The Right Flames the Volt

[westwall]

....

Think you still need that meeting...

only if I believe about a third of what you posted. I don't. Meeting adjourned.

The problem, of course, is we don't believe much of what you say either.

 

[martinjlm]

When Reagan bailed out Chrysler, he had the military use the dodge truck in the army. It was a piece of junk, just like the 70's models the starter magneto would never catch until you tried to start it for several minutes.

And that applies to a discussion on the Chevrolet Volt because..............

 

[martinjlm]

....

Think you still need that meeting...

only if I believe about a third of what you posted. I don't. Meeting adjourned.

The problem, of course, is we don't believe much of what you say either.

I'm crushed.......but the facts do tend to stand on their own

 

[flacaltenn]

only if I believe about a third of what you posted. I don't. Meeting adjourned.

The problem, of course, is we don't believe much of what you say either.

I'm crushed.......but the facts do tend to stand on their own

Look jlm -- If it was such a great investment, we have adequate energy to support it on the grid, and there WAS no MIXED MESSAGE about restricting build-out of additional electricity and the grid ----

Why don't we cut the subsidies and just GIVE the Post Office an all-electric EV fleet??

Start with California because they've already got wildly screwed up mandates for meeting EV deployments. And their lights are barely on anymore anyway...

 

[martinjlm]

The problem, of course, is we don't believe much of what you say either.

I'm crushed.......but the facts do tend to stand on their own

Look jlm -- If it was such a great investment, we have adequate energy to support it on the grid, and there WAS no MIXED MESSAGE about restricting build-out of additional electricity and the grid ----

Why don't we cut the subsidies and just GIVE the Post Office an all-electric EV fleet??

Start with California because they've already got wildly screwed up mandates for meeting EV deployments. And their lights are barely on anymore anyway...

Now THAT my friend, is a very good question. The issues that I have witnessed wrt adding to the grid is not a question of if ( I think the answer there has been "yes, do add") but HOW to do so in a manner that will be ecologically neutral or ecologically friendly. I see lots of discussion about adding hydro, wind power, nuclear and other replenishable methods of power generation at the same time that I see discussion about taking coal based power generation offline.

I do not know all the incremental details around this, as the power industry is not one that interests me. The automotive industry, however, interests me greatly and allows me to be able to pay DTE Energy for what I take out of the grid.

As for the subsidies.....they are not specific to specific products. The point of the subsidies is to energize the car buying public to consider electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. It's sort of a chicken and egg thing.

• The development of clean energy cars will not continue unless people buy enough cars to give car companies incentive to build them.
• People won't buy clean energy cars until there is infrastructure to charge them and the prices come down
• Infrastructure providers won't build infrastructure until they know people will buy cars to use the infrastructure
• Prices won't come down unless automakers have some reason to believe they can produce and market clean energy vehicles without taking a cash bath, so we're back to the beginning of the circular argument.

What the federal government is doing to jump start the process is to say " here Mr. And Ms. Consumer, is a short term opportunity to use some of the federal tax-money you've paid over the years to get out in front of the curve and buy a technologically advanced vehicle". Now, contrary to what a lot of people on this site may believe......

• There is a sunset on this incentive
• GM and the Chevrolet Volt are NOT the only vehicles eligible for this incentive, just the most popular so far. The Ford Focus Electric, The Tesla S, and several products made by Japanese automakers are all eligible for all or part of the incentive, depending on motor power and battery size.
• How long the incentive window lasts is directly tied to how many vehicles a company has sold that are eligible for the incentive, then that company can no longer extend the incentive to customers.

The point is to get people to buy enough electrically powered vehicles to provide automakers the incentive to continue development and to provide incentive for power companies and equipment providers like Coulomb Technologies (makes charging stations) to spend the time, money and resources on development of products that will allow renewable energy sourced vehicles a chance to grow in the marketplace.

One other tidbit. The Chinese government is heavily subsidizing the development of electric vehicles, batteries, and electric motors. Several European companies are subsidizing the development of renewable energy powered vehicles, including battery electrics and fuel cells. A growing number of large European cities are setting up zero emissions zones where only vehicles capable of running on electric only are allowed to enter. If US based automakers are not in a mode to develop hybrids, electric vehicles, and fuel cells, the US auto industry will go the way of the US steel industry, the US television industry, and the dodo bird and companies subsidized by other governments will control the US market.

 

[martinjlm]

flacaltenn,

Just an additional note.....providing EVs to the Post Office only is a short term approach to a long term issue. FWIW, all US companies have in one way or another worked with the Post Office, The Department of Energy, various branches of the military and many state governments on short term testing of advanced vehicle product.

Where we are now is well beyond that. It is now a question of do we, the US, want to be out front in the development of electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles, or do we want to just chillax and wait for the German, Japanese, and Korean automakers to do that and put hundreds of thousands of American workers out of work?

Between now and 2020, we'll probably only see the combination of hybrids and electrics make up about 10-15% of vehicles sold, but they will be a very important 10-15% because NO automaker, domestic, European, or Asian, will be capable of meeting the fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations currently in force and under consideration for the US, Europe, China, or Korea without some volume of electrics and/or hybrids. I see the product forecasts of a lot of major automakers and I see a LOT of hybrid and electric models on the way to prepare for those tough targets. Providing vehicles just for California or just for the post office won't balance the equation. Although these days, most hybrids and electrics START sales in California, they eventually expand outward.

 

[flacaltenn]

Great posts jlm.. Finally -- someone who wants to ponder the hard stuff.

See -- there are some "meetings" and discussions that need to be had.

Got to get back to ya later..

 

[westwall]

flacaltenn,

Just an additional note.....providing EVs to the Post Office only is a short term approach to a long term issue. FWIW, all US companies have in one way or another worked with the Post Office, The Department of Energy, various branches of the military and many state governments on short term testing of advanced vehicle product.

Where we are now is well beyond that. It is now a question of do we, the US, want to be out front in the development of electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles, or do we want to just chillax and wait for the German, Japanese, and Korean automakers to do that and put hundreds of thousands of American workers out of work?

Between now and 2020, we'll probably only see the combination of hybrids and electrics make up about 10-15% of vehicles sold, but they will be a very important 10-15% because NO automaker, domestic, European, or Asian, will be capable of meeting the fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations currently in force and under consideration for the US, Europe, China, or Korea without some volume of electrics and/or hybrids. I see the product forecasts of a lot of major automakers and I see a LOT of hybrid and electric models on the way to prepare for those tough targets. Providing vehicles just for California or just for the post office won't balance the equation. Although these days, most hybrids and electrics START sales in California, they eventually expand outward.

To be quite honest with you I am content to let the other countries spend their money on the research and the perfection of the technology. Then we can reverse engineer it like they have allways done to us.

I would prefer if our research monies were spent on something truly revolutionary, like fusion or a global electrical sytem such as Tesla envisioned. Personally, I believe EV's to be a technological dead end. Tesla's system (if it could be developed) would make EVs a viable option because you would no longer need a battery and all of its attendant weight.

But, absent that, there are other technologies that are more promising in the long run.

 

[martinjlm]

flacaltenn,

Just an additional note.....providing EVs to the Post Office only is a short term approach to a long term issue. FWIW, all US companies have in one way or another worked with the Post Office, The Department of Energy, various branches of the military and many state governments on short term testing of advanced vehicle product.

Where we are now is well beyond that. It is now a question of do we, the US, want to be out front in the development of electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles, or do we want to just chillax and wait for the German, Japanese, and Korean automakers to do that and put hundreds of thousands of American workers out of work?

Between now and 2020, we'll probably only see the combination of hybrids and electrics make up about 10-15% of vehicles sold, but they will be a very important 10-15% because NO automaker, domestic, European, or Asian, will be capable of meeting the fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations currently in force and under consideration for the US, Europe, China, or Korea without some volume of electrics and/or hybrids. I see the product forecasts of a lot of major automakers and I see a LOT of hybrid and electric models on the way to prepare for those tough targets. Providing vehicles just for California or just for the post office won't balance the equation. Although these days, most hybrids and electrics START sales in California, they eventually expand outward.

To be quite honest with you I am content to let the other countries spend their money on the research and the perfection of the technology. Then we can reverse engineer it like they have allways done to us.

Not a good plan. Look how well that worked on hybrids. Even though technical experts will state that the GM Hybrid system used on Escalades and Tahoes is technologically superior to Toyota's Prius system, what is the visual you see when someone says "hybrid"? And as far as reverse engineering, unless you are in China, there are patent laws that prevent that sorta thing, UNLESS you are willing to add extra cost and inefficiencies in a design to avoid tripping over others' patents.

I would prefer if our research monies were spent on something truly revolutionary, like fusion or a global electrical sytem such as Tesla envisioned. Personally, I believe EV's to be a technological dead end. Tesla's system (if it could be developed) would make EVs a viable option because you would no longer need a battery and all of its attendant weight.

But, absent that, there are other technologies that are more promising in the long run.

Please name them. Fair warning......automotive technology is my profession. My BS meter is finely tuned. While you're at it, can you please point me to any information or company statement where Tesla, an electric car and battery manufacturer plans to make an electric car with no batteries?

 

[flacaltenn]

He's not talking about Tesla the car company.. He's talking about Tesla the sparky guy that the company was named after.. It's a long story.. WestWall will no doubt fill ya in (and bury you?) LOL...

 

[martinjlm]

He's not talking about Tesla the car company.. He's talking about Tesla the sparky guy that the company was named after.. It's a long story.. WestWall will no doubt fill ya in (and bury you?) LOL...

Ahhhh, well then....glad I specified Tesla the car and battery company,
or this coulda gotten REALLY embarrassing.

 

[flacaltenn]

He's not talking about Tesla the car company.. He's talking about Tesla the sparky guy that the company was named after.. It's a long story.. WestWall will no doubt fill ya in (and bury you?) LOL...

Ahhhh, well then....glad I specified Tesla the car and battery company,
or this coulda gotten REALLY embarrassing.

It's part of my newbie outreach program. Trying to save them from getting crushed before they learn to cross the street..

 

[polarbear]

Which is it ECO-NAUTS???

Are we so short of electricity that we have to pull chargers out of the wall and replace all our lightbulbs to CONSERVE ---

OR

We have SOOO MUCH electricity that we should ENCOURAGE folks to be adding 2.5KW circuits to their house and charging their cars for 6 or 8 hours a day..

Who's confused here? Which are we wasting --- The $MILLs on the Conservation Campaign --- or the SUBSIDIES for EVs?

You folks need a meeting to resolve this mixed message...

You won`t have to add any "2.5KW" circuits every house has these. Your hot water tank is on a 20 amp/220 V breaker = 4.4 KW (V* Amps), so is Your clothes drier and Your cook stove is on a 40 amp breaker = almost 9KW. Most houses have a 200 amp main breaker and cottages have a 100 amp. The problem with Lithium batteries is the slow charging time. If You up the "current density" =amps/cm^2 plate surface then You destroy the battery. Lithium is as good as it gets because it is has the highest emf of all elements known to man. Doesn`t matter how much more money "climate scientists" say we should invest, this is as good as it can get.

Ford Focus turbo diesel 67 mpg and seats four comfortably.

Hey, if I could buy one of those at my local Ford dealership I would. But they don't have any, so I'll stick with something else for now. I think it is a crime that we can't get those European turbo-diesels though, VW is the only game in town right now, and they just don't cut the quality mustard.

In 1960 my dad bought a Mercedes 180 for my brother`s 18th birthday,

pre-payed in cash and told him to take the train to Stuttgart to pick it up at the factory. Fritz got there and found out only then that it was a 180 D. He was so pissed off and floored it in first gear for about 50 klicks trying to destroy the engine because he wanted a Mercedes SE not the D. After 50 klicks he got bored and kept it on the floor in top gear, then rolled it on the exit ramp. The only real damage done was that the outside mirrors got ripped off. My friend Karl who has a farm in Landsberg bought that 180D from my brother after that for next to nothing and still drives it today using furnace oil for fuel.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Right Flames the Volt
By JOE NOCERA
Published: April 6, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/o...mes-the-volt.html?_r=3&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss



It was Thursday morning and several dozen owners of the new Chevrolet Volt had gathered at a restaurant overlooking the East River. Across town, the New York International Auto Show was in full swing. The Volt, of course, is the innovative electric car from General Motors, and G.M. was using the occasion of the auto show to meet with Volt owners.

Between bites of eggs and bacon, the Volt owners gushed about how well the car drove — and how much gasoline they were saving. They were early adopters, of course, willing to pay a high price ($40,000 before a $7,500 tax credit) to get their hands on a new technology. Many of them had become nearly obsessed with avoiding the gas station; for those with short commutes, it could be months between fill-ups.

What is the connection between President Obama and the Volt? There is none. The car was the brainchild of Bob Lutz, a legendary auto executive who is about as liberal as the Koch brothers. The tax credit — which is part of the reason conservatives hate the car — became law during the Bush administration.

“It’s nuts,” said Lutz, when I spoke to him earlier in the week. “This is a significant achievement in the auto industry. There are so many legitimate things to criticize Obama about. It is inexplicable that the right would feel the need to tell lies about the Volt to attack the president.”

“It’s nuts,”

that's what the GOP has become today

 

[westwall]

flacaltenn,

Just an additional note.....providing EVs to the Post Office only is a short term approach to a long term issue. FWIW, all US companies have in one way or another worked with the Post Office, The Department of Energy, various branches of the military and many state governments on short term testing of advanced vehicle product.

Where we are now is well beyond that. It is now a question of do we, the US, want to be out front in the development of electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles, or do we want to just chillax and wait for the German, Japanese, and Korean automakers to do that and put hundreds of thousands of American workers out of work?

Between now and 2020, we'll probably only see the combination of hybrids and electrics make up about 10-15% of vehicles sold, but they will be a very important 10-15% because NO automaker, domestic, European, or Asian, will be capable of meeting the fuel economy and greenhouse gas regulations currently in force and under consideration for the US, Europe, China, or Korea without some volume of electrics and/or hybrids. I see the product forecasts of a lot of major automakers and I see a LOT of hybrid and electric models on the way to prepare for those tough targets. Providing vehicles just for California or just for the post office won't balance the equation. Although these days, most hybrids and electrics START sales in California, they eventually expand outward.

To be quite honest with you I am content to let the other countries spend their money on the research and the perfection of the technology. Then we can reverse engineer it like they have allways done to us.

Not a good plan. Look how well that worked on hybrids. Even though technical experts will state that the GM Hybrid system used on Escalades and Tahoes is technologically superior to Toyota's Prius system, what is the visual you see when someone says "hybrid"? And as far as reverse engineering, unless you are in China, there are patent laws that prevent that sorta thing, UNLESS you are willing to add extra cost and inefficiencies in a design to avoid tripping over others' patents.

I would prefer if our research monies were spent on something truly revolutionary, like fusion or a global electrical sytem such as Tesla envisioned. Personally, I believe EV's to be a technological dead end. Tesla's system (if it could be developed) would make EVs a viable option because you would no longer need a battery and all of its attendant weight.

But, absent that, there are other technologies that are more promising in the long run.

Please name them. Fair warning......automotive technology is my profession. My BS meter is finely tuned. While you're at it, can you please point me to any information or company statement where Tesla, an electric car and battery manufacturer plans to make an electric car with no batteries?

You tell me the benefit of spending billions of dollars to have China reverse engineer a technology and then produce it for one 20th of what it would cost us thereby denying the inventor the ability to recoup their investment. Not smart at all.

New technologies that are better would be fuel cell and hydrogen fuel.

Nicola Tesla (the inventor of alternating current and the designer of our modern electrical systems, he also invented radio controlled vehicles in the late 1890's, in other words a true genius) envisioned a electtrical system where energy was pumped into the Earths magnetic field and all a consumer would need to do is have an antenna that allowed them to get the electricity they needed. That's the whole purpose of the Tesla coil. Imagine a gridless world where whatever energy you needed was readily available without wires of any sort.

 

[martinjlm]

To be quite honest with you I am content to let the other countries spend their money on the research and the perfection of the technology. Then we can reverse engineer it like they have allways done to us.

Not a good plan. Look how well that worked on hybrids. Even though technical experts will state that the GM Hybrid system used on Escalades and Tahoes is technologically superior to Toyota's Prius system, what is the visual you see when someone says "hybrid"? And as far as reverse engineering, unless you are in China, there are patent laws that prevent that sorta thing, UNLESS you are willing to add extra cost and inefficiencies in a design to avoid tripping over others' patents.

I would prefer if our research monies were spent on something truly revolutionary, like fusion or a global electrical sytem such as Tesla envisioned. Personally, I believe EV's to be a technological dead end. Tesla's system (if it could be developed) would make EVs a viable option because you would no longer need a battery and all of its attendant weight.

But, absent that, there are other technologies that are more promising in the long run.

Please name them. Fair warning......automotive technology is my profession. My BS meter is finely tuned. While you're at it, can you please point me to any information or company statement where Tesla, an electric car and battery manufacturer plans to make an electric car with no batteries?

You tell me the benefit of spending billions of dollars to have China reverse engineer a technology and then produce it for one 20th of what it would cost us thereby denying the inventor the ability to recoup their investment. Not smart at all.

I think you are misunderstanding my point about China. I am not suggesting that companies should use China to reverse engineer product, then produce and sell it at reduced price. I am saying that it is commonplace in China for Chinese companies to reverse engineer, or even worse, steal intellectual property of US, European, and Japanese companies that do business there. They pretty much get a wink and a nod from Chinese political and legal entities. Sometimes they are forced to apologize, but they are rarely if ever forced to stop or to compensate. China often requires that companies wishing to do business in China manufacture in China and in some cases forces sharing of intellectual property with local Chinese companies. Here's an example of Chinese reverse engineering.......

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/23/cadillac-escalade-ext-gets-the-bad-chinese-knock-off-treatment/

New technologies that are better would be fuel cell and hydrogen fuel.

A lot of car companies are and have been for some time working on developing fuel cell vehicles. They simply aren't ready for prime time yet and probably won't be for some time. I've test driven fuel cell vehicles myself and can see that from a functional standpoint, they are viable. From a bringing to market standpoint, there's a lot still to be done. As for hydrogen fuel (conversion of internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen fuel) BMW has run that play and is now backing off of it in favor of continued development of fuel cell technology. You can probably pick up a BMW Hydrogen7 for pretty cheap these days.

GM, Honda, and Toyota all have restricted fleets of fuel cell vehicles running around. The GM program, about 100+ fuel cell equipped Chevrolet Equinox vehicles, has been putting fuel cell vehicles in the hands of carefully selected private citizens for years. Those selected get to use the vehicle for several months, then they give them back and they're moved on to the next person. Honda's program, featuring the Honda Clarity sedan, has offered the Clarity to lessees in So. Cal. for several years. Honda planned for up to 300 units in commerce. So far, somewhere less than 50 people have opted in.

Three things (that I am aware of) are holding back fuel cell applications.....

1. Reducing the size of the fuel stack to a reasonable size while maintaining a useable vehicle travel range
2. Having hydrogen refilling infrastructure available so vehicle isn't limited to a 1/2 tank radius of travel
3. Cost. Same chicken and egg scenario I described for hybrids and electrics. E cost for the system needs to come down from the 10s of 1,000s to the 1,000s.

Sounds eerily familiar to where battery electric vehicles were several years ago and where hybrids were before that. Toyota has stated that they will have a widely available fuel cell vehicle available for around $50K by 2015. I"ll be watching to see how they manage the infrastructure issue.

Nicola Tesla (the inventor of alternating current and the designer of our modern electrical systems, he also invented radio controlled vehicles in the late 1890's, in other words a true genius) envisioned a electtrical system where energy was pumped into the Earths magnetic field and all a consumer would need to do is have an antenna that allowed them to get the electricity they needed. That's the whole purpose of the Tesla coil. Imagine a gridless world where whatever energy you needed was readily available without wires of any sort.

Yeah, I know who Nicola Tesla was. I mistook your early statement as referring to Tesla the company, not Tesla the man, and I responded accordingly.

I would think that the type of revolutionary change in energy delivery you describe is beyond the perview of the auto industry and better managed by energy providers.

 

[Katzndogz]

If you think the Volt was a too expensive boondoggle, wait until you see what Volt Village is going to cost.

2012 Chevrolet Volt Becomes Centerpiece of Smart Community

 

[midcan5]

Only the right wing is so controlled by big money that they shoot their own when given the orders by the Kochs etc. The Japanese support each other, Americans point fingers pulled by their puppet masters. Money where mouth is: We own two Buicks both made here. And Toyota had some wonderful problems but the right missed them in their hatred of American made.

"In corporate culture, keiretsu refers to a uniquely Japanese form of corporate organization. A keiretsu is a grouping or family of affiliated companies that form a tight-knit alliance to work toward each other's mutual success. The keiretsu system is also based on an intimate partnership between government and businesses. It can best be understood as the intricate web of relationships that links banks, manufacturers, suppliers, and distributors with the Japanese government.¶ These ironclad corporate alliances have caused much debate and have been called "government-sponsored cartels." While some think keiretsu are a menace to trade, others see them as a model for change. Features common to most keiretsu include "main bank," stable shareholding, and seconded directors. Some keiretsu concepts have no American parallel such as "general trading company." The keiretsu system is one of the profound differences between Japanese and US business structures." What is keiretsu? - Definition from WhatIs.com

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

 

[westwall]

Not a good plan. Look how well that worked on hybrids. Even though technical experts will state that the GM Hybrid system used on Escalades and Tahoes is technologically superior to Toyota's Prius system, what is the visual you see when someone says "hybrid"? And as far as reverse engineering, unless you are in China, there are patent laws that prevent that sorta thing, UNLESS you are willing to add extra cost and inefficiencies in a design to avoid tripping over others' patents.



Please name them. Fair warning......automotive technology is my profession. My BS meter is finely tuned. While you're at it, can you please point me to any information or company statement where Tesla, an electric car and battery manufacturer plans to make an electric car with no batteries?

You tell me the benefit of spending billions of dollars to have China reverse engineer a technology and then produce it for one 20th of what it would cost us thereby denying the inventor the ability to recoup their investment. Not smart at all.

I think you are misunderstanding my point about China. I am not suggesting that companies should use China to reverse engineer product, then produce and sell it at reduced price. I am saying that it is commonplace in China for Chinese companies to reverse engineer, or even worse, steal intellectual property of US, European, and Japanese companies that do business there. They pretty much get a wink and a nod from Chinese political and legal entities. Sometimes they are forced to apologize, but they are rarely if ever forced to stop or to compensate. China often requires that companies wishing to do business in China manufacture in China and in some cases forces sharing of intellectual property with local Chinese companies. Here's an example of Chinese reverse engineering.......

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/23/cadillac-escalade-ext-gets-the-bad-chinese-knock-off-treatment/

New technologies that are better would be fuel cell and hydrogen fuel.

A lot of car companies are and have been for some time working on developing fuel cell vehicles. They simply aren't ready for prime time yet and probably won't be for some time. I've test driven fuel cell vehicles myself and can see that from a functional standpoint, they are viable. From a bringing to market standpoint, there's a lot still to be done. As for hydrogen fuel (conversion of internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen fuel) BMW has run that play and is now backing off of it in favor of continued development of fuel cell technology. You can probably pick up a BMW Hydrogen7 for pretty cheap these days.

GM, Honda, and Toyota all have restricted fleets of fuel cell vehicles running around. The GM program, about 100+ fuel cell equipped Chevrolet Equinox vehicles, has been putting fuel cell vehicles in the hands of carefully selected private citizens for years. Those selected get to use the vehicle for several months, then they give them back and they're moved on to the next person. Honda's program, featuring the Honda Clarity sedan, has offered the Clarity to lessees in So. Cal. for several years. Honda planned for up to 300 units in commerce. So far, somewhere less than 50 people have opted in.

Three things (that I am aware of) are holding back fuel cell applications.....

1. Reducing the size of the fuel stack to a reasonable size while maintaining a useable vehicle travel range
2. Having hydrogen refilling infrastructure available so vehicle isn't limited to a 1/2 tank radius of travel
3. Cost. Same chicken and egg scenario I described for hybrids and electrics. E cost for the system needs to come down from the 10s of 1,000s to the 1,000s.

Sounds eerily familiar to where battery electric vehicles were several years ago and where hybrids were before that. Toyota has stated that they will have a widely available fuel cell vehicle available for around $50K by 2015. I"ll be watching to see how they manage the infrastructure issue.

Nicola Tesla (the inventor of alternating current and the designer of our modern electrical systems, he also invented radio controlled vehicles in the late 1890's, in other words a true genius) envisioned a electtrical system where energy was pumped into the Earths magnetic field and all a consumer would need to do is have an antenna that allowed them to get the electricity they needed. That's the whole purpose of the Tesla coil. Imagine a gridless world where whatever energy you needed was readily available without wires of any sort.

Yeah, I know who Nicola Tesla was. I mistook your early statement as referring to Tesla the company, not Tesla the man, and I responded accordingly.

I would think that the type of revolutionary change in energy delivery you describe is beyond the perview of the auto industry and better managed by energy providers.

That was my point in the first place. You guys all say we should invest all of this money in a technology that really isn't all that great when one looks at it critically. Then, after we have spent all this money developing the tech the Chinese steal and undercut our inventors. I say screw that. LET THEM take the lead for once. Let them spend THEIR money on the tech, then, for once, we steal it from them.

All you guys are doing is making it easier for the Chinese to bury us. None of your programs will ever work. The Chinese can undercut our manufacturers to a ridiculous degree so that the only way a company can survive is by taxpayer largesse.

That's stupid and irresponsible. Ignore the solar and go for something truly revolutionary and let them squander their resources on it.

Do you get it.

In regard to your comment about the infrastructure setups, yes they are similar and yet they are not. The need to run vast numbers of 3 phase power lines is a truly crippling prospect. However, exhisting gas stations can be equipped to provide hydrogen. But, that's not the problem with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is it currently costs more to seperate it out to it's elemental level than the amount of energy it returns when used in a conventional manner. Putting in a hydrogen fuel tank at a gas station is relatively straightforward. Its producing the hydrogen in a efficient manner that's the issue.

Fuel cells are indeed having problems making them useful for the civilian market but if the money that was being pissed away on solar were diverted to them, what would you like to bet we would have a very nice alternative in a very short time.

 

[westwall]

Only the right wing is so controlled by big money that they shoot their own when given the orders by the Kochs etc. The Japanese support each other, Americans point fingers pulled by their puppet masters. Money where mouth is: We own two Buicks both made here. And Toyota had some wonderful problems but the right missed them in their hatred of American made.

"In corporate culture, keiretsu refers to a uniquely Japanese form of corporate organization. A keiretsu is a grouping or family of affiliated companies that form a tight-knit alliance to work toward each other's mutual success. The keiretsu system is also based on an intimate partnership between government and businesses. It can best be understood as the intricate web of relationships that links banks, manufacturers, suppliers, and distributors with the Japanese government.¶ These ironclad corporate alliances have caused much debate and have been called "government-sponsored cartels." While some think keiretsu are a menace to trade, others see them as a model for change. Features common to most keiretsu include "main bank," stable shareholding, and seconded directors. Some keiretsu concepts have no American parallel such as "general trading company." The keiretsu system is one of the profound differences between Japanese and US business structures." What is keiretsu? - Definition from WhatIs.com

Buy American = "Because Ford, GM and Chrysler conduct far more of their research, design, engineering, manufacturing and assembly work in the U.S. than foreign automakers do, buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler supports almost three times as many jobs as buying the average foreign automobile. Some comparisons are even more striking. Buying a Ford supports 3.5 times more jobs than buying a Hyundai. Comparing a Honda and a Hyundai? Buying a Honda supports more than 2 times more jobs." The Level Field Institute

Yes in the hive mind culture of the Japanese you are expected to die for your Emperor. We know...that's why the Japanese had their ass handed to them in the last great war.

The US on the other hand values the life of the individual so we invested on ways to save our people. The Japanese civilians were expected to commit suicide when they lost Saipan.

Nice model you choose there Midcan. Guess what, Japanese business culture is the same way. In other words you live yuor life for the company. If you don't produce you're out on your ass. You might want to read up a little on Japanese culture someday instead of watching "Rising Sun" and using that as your example.

Sean Connery was cute in the role as was Mr. Snipes, but it's a little short of fact.