The voting age should be raised

[Article 15]

I dont think anyone should join the military until they are age 21 or higher..possibly higher. But then again, I would HATE it if my children joined the military at ALL...thats just a mother's point of view.

Jamie

That's not necessarily a "mothers" point of view...it's YOUR point of view. I'm a mother myself and if my daughter chooses to join the military I'll support her decision to do so. There are certainly some advantages to it (job training, GI Bill for school etc.) along with the disadvantages. I'll make damned sure she reads everything she has to sign though so that she really knows and understands what she's getting into.

if a mother says its a mothers pov that she doesn't want her child in the military, and another mother says the opposite, is one invalidated as being the opinion of a mother?

it is said that recruiters are like golfers, they both go for the green (recruiters earn bonuses for high recruitment, and they will say anything to get recruits!) so having anyone read what they are signing is a good move. might even have a lawyer look it over. if you wouldn't tell her, would your daughter have the capacity to take that step on her own...looking over the documents prior to signing?

Do you have something to back that up with?

 

[Article 15]

People think their children come out being better persons.. I say its because of poor parenting.

Excuse me?

Theres no "excuse me" about it. If it takes the military to make someone a better person, Id say that the parenting of that child/person was pretty god damn poor. The military creates Jar heads.

Jamie

And the corporate world creates douchebags.

Your point?

 

[Missourian]

Well I disagree. The military says "Ill give you 20k to kill someone and then we'll give you schooling in return". Its a bullshit attempt to lure teens into joining the military because their parents are too poor to afford their college tuition....some end up paying with their lives for stuff that doesnt even involve defending our freedom, which was what the military was originally for. My husband was in the Navy and he will agree. The military is an industry that is a parasite of our youth. People think their children come out being better persons.. I say its because of poor parenting.

That would likely be the consequence of having no earthly idea WTF you're talking about.

 

[Missourian]

I dont think anyone should join the military until they are age 21 or higher..possibly higher. But then again, I would HATE it if my children joined the military at ALL...thats just a mother's point of view.

Jamie

That's not necessarily a "mothers" point of view...it's YOUR point of view. I'm a mother myself and if my daughter chooses to join the military I'll support her decision to do so. There are certainly some advantages to it (job training, GI Bill for school etc.) along with the disadvantages. I'll make damned sure she reads everything she has to sign though so that she really knows and understands what she's getting into.

if a mother says its a mothers pov that she doesn't want her child in the military, and another mother says the opposite, is one invalidated as being the opinion of a mother?

it is said that recruiters are like golfers, they both go for the green (recruiters earn bonuses for high recruitment, and they will say anything to get recruits!) so having anyone read what they are signing is a good move. might even have a lawyer look it over. if you wouldn't tell her, would your daughter have the capacity to take that step on her own...looking over the documents prior to signing?

Link to recruiter getting bonuses?

 

[Amanda]

The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if the majority of 18 year-olds in our current society (not the way the society was 20 or 50 or 100 years ago) are sufficiently mature and independent to make such an important decision as who should be elected to government office.

I think it's a fairly generally known fact that young children generally reflect their parents' political views (if it isn't, then this can be a debate point). At some point as adults, we develop our own independence and may no longer share political views with our parents (many of course do share those views, but they arrive at those views independently; in other words, not just because it's what their parents told them to believe). What I'm unsure of is when during the developmental continuum from adolescence to adulthood do people stop taking their parents' view of the world and politics for granted and make independent political decisions?

Given that in other areas of life, indicators of independence seem to appear at a later age than historically (for example, adult children living at home with their parents over the age of 18, still dependent on their parents for financial support, or college students still having their parents come resolve their problems rather than doing it themselves), are 18 year-olds sufficiently independent to perform a function as important as voting, or are they only replicating their parents' votes? (You may disagree with the premise of this statement as well.)

You'll notice, I'm not working from hard data here, but my personal impression of changes in society and maturity of 18 year-olds. Hence, the poll and opportunity to discuss and present both supporting and opposing views.

Above, I probably should have defined majority...simple majority, 2/3 majority, overwhelming majority? I've chosen not to. If the difference would sway your opinion from yes to no, or vice versa, then choose unsure and explain.

Now that I've set up the general question, I'd like to put one restriction on the discussion. Discuss the merits of raising the voting age or keeping the status quo only as they apply to the maturity, independence, education, etc., of people in that age grouping, and not with regard to whether they are permitted or required to do other things at that age. For example, "If they can be sent to war at that age, they should vote," would not be a valid argument in this debate: make the assumption that whatever we set the voting age at, all related responsibilities that require that level of maturity would also be subject to revision as well.

I'll urge those who are around the age of 18 or nearing it to please not simply react to having to wait longer to vote. I tend to think the teens participating on this forum are more mature than the general population, so take into consideration your peers, classmates, etc., and think about whether enough of them have the maturity to make their own informed decisions when it comes to voting to merit keeping the age at 18. Don't worry, I'm not running off to lobby Congress to pass a new law, just thought it would make for an interesting non-partisan discussion.

Read More Here: Should the voting age be raised? Text - Physics Forums Library

I would have to agree with that poster for several reasons. First off, she was correct when she says that children/teens tend to go along with their parents' political views. This would not be something I would want happening in the voting system. I would want Children/Teens (Teens are children to me) to be able to have the mental maturity, which is not gained until age 25, to vote on issues that concerned them.

Second, some teens are not educated enough to be able to be independent in their thinking styles and maybe influenced by the media - moreso than people over the age of 25. The voting would be disrupted if teens were voting merely for what their parents want them to be voting for.

What do you think?

Jamie

I'm going to go with the "you're full of shit" crowd on this 1.

It's amazing how you've managed to get posters from across the political spectrum to jump up and smack you down, that's a rare feat around here.

 

[Amanda]

Ignore the shit heads, the question that you should be really asking is are politicians as a whole so corrupt and the system employed to get them there so corrupt that it dose not matter what the age of the voter is as it has no consequence to those who are in power.

First off, the belief that we have a fair and just system of politics is just that, its a belief, abit like religion, where people just believe in an idea but not requesting any proofs of validity of same. No, all politics and politicans whomever they may be in whatever country in whatever time are corrupt and bought off by the parasite.

Its just an illusion, nothing more, the best thing people could do right now is to not vote at all in any nation that has the right to vote. Because that would bring the system down and that would facilitate change, hopefully for the better.

One of my grandfather's famous quotes is that He wont vote where his vote wont count anyway. I guess I never agreed with him up until recently when I began seeing the statistics thrown here and there and hearing other people's views on the matter. After I got both sides, I am firmly believing that voting is corrupted. I am also under the impression that a lot of voting comes from influence from family and friends - not independent attitudes toward the candidates. I mean, not ALL people vote from being influenced, but a lot of people do - especially the younger generation....simply because they are in a time in their life where they are trying to "fit in" and want to go with the "in" crowd just like in their highschools.

Jamie

Got a link to back that up, or is that just your considered opinion?

I'd say that indeed ALL people are influenced in some way or another, otherwise they wouldn't have an opinion at all.

 

[Amanda]

If you wouldn't let them vote at 18 then they shouldn't be able to join the armed services at 18 either. After all if they don't have the mental maturity to read about, and recognize the consequences of casting a vote then they certainly don't have the maturity to understand the consequences ( up to and including their deaths ) of signing their life over to Uncle Sam either.

I dont think anyone should join the military until they are age 21 or higher..possibly higher. But then again, I would HATE it if my children joined the military at ALL...thats just a mother's point of view.

Jamie

Uh oh... helicopter parent at 2 o'clock...

 

[Amanda]

I dont think anyone should join the military until they are age 21 or higher..possibly higher. But then again, I would HATE it if my children joined the military at ALL...thats just a mother's point of view.

Jamie

That's not necessarily a "mothers" point of view...it's YOUR point of view. I'm a mother myself and if my daughter chooses to join the military I'll support her decision to do so. There are certainly some advantages to it (job training, GI Bill for school etc.) along with the disadvantages. I'll make damned sure she reads everything she has to sign though so that she really knows and understands what she's getting into.

Well I disagree. The military says "Ill give you 20k to kill someone and then we'll give you schooling in return". Its a bullshit attempt to lure teens into joining the military because their parents are too poor to afford their college tuition....some end up paying with their lives for stuff that doesnt even involve defending our freedom, which was what the military was originally for. My husband was in the Navy and he will agree. The military is an industry that is a parasite of our youth. People think their children come out being better persons.. I say its because of poor parenting.

"The best argument against a democracy is a 5 minute conversation with an average voter" Winston Churchill

18 year olds???? voting--I really don't think that is a problem--but I DO BELIEVE A TEST SHOULD BE REQUIRED PRIOR TO BEING ELIGIBLE TO VOTE--regardless of age.

1. Must be able to read & understand English.
2. Must be able to fill out a ballot card--CORRECTLY.
3. Must have logged in at least 50 hours studying candidates- &-past voting records
4. Must have at least a B grade knowledge of what is actually going on in this nation.
AND
5. Must have one college course that was passed in economics 101

If they pass the above they can vote--if they can't they don't vote.

My thoughts anyway.

Id be willing to vote for something like that to happen. That way they would be showing that they are competent enough to vote.

Jamie

Way to disenfranchise the poor.

 

[Amanda]

People think their children come out being better persons.. I say its because of poor parenting.

Excuse me?

Theres no "excuse me" about it. If it takes the military to make someone a better person, Id say that the parenting of that child/person was pretty god damn poor. The military creates Jar heads.

Jamie

No 1 said it "took" the military to do anything. Nice strawman... or not.

BTW, are you speaking as someone that has actually managed to raise a child to adulthood or are you just talking out of your ass?

 

[Amanda]

I dont think anyone should join the military until they are age 21 or higher..possibly higher. But then again, I would HATE it if my children joined the military at ALL...thats just a mother's point of view.

Jamie

That's not necessarily a "mothers" point of view...it's YOUR point of view. I'm a mother myself and if my daughter chooses to join the military I'll support her decision to do so. There are certainly some advantages to it (job training, GI Bill for school etc.) along with the disadvantages. I'll make damned sure she reads everything she has to sign though so that she really knows and understands what she's getting into.

if a mother says its a mothers pov that she doesn't want her child in the military, and another mother says the opposite, is one invalidated as being the opinion of a mother?

it is said that recruiters are like golfers, they both go for the green (recruiters earn bonuses for high recruitment, and they will say anything to get recruits!) so having anyone read what they are signing is a good move. might even have a lawyer look it over. if you wouldn't tell her, would your daughter have the capacity to take that step on her own...looking over the documents prior to signing?

I'll join the chorus in asking for a link. I doubt we'll get it, but I want to get on board early with pointing out the fraud that your arguments are.

 

[Amanda]

"The best argument against a democracy is a 5 minute conversation with an average voter" Winston Churchill

18 year olds???? voting--I really don't think that is a problem--but I DO BELIEVE A TEST SHOULD BE REQUIRED PRIOR TO BEING ELIGIBLE TO VOTE--regardless of age.

1. Must be able to read & understand English.
2. Must be able to fill out a ballot card--CORRECTLY.
3. Must have logged in at least 50 hours studying candidates- &-past voting records
4. Must have at least a B grade knowledge of what is actually going on in this nation.
AND
5. Must have one college course that was passed in economics 101

If they pass the above they can vote--if they can't they don't vote.

My thoughts anyway.

your criteria would eliminate a large chunk of americans from voting.

that could be a good t'ing

Yea, if you're an elitist fascist...

Oh wait, never mind.

 

[Luissa]

That's not necessarily a "mothers" point of view...it's YOUR point of view. I'm a mother myself and if my daughter chooses to join the military I'll support her decision to do so. There are certainly some advantages to it (job training, GI Bill for school etc.) along with the disadvantages. I'll make damned sure she reads everything she has to sign though so that she really knows and understands what she's getting into.

if a mother says its a mothers pov that she doesn't want her child in the military, and another mother says the opposite, is one invalidated as being the opinion of a mother?

it is said that recruiters are like golfers, they both go for the green (recruiters earn bonuses for high recruitment, and they will say anything to get recruits!) so having anyone read what they are signing is a good move. might even have a lawyer look it over. if you wouldn't tell her, would your daughter have the capacity to take that step on her own...looking over the documents prior to signing?

Do you have something to back that up with?

I always thought they made the guys who just got back from boot camp do the recuiting with some older guy who was always alittle wierd. never heard anything about bonuses??
I did have one guy who would call me every day, maybe he was trying to get a bonus?

 

[Article 15]

if a mother says its a mothers pov that she doesn't want her child in the military, and another mother says the opposite, is one invalidated as being the opinion of a mother?

it is said that recruiters are like golfers, they both go for the green (recruiters earn bonuses for high recruitment, and they will say anything to get recruits!) so having anyone read what they are signing is a good move. might even have a lawyer look it over. if you wouldn't tell her, would your daughter have the capacity to take that step on her own...looking over the documents prior to signing?

Do you have something to back that up with?

I always thought they made the guys who just got back from boot camp with some older guy who was always alittle wierd. never heard anything about bonuses??
I did have one guy who would call me every day, maybe he was trying to get a bonus?

Yeah a lot of guys get free leave to help their recruiter when they first get out of basic or tech school but the name of the program eludes me at the moment.

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

 

[Luissa]

Do you have something to back that up with?

I always thought they made the guys who just got back from boot camp with some older guy who was always alittle wierd. never heard anything about bonuses??
I did have one guy who would call me every day, maybe he was trying to get a bonus?

Yeah a lot of guys get free leave to help their recruiter when they first get out of basic or tech school but the name of the program eludes me at the moment.

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

I figured.
This guy would hound me, and I did almost go in the Navy but I got talked out of it.

 

[Xenophon]

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

Funny you should say that A15, guess what poster is demanding I go to HIS forum and play by HIS rules?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion stands thus far. But I'll add my two cents.

I don't think it's right to say that an 18 year old can die for the country but can't have a say in how the country is run. The thing about voting is we each have our own reasons for voting how we do, and that choice reflects our current situation. An 18 year olds reasons shouldn't be discredited just because they're 18 and haven't had as many or the same life experiences as an older person. At 18 I think I was making more of an informed decision then most adults probably do when voting, and at 20 last November I felt the same way.

 

[skookerasbil]

Lets face it..........the Democrats survive based on the vote of the complete dumba-ss!! To me, there should be a minimal competency test..........
Howard Stern went into Harlem and questioned about 50 voting aged people and about 85% thought Palin was Obama's running mate..............

fail......................

minimum competency test ftw

 

[rightwinger]

The founding fathers considered having criteria for voting. Namely being a landowner or having some education. The ability of the working class to make informed decisions was questioned. They wisely decided to allow all adults (as long as they were white males) to vote
Even a bum in the street has a right to vote if he thinks one candidate will do a better job for him than another. Elected officials need to represent everyone

 

[vincubus]

Do you have something to back that up with?

I always thought they made the guys who just got back from boot camp with some older guy who was always alittle wierd. never heard anything about bonuses??
I did have one guy who would call me every day, maybe he was trying to get a bonus?

Yeah a lot of guys get free leave to help their recruiter when they first get out of basic or tech school but the name of the program eludes me at the moment.

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

i am not sure if such a program was in place when i was in or not. regardless, i would not have taken advantage of it.

what i posted i read 20 years ago. things change. *shrugs*.

 

[vincubus]

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

Funny you should say that A15, guess what poster is demanding I go to HIS forum and play by HIS rules?

lol!

i am demanding nothing. youi wanted pics of me and jamie, and i told you i would send you a link to our site. i did just that. what you do is then your choice. i am amazed at the powerlessness you display. yoiu wanted me to post pics in this forum, and i already told you what i would do, and did just that. i gave you what you wanted and what i told yoiui i would do. you refused to open the link. that is your choice.

are you trying to get a mod to back you, because you didn't get your way? there is a name for that. temper tantrum.

if you are going to try these silly games, you should do it behind the scenes. otherwise, i will show you to be the liar that you are.