The Quran is the anti-Constitution

[Treeshepherd]

Jesus said give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's. That right there is the establishment of the separation between Church and State. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus rejects worldly power. He confounded his followers by not becoming a Maccabean-style military liberator. John the Baptist was in jail awaiting a beheading and asked the visiting Jesus, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" Even he didn't get it.

The Bible doesn't tell you how to govern, and it was written for people with zero political power. The Qur'an, on the other hand, was written with governance in mind, and it was applied in the first instance by people who ran a state. The Quran argues that government should be run in accordance with traditional Islamic law (sharia), and for this to happen a leading Islamic jurist (faqih) must provide political "guardianship" (wilayat or velayat) over the people and nation. - wikipedia

 

[Treeshepherd]

Separation of Mosque & State in Islam

The linked article provides a simplistic explanation;

"Muhammad's model community was a true theocracy, a form of government in which the divine rules the law. Muhammad had duties as a prophet and as a head of state, but he went to the same source — to God — to deal with both. Surah 5, verse 92 of the Quran tells the people to obey both God and The Messenger. Because Muhammad was a head of state with a divine decree, this made a separation between mosque and state both impossible and undesirable."

In the Bible we have the example of the Babylon system (worldly power) as opposed to the Kingdom of God. The two are ever at odds. The Kings of the Old Testament are typically portrayed as imperfect. In the NT we have the illustration of Satan's power over all governments. "Paul renounced the whole worldly system. It no longer had any appeal to him; he was, in effect, dead in relation to it. However, the world's pressure never ends, which Paul notes in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world." The Greek more correctly reads, "Stop allowing yourself to be fashioned to the pattern of this age," or as the J.B. Phillips translation puts it, "Don't let the world around you squeeze you into its own mold.""

There are, of course, conflicting passages in the Bible. But the general theme stokes a distrust of government. Islam, on the other hand, is often described as a Total Way of Life; "[The Quran] provided guidance in every sphere of life, from individual cleanliness, rules of trade, to the structure and politics of the society. Islam can never be separated from social, political, or economic life, since religion provides moral guidance for every action that a person takes. The primary act of faith is to strive to implement God's will in both private and public life. Muslims see that they, themselves, as well as the world around them, must be in total submission to God and his Will. Moreover, they know that this concept of His rule must be established on earth in order to create a just society." The Basics of the Political System in Islam (part 1 of 2): Islam a Total Way of Life - The Religion of Islam

 

[daws101]

Separation of Mosque & State in Islam

The linked article provides a simplistic explanation;

"Muhammad's model community was a true theocracy, a form of government in which the divine rules the law. Muhammad had duties as a prophet and as a head of state, but he went to the same source — to God — to deal with both. Surah 5, verse 92 of the Quran tells the people to obey both God and The Messenger. Because Muhammad was a head of state with a divine decree, this made a separation between mosque and state both impossible and undesirable."

In the Bible we have the example of the Babylon system (worldly power) as opposed to the Kingdom of God. The two are ever at odds. The Kings of the Old Testament are typically portrayed as imperfect. In the NT we have the illustration of Satan's power over all governments. "Paul renounced the whole worldly system. It no longer had any appeal to him; he was, in effect, dead in relation to it. However, the world's pressure never ends, which Paul notes in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world." The Greek more correctly reads, "Stop allowing yourself to be fashioned to the pattern of this age," or as the J.B. Phillips translation puts it, "Don't let the world around you squeeze you into its own mold.""

There are, of course, conflicting passages in the Bible. But the general theme stokes a distrust of government. Islam, on the other hand, is often described as a Total Way of Life; "[The Quran] provided guidance in every sphere of life, from individual cleanliness, rules of trade, to the structure and politics of the society. Islam can never be separated from social, political, or economic life, since religion provides moral guidance for every action that a person takes. The primary act of faith is to strive to implement God's will in both private and public life. Muslims see that they, themselves, as well as the world around them, must be in total submission to God and his Will. Moreover, they know that this concept of His rule must be established on earth in order to create a just society." The Basics of the Political System in Islam (part 1 of 2): Islam a Total Way of Life - The Religion of Islam

Wall of text.

 

[jillian]

The Constitution (including The Bill Of Rights) was made for a freedom loving people tolerant of different beliefs. The Quran was made to oppress the world. The media and most politicians are not acknowledging this reality. But the truth is plain to see.

the Koran isn't a form of government. and islam is no more combative and aggressive than certain brands of Christianity. (mind you that I said CERTAIN brands). And, frankly, while I would never want to live someplace which attempted to impose sharia law, I also don't want to live in a country where religious zealots try to insert Christian dogma into law.

 

[Treeshepherd]

the Koran isn't a form of government. and islam is no more combative and aggressive than certain brands of Christianity. (mind you that I said CERTAIN brands). And, frankly, while I would never want to live someplace which attempted to impose sharia law, I also don't want to live in a country where religious zealots try to insert Christian dogma into law.

"Whatever its airs of mystery and images of skulls, pyramids, and all-seeing eyes, Freemasonry's most radical, even dangerous, idea was the encouragement of different faiths within a single nation. Early in his first term, Washington communicated these ideals in a letter to the congregation of a Rhode Island synagogue: "It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens..." In other words, in this new nation minority religions were not just guests at the table, but full householders." -Masons and the Making of America

Americans typically want a leader who has a religion, but isn't too serious about it. Americans didn't want Kennedy to be too Catholic. Didn't want Carter to be too Baptist. Didn't care if Reagan wasn't a churchgoer. Wanted Obama to distance himself from Jeremiah Wright...

 

[Syriusly]

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


That Islam reitterates this is because they make a big thing abot how Jews and Christians turned from God, and Islam is the 3rd time God has given its' will to Man.

Wanna knock a reliigon learn about it and your first or you're just embarassing yourself and your side.

The OP did not regard Christianity vs. Islam. Take your hate speech to another more suitable thread.

Hmmmm how is his comment hate speech if yours is not?

And he is right- both the Bible and the Quran both are contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

That you only want to condemn one is just an expression of religious prejudice.

 

[Treeshepherd]

"God has ordained the two governments: the spiritual, which by the Holy Spirit under Christ makes Christians and pious people; and the secular, which restrains the unchristian and wicked so that they are obliged to keep the peace outwardly… The laws of worldly government extend no farther than to life and property and what is external upon earth." - Martin Luther

Luther's treaty on two governments or two kingdoms was based on Augustine's City of God. My take on Augustine is that he viewed worldly government as a necessary evil until the soul of mankind could reach fruition. Anyway, Luther was a central figure in the Reformation. The natural progression from the Reformation would be the Enlightenment and John Locke's principles of the social contract.

Islam had no such comparable movements.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


That Islam reitterates this is because they make a big thing abot how Jews and Christians turned from God, and Islam is the 3rd time God has given its' will to Man.

Wanna knock a reliigon learn about it and your first or you're just embarassing yourself and your side.

The OP did not regard Christianity vs. Islam. Take your hate speech to another more suitable thread.

Hmmmm how is his comment hate speech if yours is not?

And he is right- both the Bible and the Quran both are contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

That you only want to condemn one is just an expression of religious prejudice.

I think I was using more of a situational definition of the word rather than a legal version. Coming into an Islam vs. Constitution thread with a bunch of preset anti-Christian crap was nonsense. He can start his own thread on that if he thinks it's that important. I'm not interested in the same lame deflections though.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The Constitution (including The Bill Of Rights) was made for a freedom loving people tolerant of different beliefs. The Quran was made to oppress the world. The media and most politicians are not acknowledging this reality. But the truth is plain to see.

the Koran isn't a form of government. and islam is no more combative and aggressive than certain brands of Christianity. (mind you that I said CERTAIN brands). And, frankly, while I would never want to live someplace which attempted to impose sharia law, I also don't want to live in a country where religious zealots try to insert Christian dogma into law.

There's no geo-scale Christianity denomination that is cancerous and murderous like Islam. You know this, I know it; let's not pretend otherwise.

 

[shadow355]

[QUOTE="Treeshepherd, post: 12443374, member: 51930"
The Bible doesn't tell you how to govern......[/QUOTE]

It does not tell how to govern, to the best of my recollect - but it gives guidelines for governing and speaks of how one should treat people - to include creatures.

It even gives guidence for what kind of birds one is to eat and not eat.

It gives guidance on worshipping.

It speaks of evil, the punishment for evil and what happens to evil doers - and just as an example = Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

It speaks of the rewards to the wise and bold.


Shadow 355

 

[shadow355]

.
There's no geo-scale Christianity denomination that is cancerous and murderous like Islam

Yeah. Today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism in Asia killing so many people from about the 18th Century to about the early 19th Century.


Shadow 355

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

.

Yeah. today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism.


Shadow 355

That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today.

 

[shadow355]

.

Yeah. today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism.


Shadow 355

That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today.

Life makes it circles. War, power, politics makes its circles ; and if you know history you would know aht i just said is true.

Europe is not the threat that they was in the past. Soon they will be again. It takes time, and it may even be a generation - But again ; war - power - politics....all make a circle.

From the bible ages to now - the sands, the mountains - Europe - Asia and now back to the sands again. History is......repeating itself.

Shadow 355

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

.

Yeah. today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism.


Shadow 355

That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today.

Life makes it circles. War, power, politics makes its circles ; and if you know history you would know aht i just said is true.

Europe is not the threat that they was in the past. Soon they will be again. It takes time, and it may even be a generation - But again ; war - power - politics....all make a circle.

From the bible ages to now - the sands, the mountains - Europe - Asia and now back to the sands again. History is......repeating itself.

Shadow 355

If you learned how to edit your semi-mindless posts, you could write fortune cookies.

 

[shadow355]

.

Yeah. today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism.


Shadow 355

That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today.

Life makes it circles. War, power, politics makes its circles ; and if you know history you would know aht i just said is true.

Europe is not the threat that they was in the past. Soon they will be again. It takes time, and it may even be a generation - But again ; war - power - politics....all make a circle.

From the bible ages to now - the sands, the mountains - Europe - Asia and now back to the sands again. History is......repeating itself.

Shadow 355

If you learned how to edit your semi-mindless posts, you could write fortune cookies.

I'm smart.

Military Service - 11 years + I am a Combat Veteran + I have a strong security background, compliments of the United States Government.

College - I have a College Degree.

Work - Public Safety for the past 23 years. I am what I describe as an assistant supervisor, although I do not receive any extra pay for my supervisory dutys.

I do research very well.

I study, I read books and I pay attention to detail.....most of the time.

And I very rarely "Miss a trick".


Shadow 355

 

[shadow355]

If you learned how to edit your semi-mindless posts, you could write fortune cookies.

My Drill Sergeant in Basic Training signed my Basic Training Year Book which had pictures of Basic Training and Soldiers in my Basic Training Company.

He wrote = " Drop Dick. No shit Batman. Everytime you start to think you get dangerous."

- Drill Sergeant L. Dubiel

-----------------------


I showed up, with alot of training my father had taught me. Observation and Listening Post. Bivouac. "Squaring Away my bunk ( bed ). Weapons. And a host of other stuff I already knew; thanks from being raised in a Military Family.

I was a heck of a Soldier in Basic Training. As was I in the Reserves and Active Duty. I had one heck of a career and learned so much.

Shadow 355

 

[jillian]

The Constitution (including The Bill Of Rights) was made for a freedom loving people tolerant of different beliefs. The Quran was made to oppress the world. The media and most politicians are not acknowledging this reality. But the truth is plain to see.

the Koran isn't a form of government. and islam is no more combative and aggressive than certain brands of Christianity. (mind you that I said CERTAIN brands). And, frankly, while I would never want to live someplace which attempted to impose sharia law, I also don't want to live in a country where religious zealots try to insert Christian dogma into law.

There's no geo-scale Christianity denomination that is cancerous and murderous like Islam. You know this, I know it; let's not pretend otherwise.

geo-scale? probably not. but I don't think I said it was "geo-scale". i'm pretty sure the relatives of Dr. Till aren't really concerned with that, however.

 

[jillian]

.

Yeah. today it is Islam. Yesteryear it was Buddism.


Shadow 355

That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today.

Life makes it circles. War, power, politics makes its circles ; and if you know history you would know aht i just said is true.

Europe is not the threat that they was in the past. Soon they will be again. It takes time, and it may even be a generation - But again ; war - power - politics....all make a circle.

From the bible ages to now - the sands, the mountains - Europe - Asia and now back to the sands again. History is......repeating itself.

Shadow 355

If you learned how to edit your semi-mindless posts, you could write fortune cookies.

I'm smart.

Military Service - 11 years + I am a Combat Veteran + I have a strong security background, compliments of the United States Government.

College - I have a College Degree.

Work - Public Safety for the past 23 years. I am what I describe as an assistant supervisor, although I do not receive any extra pay for my supervisory dutys.

I do research very well.

I study, I read books and I pay attention to detail.....most of the time.

And I very rarely "Miss a trick".


Shadow 355

to be fair, just because someone is intelligent doesn't mean they can write. and while I think you're basically saying that things run in cycles and if it's not one group it's another, i'm not certain that is clear in what you wrote.

although you are right about things going in cycles.

 

[Syriusly]

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


That Islam reitterates this is because they make a big thing abot how Jews and Christians turned from God, and Islam is the 3rd time God has given its' will to Man.

Wanna knock a reliigon learn about it and your first or you're just embarassing yourself and your side.

The OP did not regard Christianity vs. Islam. Take your hate speech to another more suitable thread.

Hmmmm how is his comment hate speech if yours is not?

And he is right- both the Bible and the Quran both are contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

That you only want to condemn one is just an expression of religious prejudice.

I think I was using more of a situational definition of the word rather than a legal version. Coming into an Islam vs. Constitution thread with a bunch of preset anti-Christian crap was nonsense. He can start his own thread on that if he thinks it's that important. I'm not interested in the same lame deflections though.

Of course not- you just want to attack Islam- for having a book that is as 'anti-Constitutional' as the Bible. And really, really don't want anyone to talk about how the Bible is just as 'anti-Constitutional'

Nothing bigoted about that at all. Nothing blatantly anti-Muslim about that.

 

[Syriusly]

The Constitution (including The Bill Of Rights) was made for a freedom loving people tolerant of different beliefs. The Quran was made to oppress the world. The media and most politicians are not acknowledging this reality. But the truth is plain to see.

the Koran isn't a form of government. and islam is no more combative and aggressive than certain brands of Christianity. (mind you that I said CERTAIN brands). And, frankly, while I would never want to live someplace which attempted to impose sharia law, I also don't want to live in a country where religious zealots try to insert Christian dogma into law.

There's no geo-scale Christianity denomination that is cancerous and murderous like Islam. You know this, I know it; let's not pretend otherwise.

Not any more. Go back to 1500 and 1600 and the only religion that was truly 'geo-scale' and cancerous and murderous was Christianity.

As Portugal, and then Spain, then France, Holland and Britain expanded through the world they forcibly converted millions of people to Christianity, over threw rulers that weren't Christian, and imposed a Christian based government from Asia to the Americas. Christians are completely capable of every extreme that groups yelling "Allah" are capable of- luckily for us- Christianity matured- and frankly the West secularlized so that Religion had less power- the Pope no longer commands armies, there is no longer a Holy Roman Emperor, no more Cromwells, no more Reformation. Want to see real violence- look at the violence of Christians versus Christians in the 100 years war.

Muslim extremism is dangerous- but most Muslims in the world live peaceful lives- and most people killed by Muslims- are killed by their fellow Muslims.

I wish my fellow Americans would spend less time determined to be terrified of every Muslim- so we can focus on defeating the Muslim extremists who pose some risk to us.