The risks of climate disaster demand straight talking

[polarbear]

Why is the left so desperate to create a crisis within a couple of months of the election? Democrats thrive on fake crisis. The US is weakened because of the recent economic downturn and that's when radical lefties strike. Go to freaking China or Russia or Afghanistan and complain about global warming and leave the US alone for a couple of decades to recover and create alternate sources of energy instead of whining that the sky is falling.

On the other hand the more desperate they get the more ridiculous the claims. Last year`s extreme and prolonged winter was "just the weather" but a summer heat wave is "climate change".
You don`t need CO2 for a heat wave. The only thing You do need is a stationary high pressure region. If air or any other gas is heated and can expand freely it does not heat up to the same temperature as it does when the expansion is impeded by pressure. It`s the part of thermodynamics that does`nt fit into Hansen`s idiotic "climate model" but has been exploited for over a century

Not to mention the other crap...that treats a green & blue planet as a "black body" which converts UV & visible into IR and that the CO2 absorbs this IR "thermal energy" and converts that 100% into a temperature increase...and then "radiates back" to earth.

The Hansen occult consists of a following that has no idea why a green shirt only looks black in pure red light, but that does not make it a "black body" for UV, blue or at any other wavelength !!
So if anything happens due to CO2 absorption of "far red" a.k.a. "Infrared" all forested areas etc. receive less red light from the incoming sun light, which makes such areas even way less a "black body" than it would with less CO2 in the atmosphere!


The same thing goes for 7/10 of the "blue" ocean covered area and for different wavelength...the only exception to these well know laws of REAL PHYSICS is Hansen`s "Climate science"

And in addition to that,..."Thermal energy" does not translate into a higher temperature unless all the other avenues how thermal energy is transmitted are denied...such as gas expansion.
By the way when CO2 or any other gas "absorbs thermal energy" it does not absorb it as heat it only re-directs it..
In any high precision IR spectroscope the IR light beam goes through the sample and the photomultiplier detects how much is missing compared to the reference beam. So if 50% is "absorbed" all that means is that instead of reaching the detector these photons have gone off in different directions after the molecules that absorbed them re-emit them.
If You would move the detector around that gas then You would find the other 50% that have been "absorbed" from the straight IR light beam...Hansen is trying to tell You with these idiotic "Climate Models"..."Modtrans" that the absorbed %-age has been converted into a higher temperature.
Now that the last decade has proven him wrong...first he claimed that a 10 year trend which made a fool of him is not long enough...and now a 1.5 month heat wave "proves" a climate trend according to Hansen...and that during a time span when we had one class M solar flare after another one..!!!

 

[flacaltenn]

Why is the left so desperate to create a crisis within a couple of months of the election? Democrats thrive on fake crisis. The US is weakened because of the recent economic downturn and that's when radical lefties strike. Go to freaking China or Russia or Afghanistan and complain about global warming and leave the US alone for a couple of decades to recover and create alternate sources of energy instead of whining that the sky is falling.

On the other hand the more desperate they get the more ridiculous the claims. Last year`s extreme and prolonged winter was "just the weather" but a summer heat wave is "climate change".
You don`t need CO2 for a heat wave. The only thing You do need is a stationary high pressure region. If air or any other gas is heated and can expand freely it does not heat up to the same temperature as it does when the expansion is impeded by pressure. It`s the part of thermodynamics that does`nt fit into Hansen`s idiotic "climate model" but has been exploited for over a century

Not to mention the other crap...that treats a green & blue planet as a "black body" which converts UV & visible into IR and that the CO2 absorbs this IR "thermal energy" and converts that 100% into a temperature increase...and then "radiates back" to earth.

"Thermal energy" does not translate into a higher temperature unless all the other avenues how thermal energy is transmitted are denied...such as gas expansion.
By the way when CO2 or any other gas "absorbs thermal energy" it does not absorb it as heat it only re-directs it..
In any high precision IR spectroscope the IR light beam goes through the sample and the photomultiplier detects how much is missing compared to the reference beam. So if 50% is "absorbed" all that means is that instead of reaching the detector these photons have gone off in different directions after the molecules that absorbed them re-emit them.
If You would move the detector around that gas then You would find the other 50% that have been "absorbed" from the straight IR light beam...Hansen is trying to tell You with these idiotic "Climate Models"..."Modtrans" that the absorbed %-age has been converted into a higher temperature.
Now that the last decade has proven him wrong...first he claimed that a 10 year trend which made a fool of him is not long enough...and now a 1.5 month heat wave "proves" a climate trend according to Hansen...and that during a time span when we had one class M solar flare after another one..!!!

I bolded that statement up there -- because I'm working on a more complete understanding of how all this works.. Right now -- I'm looking at conflicting statements from a lot of points in the literature about Cooling of the stratosphere while the Troposphere heats to be the EXPECTED outcome of the GHouse effect.

That statement implies that the "re-radiation" from CO2 in the troposphere is electromagnetic. But the theory is that at that point -- HEAT is retained and the warming at the surface is due to THERMOdynamics not EM radiation. The excited CO2 actually does both. But it is the retained HEAT in the CO2 and surrounding molecules that largely contributes to the surface warming.

Now the interesting part -- there is THERMAL conduction from the Troposphere to the surface, but NOT from the Troposphere to the Stratosphere? The heat PREFERS to flow to the warmer surface?

Or is it that "the window" effect is starving the Strat of more EM surface reflection faster than the heat transfer from the Trop to the Strat?

Anyone?

BTW: "other avenues of thermal expansion" ARE denied by the sheer weight and density of the lower atmos layers. And SIGNIFICANT amounts of the surface generated IR are retained as heat in the lower layers..

 

[polarbear]

Why is the left so desperate to create a crisis within a couple of months of the election? Democrats thrive on fake crisis. The US is weakened because of the recent economic downturn and that's when radical lefties strike. Go to freaking China or Russia or Afghanistan and complain about global warming and leave the US alone for a couple of decades to recover and create alternate sources of energy instead of whining that the sky is falling.

On the other hand the more desperate they get the more ridiculous the claims. Last year`s extreme and prolonged winter was "just the weather" but a summer heat wave is "climate change".
You don`t need CO2 for a heat wave. The only thing You do need is a stationary high pressure region. If air or any other gas is heated and can expand freely it does not heat up to the same temperature as it does when the expansion is impeded by pressure. It`s the part of thermodynamics that does`nt fit into Hansen`s idiotic "climate model" but has been exploited for over a century

Not to mention the other crap...that treats a green & blue planet as a "black body" which converts UV & visible into IR and that the CO2 absorbs this IR "thermal energy" and converts that 100% into a temperature increase...and then "radiates back" to earth.

"Thermal energy" does not translate into a higher temperature unless all the other avenues how thermal energy is transmitted are denied...such as gas expansion.
By the way when CO2 or any other gas "absorbs thermal energy" it does not absorb it as heat it only re-directs it..
In any high precision IR spectroscope the IR light beam goes through the sample and the photomultiplier detects how much is missing compared to the reference beam. So if 50% is "absorbed" all that means is that instead of reaching the detector these photons have gone off in different directions after the molecules that absorbed them re-emit them.
If You would move the detector around that gas then You would find the other 50% that have been "absorbed" from the straight IR light beam...Hansen is trying to tell You with these idiotic "Climate Models"..."Modtrans" that the absorbed %-age has been converted into a higher temperature.
Now that the last decade has proven him wrong...first he claimed that a 10 year trend which made a fool of him is not long enough...and now a 1.5 month heat wave "proves" a climate trend according to Hansen...and that during a time span when we had one class M solar flare after another one..!!!

I bolded that statement up there -- because I'm working on a more complete understanding of how all this works.. Right now -- I'm looking at conflicting statements from a lot of points in the literature about Cooling of the stratosphere while the Troposphere heats to be the EXPECTED outcome of the GHouse effect.

That statement implies that the "re-radiation" from CO2 in the troposphere is electromagnetic. But the theory is that at that point -- HEAT is retained and the warming at the surface is due to THERMOdynamics not EM radiation. The excited CO2 actually does both. But it is the retained HEAT in the CO2 and surrounding molecules that largely contributes to the surface warming.

Now the interesting part -- there is THERMAL conduction from the Troposphere to the surface, but NOT from the Troposphere to the Stratosphere? The heat PREFERS to flow to the warmer surface?

Or is it that "the window" effect is starving the Strat of more EM surface reflection faster than the heat transfer from the Trop to the Strat?

Anyone?

BTW: "other avenues of thermal expansion" ARE denied by the sheer weight and density of the lower atmos layers. And SIGNIFICANT amounts of the surface generated IR are retained as heat in the lower layers..

The big problem is that in English the word "Heat" is amigous and does not distinguish between Heat ENERGY and "Heat" as in TEMPERATURE.
Heat energy does not result in a TEMPERATURE INCREASE equivalent to Mass * Heat ENERGY (in wattsecs) divided by the "specific heat" of a gas, especially not with a gas if You allow it to expand.

BTW: "other avenues of thermal expansion" ARE denied by the sheer weight and density of the lower atmos layers. And SIGNIFICANT amounts of the surface generated IR are retained as heat in the lower layers..

No, that is wrong...air is not DENIED to expand...it does expand, but not as much in a high pressure region as was the case during the July "heat wave"...CO2 has nothing to do with it, it`s a function of barometric pressure. Even then air does expand and never increases to the temperature if You calculate it from heat energy and the specific heat.
Standard Pressure is 760 mm Hg,....and in any region above that like in a "high pressure" region air has no problem to expand, but it does so only after it got warmer by the delta T it takes to overcome the extra pressure and then it expands and does not heat up further...that is so for any gas or gas mixture, not just air...and at pressures much higher than just over the barometric pressure range on earth...
During the phase where deltaT increases Heat ENERGY is fed into the system, and when the Gas expands heat energy is converted into "work"...the gas expands rises against gravity ( 1 m^3 air can weigh ~ 1 kg & ++!!) and can rise to altitudes exceeding 40 000 feet...that`s a lot of work..and EXPENDED ENERGY...while this M^3 of gas will fall to sub-zero temperatures as it must obeying the laws of thermodynamics.
Here is a simple experiment:
Put some water in a bottle shaped container with a "jet" opening...heat the crap out of it and observe the maximum temperature.
The larger the jet aperture the lower the internal pressure & temperature all other factors being the same...the smaller the aperture the higher the internal pressure & temperature. Even if You increase the heat "energy" but leave the pressure to remain constant the TEMPERATURE WILL NOT GO UP...!!
On a small jet even if the internal temperature is > 150 C the steam jet can be quite cold just inches away from the nozzle.

It`s elementary thermodynamics :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_constant

From the general equation P V = nRT we get,
R = PV / nT or ( pressure x volume ) / (mole x temperature)
As ‘P’ is defined as force per unit area, so we can also write the gas equation as
R = (force/area) (volume) / (mole) (temperature)
Therefore, R = [(force)/(length)2] (length)3 / (mole) (temperature)
As, force x length = work,
hence; R = (work) /( mole) (temperature)
The physical significance of R is work per degree per mol. It may be expressed in any set of units representing work or energy.

If it was`nt so all jet propulsion engineers are wasting their time + a lot of money with these "clam shells":

The experiment with the water bottle would show You pretty much the same as what You can observe with the internal temperature & pressure relationship in a jet engine at different nozzle and power settings

 

[Old Rocks]

Yap. Yap. Yap.

And in the meantime, corn crop has had major damage. Soybeans the same. Wheat crop is being affected now.

Stalled hot weather in Oregon and Washington, our turn for fires that are measured in the hundreds of square miles burned.

How many years of crop failures, firestorms, and massive flooding will it take before the fruitlioops realize that something bad is happening?

 

[westwall]

Yap. Yap. Yap.

And in the meantime, corn crop has had major damage. Soybeans the same. Wheat crop is being affected now.

Stalled hot weather in Oregon and Washington, our turn for fires that are measured in the hundreds of square miles burned.

How many years of crop failures, firestorms, and massive flooding will it take before the fruitlioops realize that something bad is happening?

Big effing deal. The grain prices havn't come even close to what they were back in the 1920's. Call me when the prices climb to 120 a bushel.

You must be a miserable SOB to live with what with your "the world is ending" crap speweing incessantly out of your mouth.

 

[Old Rocks]

Poor stupid senile Walleyes. Not in touch with reality at all. What we are seeing was predicted, although it was supposed to be a couple of decades in the future, by the very people that you constantly denigrate. The real scientists.

The mechanism for how it is occuring was explained by Professor Jennifer Francis.

 

[polarbear]

Yap. Yap. Yap.

And in the meantime, corn crop has had major damage. Soybeans the same. Wheat crop is being affected now.

Stalled hot weather in Oregon and Washington, our turn for fires that are measured in the hundreds of square miles burned.

How many years of crop failures, firestorms, and massive flooding will it take before the fruitlioops realize that something bad is happening?

Big effing deal. The grain prices havn't come even close to what they were back in the 1920's. Call me when the prices climb to 120 a bushel.

You must be a miserable SOB to live with what with your "the world is ending" crap speweing incessantly out of your mouth.

See that`s what happens if a guy gets his "information" only from MSNBC or the other left wing media. It does affect their mental health.
I tried to tell him and the other cooks that outside the U.S. where the situation is presently aggravated by Obama`s bid for re-election even the left leaning media has long since dismissed all this GW crap...but unless You read the news coming out of these countries You`ld never know...as is obvious when somebody starts a thread like this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...ic-says-climate-change-is-down-to-humans.html

About the "ex-sceptic" Richard Muller.
Meanwhile...:
Richard Muller Is A Fake, German Der Spiegel Magazine Writes

Richard Muller Is A Fake, German Der Spiegel Magazine Writes

By P Gosselin on 8. August 2012
It seems that parts of the German mainstream media are becoming more cautious with the information warmist scientists feed them.

Zapped too many times? Der Spiegel labels Muller a phony
However, looking more closely, the showstopper turned out to be a fake: Namely, with Muller, it turns out he is not in any way a former skeptic who just changed his mind. Already in 2003 he wrote in ‘Technology Review’, that his opinion was that ‘carbon dioxide as a gas emitted from fossil fuels is the biggest polluter in the history of man.’ It is likely that CO2 will ‘have severe and detrimental effects on global climate’.”
Bojanowski then brings up Muller’s BEST study and his claims that global surface temperatures have risen 1°C over the last 50 years and that if CO2 continues to rise in China unhindered, the climate could warm another 1°C in the next 20 years.

I also read "Der Spiegel" (every day and write in their forum as well) and can only concur

When influential media outlets like Spiegel start taking a second look, you can pretty much guess what’s in the pipeline for the months and years ahead. Indeed the global warming scare has its best days behind it.
In a way, this is Der Spiegel indirectly slapping down the New York Times.

But even though Der Spiegel has a left slant I still read it every day and this is why:


Der Spiegel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Der Spiegel (German pronunciation: [deːɐ ˈʃpiːɡəl], lit. "The Mirror") is a German weekly news magazine[1] published in Hamburg. It is one of Europe's largest publications of its kind, with a weekly circulation of more than one million.
Der Spiegel has a distinctive reputation for revealing political misconduct and scandals.
It is known in Germany for its distinctive, academic writing style and its large volume—a standard issue may run 200 pages or more. Typically, it has a content to advertising ratio of 2:1. As of 2010[update], Der Spiegel was employing the equivalent of 80 full-time fact checkers, which the Columbia Journalism Review called "most likely the world's largest fact checking operation".[4]

Which You can`t say for the crap that "Oldrocks" quotes

 

[Old Rocks]

bipolar

 

[polarbear]

Poor stupid senile Walleyes. Not in touch with reality at all. What we are seeing was predicted, although it was supposed to be a couple of decades in the future, by the very people that you constantly denigrate. The real scientists.

The mechanism for how it is occuring was explained by Professor Jennifer Francis.

Yes indeed it was predicted:
NASA - Top Story - NASA STUDY FINDS INCREASING SOLAR TREND THAT CAN CHANGE CLIMATE - March 20, 2003

March 20, 2003 - (date of web publication)

NASA STUDY FINDS INCREASING SOLAR TREND THAT CAN CHANGE CLIMATE


"Historical records of solar activity indicate that solar radiation has been increasing since the late 19th century. If a trend, comparable to the one found in this study, persisted throughout the 20th century, it would have provided a significant component of the global warming the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change reports to have occurred over the past 100 years," he said.
To put it into perspective, decreases in TSI of 0.2 percent occur during the weeklong passage of large sunspot groups across our side of the sun. y that mankind uses in a year. According to Willson, small variations, like the one found in this study, if sustained over many decades, could have significant climate effects.
To put it into perspective, decreases in TSI of 0.2 percent occur during the weeklong passage of large sunspot groups across our side of the sun. These changes are relatively insignificant compared to the sun's total output of energy, To put it into perspective, decreases in TSI of 0.2 percent occur during the weeklong passage of large sunspot groups across our side of the sun. These changes are relatively insignificant compared to the sun's total output of energy, yet equivalent to all the energy that mankind uses in a year. According to Willson, small variations, like the one found in this study, if sustained over many decades, could have significant climate
effects.

Quit smoking Your merchandise, it might improve your I.Q. to above 50 in the long run
Although I don`t think a weirdo like You can change habits.
I take a look into this forum once in a while, then I`m off doing what normal people do...but no matter what time I look in here You are the only person with that status no matter what the time is:
"OldRocks" is online

So when Do you actually read anything other than just the links & articles that your fellow GW cooks post here ?

 

[Old Rocks]

Der Spiegel. German for National Enquirer.

 

[polarbear]

Yap. Yap. Yap.

And in the meantime, corn crop has had major damage. Soybeans the same. Wheat crop is being affected now.

Stalled hot weather in Oregon and Washington, our turn for fires that are measured in the hundreds of square miles burned.

How many years of crop failures, firestorms, and massive flooding will it take before the fruitlioops realize that something bad is happening?

Big effing deal. The grain prices havn't come even close to what they were back in the 1920's. Call me when the prices climb to 120 a bushel.

You must be a miserable SOB to live with what with your "the world is ending" crap speweing incessantly out of your mouth.

Is`nt that typical though for these freaks. They actually gloat over a crop failure and try use it to score points for "climate change".
All it takes for a crop failure is a hot & dry spell to ruin soybeans or corn...and now a poor crop is supposed to be evidence of climate change?
On the other hand when early frost ruins the California fruit orchards then it was just the weather and not the climate

 

[Old Rocks]

For those in third world nations, figures like these have a definate negative impact. When you are already spending 60% to 70% of your available income on food, this is a disaster.

Grain Futures Update: updates, news and commentary on grain futures markets including wheat, corn, soybeans and more.

 

[polarbear]

Third year in a row with major crop losses in the world's breadbaskets due to stalled weather systems. But that is not relevant, right?

How the decline in Arctic Ice actually creates this situation.

Weather and Climate Summit - Day 5, Jennifer Francis - YouTube

3rd. year in a row, really ? That`s not what the US Ag dept. says !
Crop Production
How is a "stalled weather system" an "extreme weather".?
A large stabile air mass is anything but extreme weather!
You wanna see extreme weather? Then spend a winter on Greenland or Ellesmere Island:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOwvR-Zuev4]Windstorm in Alert 2 - YouTube[/ame]


But idiots like you prefer to "get it" spoon fed from "Jennifer Francis" on YouTube who`s never been there, let alone spent a winter up there.

 

[Old Rocks]

Oh brother. 2010, Russia, Australia and Pakistan lose significant crops. 2011, floods from March through September ruin peanut crop in US, Thailand record floods affect crops and infrastructure. The USA, Canada, and Germany may be the whole world for you, most of us realize otherwise.

 

[Old Rocks]

How is a stalled system and extreme weather event? Ask the people in the Midwest. Professor Francis does not have to go the Greenland or anywhere else to study the weather. We do have satellite data, as well as numerous ground station, and weather balloons for studying the weather patterns.

Of course you are not going to watch her lecture, science is something you despise.

 

[polarbear]

For those in third world nations, figures like these have a definate negative impact. When you are already spending 60% to 70% of your available income on food, this is a disaster.

Grain Futures Update: updates, news and commentary on grain futures markets including wheat, corn, soybeans and more.

Yes it is a disaster, but ask who is at fault...the CO2 or this "green energy" fiasco ?
E10: Entwicklungsminister Niebel fordert Verkaufstopp von Biosprit - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Lebensmittelpreis: Niebel fordert Verkaufsstopp von Biosprit E10

Die Preise für Getreide steigen weltweit, die Uno warnt vor einer Lebensmittelkrise. Für Entwicklungsminister Niebel ist klar: Am drohenden globalen Hunger ist auch die Produktion von Biosprit schuld. Der FDP-Politiker fordert das sofortige Aus für den Verkauf von E10 in Deutschland.
"Das ist ein Konflikt zwischen Tank und Teller", sagte der FDP-Politiker am Mittwoch dem Fernsehsender n-tv. "Gerade bei steigenden Lebensmittelpreisen kann Biosprit zu stärkerem Hunger in der Welt beitragen". Die von der früheren rot-grünen Bundesregierung durchgesetzte Beimischungspflicht führe letztendlich dazu, dass Menschen zu wenig Nahrung hätten. Zudem sei E10 in Deutschland ohnehin nie akzeptiert worden, so Niebel.

You told me once that your (jewish?) parents did not allow anything remotely connected to Germany in your isolated little world...
So I`ll spell it out for you:
The U.N. put the blame squarely on bio-fuels and not on "3 crop failures in a row" like You claim...So who`s hair-brained idea was E-10 and "bio diesel"...?
The evil "oil lobby"...?
Anyway Germany will halt the production of "bio-fuels" and go back to regular gasoline & diesel, so that there is no conflict between "Tank and Teller" as they put it...You might guess what "Tank" is in English and "Teller" is a dinner plate.
On the banner, can you guess what the German word "Hunger" is? and "macht"? macht =makes,....so can you figure it out now? "bio-sprit macht Hunger"..!!!!

 

[westwall]

Poor stupid senile Walleyes. Not in touch with reality at all. What we are seeing was predicted, although it was supposed to be a couple of decades in the future, by the very people that you constantly denigrate. The real scientists.

The mechanism for how it is occuring was explained by Professor Jennifer Francis.

When you predict EVERYTHING you are guaranteed a win.... now aren't you.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, that is not what I said at all. I said my great-great grandfather would not allow German spoken in the home after arriving in America. They were here, in an English speaking country, and planned on being Americans. So why should they be speaking German and isolating themselves from the rest of America?

 

[westwall]

Yap. Yap. Yap.

And in the meantime, corn crop has had major damage. Soybeans the same. Wheat crop is being affected now.

Stalled hot weather in Oregon and Washington, our turn for fires that are measured in the hundreds of square miles burned.

How many years of crop failures, firestorms, and massive flooding will it take before the fruitlioops realize that something bad is happening?

Big effing deal. The grain prices havn't come even close to what they were back in the 1920's. Call me when the prices climb to 120 a bushel.

You must be a miserable SOB to live with what with your "the world is ending" crap speweing incessantly out of your mouth.

Is`nt that typical though for these freaks. They actually gloat over a crop failure and try use it to score points for "climate change".
All it takes for a crop failure is a hot & dry spell to ruin soybeans or corn...and now a poor crop is supposed to be evidence of climate change?
On the other hand when early frost ruins the California fruit orchards then it was just the weather and not the climate

Yep, I do find it amusing that supposedly thinking people can so seperate reality from their everyday lives. I too read Der Spiegel and am happy to see them actually CHECKING the BS they are fed. Unlike the US based MSM.

 

[Bigfoot]

No, that is not what I said at all. I said my great-great grandfather would not allow German spoken in the home after arriving in America. They were here, in an English speaking country, and planned on being Americans. So why should they be speaking German and isolating themselves from the rest of America?

It would sure be nice if you isolated yourself from the rest of America. There would be a lot less dung flung around here.