ALL people under age 55 to age 69!
Given these three changes:
1) You can under age 55 keep the current method of SS
2) Or under age 55 choose to direct where the deduction will be put and based on HISTORY a person age 25 working 45 years
will put in over $300,000. Over 45 years putting initially into growth equities that historically appreciated at 7% a year by the time
the 25 is 50 they've accumulated nearly $1 million. At this point smart and most Americans put MOST of this secured investments
and the least in risk equities.
By the time then they are 69 their "nest egg" has grown to over $1 million. Putting most in an annuity paying them for life and
the rest for health/mad money they will also have something for their family.
3) Increase retirement to age 69.

But far from thinking as YOU do that most Americans are stupid, I trust most Americans to have more common sense then you for sure!
Most people know that the closer they are to retirement the more secure their nest egg should be... all but idiots like you think they
would leave their 401Ks in high risk equities at their time of approaching retirement!

I would say at least 1/3 of American adults lack the incentive to save for retirement. In spite of the tax benefits of retirement plans and employer contributions, 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households, do not have any retirement account assets. It's not that they are unaware of the need to save for retirement but rather there are higher priorities.

Jobs today simply don't last very long. The average employee spends only 4.4 years in a job. They leave with little retirement build up and quite often just spend it, particularly young workers when retirement savings yield the biggest rewards.

The average American family has over $15,000 in credit card debt, has emergency funds that will last less than 3 months, has little are no retirement savings, lives from paycheck to paycheck. 239 million are one financial setback away from economic ruin. The fact is most Americans do a lousy job of managing their finances. Give them the option to manage their social security funds and we will see a huge welfare program for retirees in 30 years who have mismanaged their investments.

People that successful manage their investments mistakenly think that everyone has the skills and incentives to do likewise.

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

Apparently you're generalizing the topic from a debate over the merits of privatizing social security to a debate over elimination of government programs to force people to take personal responsibility for their lives

The problem with this theory is two fold. First, legislation can't be passed, which should end the debate. Programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and other major social programs are very popular with the public. You need only to look at past efforts to abolish them. Secondly, the theory is based on the idea that the nation would be better off without safety nets. There is no evidence to support that. It's analogous to removing the net below trapeze artists. You may get a better show without safety nets but you also may have some dead trapeze artists.

And apparently YOU DIDN"T READ anything... again generalizations...
Improve SS/Medicare by:
1) Starting with EVERYONE UNDER 55... NOT NOW to those approaching or on SS/Medicare but any under 55 this would apply.
2) Under 55 retirement raised to 69. After all 65 was the life span in 1930s when SS established today age 75 is the average life span.
3) Under 55 CHOICE... FREEDOM to CHOOSE!
a) Stay exactly as is... except age retirement 69.
b) Choose to manage accumulation but can not get borrow, cash in till retirement age.
1) choose to direct all accumulations into FDIC guaranteed savings account.. totally guaranteed.. totally secure.
2) Choose to direct most into secured investments like FDIC savings, treasuries (just as SS buys today!)...
3) Choose to invest in equities that have over 112 years appreciated at 7.5% a year.

CHOICE NOT dictated. Freedom to do what nearly half of all households are doing now ...BUT TAX sheltered using PRE-TAX income
invest in mutual funds..From 1926 through 2010, his Web site says, the index’s average annual return is 11.84 percent.
http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/13/dave-ramseys-12-solution/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I've attached a revised spreadsheet showing using that 11.84% over the 40 years of accumulation for a worker.
Again.. this is NOT possible to day with SS/Medicare but if half of all households use mutual funds and they had the
opportunity to direct to the same funds but using BEFORE TAX and tax sheltered monies... $3,442,889 at the above rates
for 20 year accumulation, moving age 46 to more secured lower rate of return and then age 65 total secured investments.
View attachment 32951

I see three problems with your plan.
1. Many younger workers, under 35 would use their freedom of choice not to invest the funds at all, then when there're older they will invest in risky investments to make up for the years they didn't invest. This is exactly what's happening today with tax sheltered retirement plans.
2. Although for planning purposes, we project 25, 35, or 40 years to accumulate savings for retirement but in reality, we never know how long we might have to work. If we become disable, there may be little or no retirement savings to support the family. Even if you hang on for 35 years or so, the unthinkable can happen. A stock market crash followed by years of poor market performance can leave you nothing to live on.
3. Lastly, most Americans want security. They want assurance that there will be something there when they can no longer work. Even if they follow bad investment advice and lose their money or their husband goes nuts and invests everything in commonly futures, they won't be homeless or depending on relatives to survive when they can't work. This is why American have overwhelming supported social security. With the demise of pension plans and more uncertainly than every about future employment, people are becoming much more concerned with security.

1. Exaggeration ALERT!!!!..."Many younger under 35.." how crappy to make such a GUESS!
But you are so wrong! The under 55 worker has a choice:
a) keep the same method i.e. paid in SS pays out no choices nothing just like it is now!
b) BUT if the "under 35" decides to CHOOSE the self directed option then:
monies will be deducted and THEN where would they go?
There is a decision the under 35 has to make either Put it into the bank savings or invest!
So your point is is moot in that they either stay with traditional and have no responsibilities guess what that's what happens today!
Or they make the decision to put into secured or appreciation... BUT it is their CHOICE and has to be done...as the monies will be
going somewhere!!!
2. Guess you never heard of disability insurance? Workman's comp?

3. Lastly YOU are interpreting "MOST AMERICANS want security"..So putting your entire future in the hands of the government is your
solution? My goodness what a good little worker ant! Even more important that the worker has the choice!
Why is giving people choice YOUR decision? Or the Government's decision???

Like most people that hate capitalism, hate self determination, self reliance you think YOU have the answers!

I don't have the answers for these people other then at least give them the choice!
They should be given the chance to succeed WHICH by the way you totally ignore the FACT THAT MOST DO!
Are you aware that half the household in america have mutual funds?
Nearly half of all U.S. households owned mutual funds in 2005, compared with less than 6 percent in 1980.
The 91 million individuals who own mutual funds include many different types of people with a variety of financial goals
Section 6 Mutual Fund Owners Who Are They and Where Do They Purchase Fund Shares
Are you aware that people today have MORE assets then people did in the 30s?

But please don't exaggerate with assumptions that most Americans are stupid and can't use their forced savings to accumulate
assets that can't be touched till retirement. You keep forgetting the majority of people are capable....

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

[...]

A Ponzi scheme is a progressive process in which the exponential projection is limited by the finite number of eligible participants, as in the example of Bernie Madoff's operation. The Social Security Program operates with an infinite, non-exponential participant projection -- which is why it has been functioning flawlessly since 1935.

The only problem with Social Security's current status is failure to adapt to increasing life-expectancy by increasing eligibility age. As it is, the Program will function status-quo without any adjustments until 2037. But appropriate adjustments will ensure its flawless progress indefinitely.

 

[Andylusion]

No, that's not what we think. We think the left has created a system that reduces the incentives to do likewise.

The reason people live for the moment, is because culturally we have accepted a belief system that "Society should take care of me".

When you believe you are "entitled" to Health care, food, housing, clothing, and everything else... your incentive to make sure you have taken care of your own needs is lower.

I've met, and talked with people that openly said "Social Security will take care of me". In fact I had a roommate in my own home, who said as much. And this chick spent every dollar she earned. Paid on Friday, broke by Thursday.

She had no intention whatsoever of saving for retirement because she believed Social Security would take care of her.

If she knew that when she couldn't work anymore, she would be absolutely broke, she wouldn't blown every dollar she earned like that. She would have had 'incentive' to save.

You keep looking at a situation, created by the incentives you created, and then cry that people are not preparing for retirement.

Yes... we know... the problem is in your mirror. Your faulty ideology created this problem.... and now it's catching up with us.

Doesn't matter what your intentions are, or how much you think people need it. The system is going broke. Soviet Union is gone. Greece is bankrupt. Venezuela is starving. Cuba is impoverished. China adopted Capitalism. India is Corporate now.

Your system doesn't work. Whether is economy wide socialism, or just social pension systems. It fails every single time it's tried.

SS HAS worked for three generations. It is not socialism nor is it a Ponzi Scheme. Yes, some people are irresponsible and callous conservatives will be happy to step over their bodies - most of us will not.

Of course it's a ponzi scheme. You'd have to be a brainless idiotic leftard to not realize that.

You take money from X to pay for W, and the take money from Y to pay for X, and then take from Z to pay for Y.

That is EXACTLY how a ponzi scheme works. Bernie Madoff, got money from new investors to pay for old investors, then money from newer investors to pay for the new investors, than he ran out of investors to pay for the newer investors, and the system crashed.

That is EXACTLY what is happening in Social Security, and you are just too plain stupid to figure it out.

The 60s - 70s generation paid for the WW2 generation. Then the 80s - 90s Generation is paying the 60s - 70s generation. Now the Current generation is trying to be forced to pay for the 80s - 90s Generation, except we're starting to refuse to do it.

So instead they are cutting benefits. Raise the retirement age to 70 or higher.

Why? Can't find enough workers to pay for the takers. To many people drinking the water, and not enough carrying it. Just like Madoff, the system is running out of other people's money to take.

If you think it's a really not a Ponzi scheme, then you are just ignorant. Flat out, ignorant.

A PonzI Scheme is a fraudulent act ; the social security act is law. Are you really that dumb, or are you a liar?

If we made a law that you are an idiot, that would make it true huh? We can just legislate reality? If they passed a law that "Madoff investment was not a ponzi scheme", then it wouldn't be, not because it was any different than a ponzi scheme, because the law said it wasn't?

You realize that you are a perfect character in Ayn Rands Atlas Shrugged? The age of reason is dead, and because the law says SS is not a ponzi scheme, then it isn't... because we said so.... therefore it's not.... no matter how functionally it is.

Moron, there is no FRAUD, thus it is not a crime. No one is lead to believe that SS is all one needs in retirement. Some people choose to rely solely on SS, some need to do to circumstances.

I didn't say it was a crime stupid. You are the dumbest idiot I gave a chance to lately. You are proving yourself not worth reading.

Doesn't matter if it's a fraud or not.

Ponzi Schemes are Ponzi schemes, because of how they work. Take from Y to pay X, take from Z to pay Y. That's how it works.

And honestly.... IT IS FRAUDULENT. When you get your Social Security statement, which I happen to have, it says that I have an account with money in it.

Fact: I don't have an account with money in it. If I do, tell me the bank where the account is, where the money is located? Where are the investments? Where is my ROI statement? Doesn't exist.

With my Mutual fund, I can look up the stocks that are in my portfolio, and see I have stock in Walmart, Exxon, Ford, and a host of others. Actual assets, in an actual account, with *MY* name on it. ANd if I so choose, I can cash those assets out, and take my money back.... because it is *MY* money.

Social Security..... can't do any of that. It's a fraud. It's not real.

And also, much like a Ponzi Scheme, as the scheme runs out of money, people stop getting their dues. What do you think raising the retirement age to 70 is? It's exactly what I would expect from a ponzi scheme.

 

[Billy000]

What is to stop social security to become a for profit nightmare? That's the real issue.

 

[healthmyths]

What is to stop social security to become a for profit nightmare? That's the real issue.

Explain why it would be a nightmare? Instead of costing the government in debt there would be a profit.
See the problem with people like you is you take the exceptional and make it the rule!
YES there is no question there have been Enrons in the world as well as Solyndras!
They are the exceptions!
Most "for profit" organizations are made up of people unlike you who are normal. Go to work. Do their job. Get their paycheck.
What is wrong with that? Frankly I have a whole lot more respect for the "for profits" because they contribute to the betterment of society versus the "non-profits" which are a DRAG!
Non profits constantly looking for hand outs ...from the for profits!
We have a President that has NEVER worked for a for profit organization and thus he detests as obviously you do "for profits".
How stupid. Obama was paid by the Annenberg Foundation that was formed by
Walter Hubert Annenberg (March 13, 1908 – October 1, 2002) was an American publisher, philanthropist, and diplomat most
of his wealth coming from TV Guide!
Think of it! You bought TV Guides. The evil profits paid Obama's salary. And forever the idiot Obama wants to do away with for profits!
And you again with your "evil for profit nightmare" are just as ignorant as Obama!