The single biggest problem with Obamacare.

[Toronado3800]

Remember when I started kidding you about loving them liberal anti trust laws? Was that in the stupid liberals post of yours?

 

[Brutus]

Remember when I started kidding you about loving them liberal anti trust laws? Was that in the stupid liberals post of yours?

show the quote or admit to being a liar and a liberal

 

[Toronado3800]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...-to-understand-capitalism-11.html#post3548546

The whole lot here about police enforcing capitalism and anti trust laws being necessary? You said it like three or four times.

 

[Brutus]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...-to-understand-capitalism-11.html#post3548546

The whole lot here about police enforcing capitalism and anti trust laws being necessary? You said it like three or four times.

and????????????

 

[Toronado3800]

Are you confused because I provided a link to you saying anti-trust/monopoly laws are important enough to use police to enforce? Fine, here are some quotes from Brutus.

Aha! Bluto is a BIG GOVERNMENT CON$ervative who wants his BIG GOVERNMENT to impose Capitalism. No surprise there!!!


Brutus: of course capitalism must always be imposed with policemen courts, government contracts, anti-trust laws, etc!! sorry!!

How would you propose we create more granularity in the financial system without at least some degree of government intervention?

As I said, more firms with less interdependence

And to that end, would you ever support a government led break up of financial institutions in order to limit the risk of institutions that are too big to fail?

anti trust is as old as the hills and especially applicable here as Wall Street can sink the entire worlds economy

Can Capitalism be imposed?
I would have thought it would be the natural condition in the absence of a centrally imposed system.

capitalism is always imposed with policeman, courts, contracts, anti trust laws ,etc, etc

So of course most everyone else, me, and apparently you believe although the Constitution does not expressly give Washington the power to eliminate monopolies it is necessary. Guess the Sherman act is a pretty liberal interpretation of Section 8.

I agree with you btw. Anti trust laws are very necessary, monopolies are an evil of economics of scale, a problem the founding fathers.

Just like the healthcare problem is one they did not see coming while George Washington's doctor's were bleeding folks back to health.

 

[Brutus]

So of course most everyone else, me, and apparently you believe although the Constitution does not expressly give Washington the power to eliminate monopolies it is necessary. Guess the Sherman act is a pretty liberal interpretation of Section 8.

monopolies are trivial as capitalism cures them automatically, but I suppose there is no harm breaking one up if ever there is a really harmful one. IBM broke up the GE monopoly, Microsoft broke up the IBM monopoly, Google broke up the Microsoft monopoly. This is the cycle to expect. It is taught in business schools in fact. THe commerce clause is designed to facilitate interstate and international trade so could be used as basis I'm sure.

I agree with you btw. Anti trust laws are very necessary, monopolies are an evil of economics of scale, a problem the founding fathers.

too stupid!!! there are no trusts or monopolies really thanks to capitalism. Socialism creates them

Just like the healthcare problem is one they did not see coming while George Washington's doctor's were bleeding folks back to health.

too stupid you want a Federal health care trust. BO wants single payer.

 

[Chris]

Yes, monopolies and trusts, and a lot of other economic issues we have are bad. I do think the government should have the power to be able to look out for the interests of the people by restricting all of these. But thats not what the Healthcare bill is, the Healthcare bill is encouraging something of a trust. By giving us socialized healthcare, they are passing the boundary of looking out for us, and going into lets look out for everyone. People who aren't paying into the system can crowd into the medical offices. People taking advantage of an unconstitutional system, that is welfare and related programs, can push people who contribute to the country out of the office. Socialized healthcare isn't at all beneficial to the people who actually deserve it.

Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

But here's a question, "Who are the sick people that don't deserve healthcare?"

 

[Brutus]

. I do think the government should have the power to be able to look out for the interests of the people

I'm sure Hitler Stalin and Mao would have agreed with such a vague statement. We need limited government and sharply defined government. That is what our Founders believed. Any looking out for the people as regards economic matters should be limited to encouraging capitalism.

If for example a company develops a very coercive monopoly, then the government should encourage competition.

 

[Brutus]

[
Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

Yes, most things in Europe and Canada cost about the same as here.
Why is our health care 2-3 times more ? Because we have an inefficient socialist system with many competing overlaping soviet bureaucracies: Medicare, Mediciad, Scip, VA, obsene regulation of insurance.

European countries have less inefficient soviet monopolies without overlap and duplication etc so price in 2-3 times less than there.

This means that if we had capitalist health care here it would cost about half of Europe's health care.

 

[Brutus]

Anti trust laws are very necessary, monopolies are an evil of economics of scale, a problem the founding fathers.

that of course is absurd. That is why you are so afraid to name the monopolies. There are none. Capitalism takes care of them. A monopoly becomes complacent, falls behind, and encourages new competition.

The big case recently was against IBM. Our sleeping liberal soviet bureaucrats were taking IBM to court while Microsoft was inventing the PC to destroy them.

Then our soviet liberals then took Microsoft to court while the internet, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, At&T and Verzion were surrounding them.

Now you understand how capitalism works!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Free enterprise has left 30+ million plus people without the ability to purchase adequate health insurance. Being American doesn't mean being able to make a buck no matter what the cost, but you can feel free to believe that.

Not true.

Now, once I disabuse you of your misunderstnding, I assume a logical person such as yourself will join those of us opposed to this fraudulent bill.

1. Nearly 40% of New Yorkers counted as "uninsured" actually have health security. They are eligible for existing government programs such as Medicaid and have failed to sign up. When they go to a hospital or clinic for care, they will be enrolled. New York runs ads, hands out brochures, and works with community organizations to inform families about these programs.

2. New Yorkers between 19 and 35 years of age are far more likely to be uninsured than older adults. One reason is that New York's insurance laws exploit the young. Young adults are compelled to pay the same "community-rated" price for a health plan as middle-aged people. That's unfair to young adults who need, on average, only $1,500 worth of health care a year.

3. The uninsured are largely newcomers to America, whether here legally or illegally. The UHF data show that 89% of New York's uninsured are foreign born. More people have moved to the U.S. over the last seven years than during any other seven year period in history. Nationwide, 49% of the uninsured have been in the country less than 6 years.
To many newcomers, health insurance is an unfamiliar notion.
'More Uninsured Are Among Ranks of the Employed' - July 9, 2008 - The New York Sun


And, let's not forget that 100% of those in America, citizens and otherwise, all have healthcare.

Again...100%.


Nor should one remain ignorant of the real motivation behind ObamaCare: expansion of the command-and-control type of economy:

4. The federal government will dictate even the tiniest of details, right down to the wording in marketing brochures. As of 2014, health insurance companies will have to follow federal rules in how they market their plans.

a. The standards developed by HHS must require that a plan “meet marketing requirements.” Those requirements are not spelled out, giving HHS free range. HHS could assert authority to regulate every aspect of marketing content of promotional materials; which forms of distribution can be used, and for which enrollees; the languages that must be used; and the size of the type font.
Section 2715 of the Public Health Service Act, added by Section 1001.

 

[Brutus]

Free enterprise has left 30+ million plus people without the ability to purchase adequate health insurance.

Actually our liberal soviet Democrats made competition in health insurace illegal. You see, when companies compete they do it by offering lower prices and better services.

Now you understand how freedom and capitalism works

 

[jgarden]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

- anti-American

- does not rely on free enterprise

- the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise

According to the 2011 CIA World Factbook, that notorious source of liberal propoganda, the life expectancy of the average Canadian (81.38 years) is 3.01 years longer than his/her American counterparts (76.37 years).

Does it make Canadians "anti-American" and/or "mentally challenged," that their public healthcare system cionsistently delivers better results, at a fraction of the cost - which afterall is exactly what "free enterprise" claims to provide!

Does it make some US citizens, "anti-American" and/or "mentally challenged," that they would seek to look beyond their own borders and at least examine the benefits if a public healthcare system on its own merits - one that has been systematically "demonized" by vested-interests in their own country?

If and when the American private sector can provide a healthcare system available to all citizens and comparable to Canadian health outcomes and costs - more power to them! The fact that depite intense public debate, neither they nor their Republican "friends" have neen able to "delivered the goods" speaks volumes!

For "Brutus," real Americans must accept, as a matter of patriotic "faith," that conservative ideology provides all the answers - so why would anyone concern themselves, particularily with "troublesome" facts that might suggest otherwise?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

 

[Chris]

Free enterprise has left 30+ million plus people without the ability to purchase adequate health insurance.

Actually our liberal soviet Democrats made competition in health insurace illegal. You see, when companies compete they do it by offering lower prices and better services.

Now you understand how freedom and capitalism works

No, here's how capitalism works.

You elect George Bush president, then you create a $516 TRILLION DOLLAR derivative Ponzi scheme and suck all the money out of the American economy.

Then you get a bailout from the government and start the cycle all over again, all the while screaming "Socialist!" at anyone who tries to stop you.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.

- anti-American

- does not rely on free enterprise

- the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise

According to the 2011 CIA World Factbook, that notorious source of liberal propoganda, the life expectancy of the average Canadian (81.38 years) is 3.01 years longer than his/her American counterparts (76.37 years).

Does it make Canadians "anti-American" and/or "mentally challenged," that their public healthcare system cionsistently delivers better results, at a fraction of the cost - which afterall is exactly what "free enterprise" claims to provide!

Does it make some US citizens, "anti-American" and/or "mentally challenged," that they would seek to look beyond their own borders and at least examine the benefits if a public healthcare system on its own merits - one that has been systematically "demonized" by vested-interests in their own country?

If and when the American private sector can provide a healthcare system available to all citizens and comparable to Canadian health outcomes and costs - more power to them! The fact that depite intense public debate, neither they nor their Republican "friends" have neen able to "delivered the goods" speaks volumes!

For "Brutus," real Americans must accept, as a matter of patriotic "faith," that conservative ideology provides all the answers - so why would anyone concern themselves, particularily with "troublesome" facts that might suggest otherwise?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

1. Do you understand that propaganda is designed to manipulate one's thinnking, so as to produce a particular outlook?
You may change your view when you realize what your statistics include.

Good...then you may understand how you have been manipulated when you consider the following:

the United States of American has the greatest life span in the Western world.

That is a reflection of the healthcare in the USA.
Healthcare. Medical care.

1. How to judge healthcare:

a) life expectancy: many people die for reasons that can’t be controlled the medical profession, such as auto accidents, murder, etc., and once you factor out care crashes and homicides, the US ranks number one in worldwide life expectancy!

“One often-heard argument, voiced by the New York Times' Paul Krugman and others, is that America lags behind other countries in crude health outcomes. But such outcomes reflect a mosaic of factors, such as diet, lifestyle, drug use and cultural values. It pains me as a doctor to say this, but health care is just one factor in health.

In The Business of Health, Robert Ohsfeldt and John Schneider factor out intentional and unintentional injuries from life-expectancy statistics and find that Americans who don't die in car crashes or homicides outlive people in any other Western country.

And if we measure a health care system by how well it serves its sick citizens, American medicine excels.
Dave Petno | On Freedom

b) How about the result of having food? With so much food, so many choices (tell me about it), we Americans are eating ourselves to death: obesity. Is this the fault of poor healthcare?

From a NYTimes article about ‘Sicko,’ and Cuba:
“Because they don’t have up-to-date cars, they tend to have to exercise more by walking,” he said. “And they may not have a surfeit of food, which keeps them from problems like obesity, but they’re not starving, either.”
Michael Moore - Cuba - Health Care - Medicine - Movies - Cannes - NYTimes.com

2. "If and when the American private sector can provide a healthcare system available to all..."
Well, celebrate! Every single person in the United States has healthcare. Right now. Before ObamaCare.
Wise up.


3. "...comparable to Canadian health outcomes and costs -"

a. The following ‘Universal Healthcare’ countries have higher out-of-pocket costs than the United States:
Out-of-pocket spending as a share of total expenditure on health, 1980-2000 http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/5/53/22364122.pdf (table 4)
Canada, Denmark, Finland, Italy, Spain, Switzerland.

b. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).

Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.

More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).

Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).

5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.
For notes, charts and other stuff:

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care | Publications | National Center for Policy Analysis | NCPA

 

[Gadawg73]

I pay over 30K a year in health insurance premiums. One of my employees has lung cancer now. They have already run up over 100K in bills. And my carrier is the largest health insurance company in the country. To date, they have paid NOTHING. They have denied every bill. Why? They claim my employee is disabled because of her cancer and that she qualifies for Medicare and SS disability. And under the law they can claim whatever they want. Even the hospital where the biopsies and tests were done is filing appeals and taking the position that they should pay. Stall, delay, whatever they can do to try to not pay. We are seeing more and more of this and the doctors have told us the same.
Government health care is bad but what we have is not much better.

 

[Gadawg73]

Until Americans get their heads out of the sand and know that 60% of all health care dollars in America is spent on disease care for 5% of the population, and growing each year, the current scenario will get worse.
We have the best disease care in the world. We should as we devote little or no $$ to preventive medicine and primary health care.
The kicker is 7 out of the top 8 diseases we treat with that 60% of all health care dollars ARE PREVENTABLE.
Most Americans are dumb asses. Someone else pays their health insurance premiums, they do not know how a business operates, never have run a business and the only thing they know about business or health insurance is they carry a health insurance card in their wallet.
And one wonders why health care costs for the last 20 years have outpaced inflation by 5 to 1 each and every year.

 

[Brutus]

the only thing they know about business or health insurance is they carry a health insurance card in their wallet.

true but more importantly Democrats want this so people will be dependent on government and vote for Democrats. Its naked subversion if not treason..

Saintly Republicans want capitalism and vouchers so people are shopping with their own money among competing companies. This would cut cost of health care by 60% at least. It would be a true Republican Jeffersonian miracle.

 

[Brutus]

Government health care is bad but what we have is not much better.

what we have is government health care: medicaid, medicare, VA, Schip, obsence regulation of insurance and making competition illegal.
Saintly Republicans propose capitalism and freedom.

 

[Brutus]

Brutus:
It's anti-American in that it does not rely on free enterprise. This is because the liberal mind lacks the IQ to understand free enterprise.


jgarden:
According to the 2011 CIA World Factbook, that notorious source of liberal propoganda, the life expectancy of the average Canadian (81.38 years) is 3.01 years longer than his/her American counterparts (76.37 years).

Brutus:
that is childish, and everyone ought to know it by now of course, life expectancy depends on many things other than medical care, like diet, exercise, gun violence, wars etc!!