The Olmec Stone Heads.

[OldLady]

These are the Olmec Stone heads (there are others) found in the central Mexico region in the 19th century. They were carbon dated to 1200-600BCE.

That means the Olmecs were there long before the Incas or Aztecs or Mayan cultures began. At least according to all accepted history as to when those dynasties began.

I know a guy (biggest black supremacist I know) claims that these heads prove Africans were in the Americas even before the Natives. However, that fact has been written out of history.

Obviously I think he is ridiculous. I mean you have to hear him. He believes Africans began the Buddhist religion etc and ALL of Asia was settled by Africans.

Anyway, I have admit. Those stone heads sure look African (clear negroid features) to me. Anyone know anything about this? I Googled it and many seem to agree that it proves Africans were indeed in the Americas long before Columbus obviously. However, if they are indeed Africans, that would possibly mean they were indeed here before Natives.

Which I know must be impossible.

Actually, this is all well known.

The original Americans, here 10,000 years before the Indians are related to Australian Aborigines, not Africans. The rout traveled is from the South Pacific to South America.

First Americans were Black according to BBC documentary – Originalpeople.org

Because facts don't fit with the hate memes of the left, they ignore them. But the FACT that there were a black people in America before the Indians is established fact, as is the fact that the Indians engaged in total genocide of them.

Boats, TN, Australia to America. Prior to the last ice age.

 

[xyz]

I think the theory is totally plausible.

Also, black Africans had occupied most of southern Asia at one point. In places like Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia and so on they interbred with peoples that came later, but some remain in New Guinea. They aren't identical to modern Africans because it was so long ago.

 

[Theowl32]

They are both grown in plentiful abundance all over the world.

Do you have the same chart from 1200 BCE?

No..none exist prior to 1492.

However, I am sure we would have A LOT more evidence than a handful of mummies having tissue that may have contained trace amounts of nicotine according to one or two scientists.

If it was that valuable, we would indeed have a lot more information about tobacco and cocoa being traded and cultivated in those regions during ancient times.

As of now, there is nothing prior to the 1400s. The same goes for potatoes and maze.

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one carving that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought from the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Do you have the same chart from 1200 BCE?

No..none exist prior to 1492.

However, I am sure we would have A LOT more evidence than a handful of mummies having tissue that may have contained trace amounts of nicotine according to one or two scientists.

If it was that valuable, we would indeed have a lot more information about tobacco and cocoa being traded and cultivated in those regions during ancient times.

As of now, there is nothing prior to the 1400s. The same goes for potatoes and maze.

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, the most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

 

[TNHarley]

No..none exist prior to 1492.

However, I am sure we would have A LOT more evidence than a handful of mummies having tissue that may have contained trace amounts of nicotine according to one or two scientists.

If it was that valuable, we would indeed have a lot more information about tobacco and cocoa being traded and cultivated in those regions during ancient times.

As of now, there is nothing prior to the 1400s. The same goes for potatoes and maze.

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Right? Botanists wouldn't know shit about corn!
Dictionaries aren't good references either!
LOL

Who to believe, a random botanist or your lying eyes?

It was more than one. And I don't see it in that pic. I truly don't.

 

[TNHarley]

Do you have the same chart from 1200 BCE?

No..none exist prior to 1492.

However, I am sure we would have A LOT more evidence than a handful of mummies having tissue that may have contained trace amounts of nicotine according to one or two scientists.

If it was that valuable, we would indeed have a lot more information about tobacco and cocoa being traded and cultivated in those regions during ancient times.

As of now, there is nothing prior to the 1400s. The same goes for potatoes and maze.

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one carving that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought from the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

They didn't even know what it was until after 1500. The church was built in the 1460s or something like that.
Like I told frank, I don't see corn there.

 

[Theowl32]

No..none exist prior to 1492.

However, I am sure we would have A LOT more evidence than a handful of mummies having tissue that may have contained trace amounts of nicotine according to one or two scientists.

If it was that valuable, we would indeed have a lot more information about tobacco and cocoa being traded and cultivated in those regions during ancient times.

As of now, there is nothing prior to the 1400s. The same goes for potatoes and maze.

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

 

[TNHarley]

GREAT thread Owl.
Makes it even better we are all acting like adults LOL
I LOVE ancient history

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Right? Botanists wouldn't know shit about corn!
Dictionaries aren't good references either!
LOL

Who to believe, a random botanist or your lying eyes?

It was more than one. And I don't see it in that pic. I truly don't.

No worries, its not me against you in any event. I've been following these stories for over 3 decades. The most shocking thing I've learned is that the Smithsonian hires ships to drop anomalous artifacts out in Baltimore Canyon. I thought they had the Indiana Jones warehouse, but no, they destroy objects and our government actually threatens anyone who might go public with whatever they've found.

Last year I was fortunate enough to become friends with a man who was inducted as a 33rd degree Mason in a ceremony at Rosslyn Temple, so it helps to have hands on verification.

 

[Gracie]

Interesting discussion.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh?

How did Maize wind up in the stonework at Rosslyn Chappel in Scotland in the mid 1400's?

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

Have you read 1421?

 

[Theowl32]

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel
Dr Adrian Dyer, a professional botanist and husband of the Revd Janet Dyer, former Priest in Charge at Rosslyn Chapel, meticulously examined the botanical carvings in the Chapel. He looked at carvings of leaves that are claimed to be curly kale, oak leaves, cactus leaves, sunflowers and three-leaved botanical forms (trefoils).

Broadly speaking, Dr Dyer found the botanical forms in the Chapel to be stylised or conventionalised, not meant to be identifiable plants, with one exception. Hart's-tongue fern, an ancient fronded plant, was growing in Roslin Glen in the fourteenth century and is still found today under Rosslyn Castle. It can be seen, approximately life-size, carved on the Apprentice Pillar.

With respect to the fruits and flowers and their possible symbolism, the three-leaved flowers may be seen as references to the Trinity. However, the flowers in the roof which early guides described as 'daisies' are not true representations of that flower. There are some carvings which are reminiscent of the Madonna lily and may therefore have religious significance.

The Rosslyn 'corn' carvings. Photo: Kjetil Bjornsrud ©
One window in the Chapel is surrounded by carved plants that are claimed to be maize and aloe, two species that are native to North America and had not yet reached Europe by the 15th century, when Rosslyn was built. They have been used to support theories that William Sinclair's grandfather, the explorer Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, had secretly travelled to the Americas before Columbus.

This idea does not bear scrutiny. Dr Dyer found that there was no attempt to represent a species accurately: the 'maize' and 'aloe' carvings are almost certainly derived from stylized wooden patterns, whose resemblance to recognisable botanical forms is fortuitous.

Much the same conclusion was reached by archaeo-botanist Dr Brian Moffat, who also noted that the carvings of botanical forms are not naturalistic nor accurate. He found a highly stylised Arum Lily the most likely candidate for what has been identified as American maize.

As for the 'aloes', Dr Moffat points out that the consumer would never have seen the plant, only the sap which was used medicinally. There is no citation of either 'maize' or 'aloe' in the Oxford English Dictionary before the mid-sixteenth century; aloe was not imported to Spain until 1561. Moffat adds that "In common with the majority of Rosslyn's foliage, little life is on display and precious little nature."

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

Have you read 1421?

No, what is it about?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Riiiiiiiigght.

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

Have you read 1421?

No, what is it about?

It's about a 600 ship Chinese armada that spend three years circumnavigating and mapping the globe.

To give some idea of the size of the ships in the armada, a 500 year old teak wood rudder found off the coast of Australia was taller than any of Columbus's ships

 

[Theowl32]

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

Have you read 1421?

No, what is it about?

It's about a 600 ship Chinese armada that spend three years circumnavigating and mapping the globe.

To give some idea of the size of the ships in the armada, a 500 year old teak wood rudder found off the coast of Australia was taller than any of Columbus's ships

I am just wondering if there is anything in history that suggests that Africans from North Africa or West Africa had the know how to sail across the Atlantic.

I do not think there is anything that suggests they had the ability to do it. I can see how a 600 ship armada could do it. It would probably take that many ships to cross the vast Pacific, just to have the rations.

Pretty sure that was one of the main problems. The logistics more than likely prevented any real explorations.

I mean think about it. If you run out of rations half way across (and you would not know if you are half way) and you don't go back to find a way to replenish, you are dead. I mean think about it.

That was one of the reasons why the ancient Polynesians were probably the most skillful seafaring people of the ancient world. There is actual evidence that they built ships that they fitted to allow crops to be grown ON the ships.

This is the KNOWN routes that the Polynesians (ancient) sailed.

I remember reading about how this would be possible. Archeologists discovered that they were able to outfit their ships with rations that could be grown etc. Meaning, they could go a lot further than other cultures who did not have that plan. I do not think they went out with large armadas either.

That was quite an accomplishment and a significant amount balls to island hop when you have no clue where the islands were or if any island was there. Those maps don't give a true idea of the vastness of the Pacific.

Try driving from NY to LA and then imagine ALL of that sailing is more than 3 times the distance of that.

 

[Syriusly]

These are the Olmec Stone heads (there are others) found in the central Mexico region in the 19th century. They were carbon dated to 1200-600BCE.

That means the Olmecs were there long before the Incas or Aztecs or Mayan cultures began. At least according to all accepted history as to when those dynasties began.

I know a guy (biggest black supremacist I know) claims that these heads prove Africans were in the Americas even before the Natives. However, that fact has been written out of history.

Obviously I think he is ridiculous. I mean you have to hear him. He believes Africans began the Buddhist religion etc and ALL of Asia was settled by Africans.

Anyway, I have admit. Those stone heads sure look African (clear negroid features) to me. Anyone know anything about this? I Googled it and many seem to agree that it proves Africans were indeed in the Americas long before Columbus obviously. However, if they are indeed Africans, that would possibly mean they were indeed here before Natives.

Which I know must be impossible.

Actually, this is all well known.

The original Americans, here 10,000 years before the Indians are related to Australian Aborigines, not Africans. The rout traveled is from the South Pacific to South America.

First Americans were Black according to BBC documentary – Originalpeople.org

Because facts don't fit with the hate memes of the left, they ignore them. But the FACT that there were a black people in America before the Indians is established fact, as is the fact that the Indians engaged in total genocide of them.

Established fact? LOL

While it is possible that people related to Australian Aborigines arrived in the Americas, there is no real evidence that they did. Your 'evidence' is from 1999. Have they done DNA testing on those skulls? Assuming that there is some DNA still in the bone, that would answer the question very easily.

It is very likely that there were instances of contact between the New World and the Old- there isn't much evidence.

There is evidence of Polynesian contact- sweet potatoes from SA ended up in Polynesia- but pigs from Polynesia didn't make to the New World. Viking contact rather dead ended up in the North. The Chinese were certainly capable of reaching the New World as were the Japanese and the Koreans- but there is evidence that they did so.

 

[Syriusly]

Again, the one painting that has shown to have other explanations other than CORN being brought to the North Americas.

Either way, there is no historical documented evidence that corn was in any way a stable diet anywhere in Europe prior to the 1400s.

I get it. The carvings. Anything else?

Now, it leads to ask this. Much like the ancient Egyptians not cultivating these valuable information crops, even though they valued them so much, is why isn't there anything else other than that carving?

Meaning, did the Knights Templar want to keep their discovery of corn on the cob so secret that they had it carved prominently on the ceiling of a church for the whole congregation to see for centuries to come?

Just trying to understand what the claims actually are here.

The Templars went into hiding in 1307. Their fleet vanished from the harbor on the very night Thursday the 12th King Philip sent the order to round them up. The next morning, Friday the 13th, these most powerful group in Europe was targeted for extermination.

Not likely they would advertise their whereabouts after that or sponsor a local Farmers Market. But to leave evidence like that: maize and aloe as a way of telling anyone, "yes, we're alive and we're in the Americas" well, that could work.

Yeah, and the myth of Saint Brendan who is the Patron Saint of sailors or boatmen, is said to have made it to the Americas in the 6th century.

A lot of stories out there.

Have you read 1421?

No, what is it about?

It's about a 600 ship Chinese armada that spend three years circumnavigating and mapping the globe.

To give some idea of the size of the ships in the armada, a 500 year old teak wood rudder found off the coast of Australia was taller than any of Columbus's ships

It is a fun read- and that fleet actually existed- it was actually I think 3 seperate fleets- but the author's 'evidence' is really flimsy and not substantiated.

Some of the stuff he mentioned- like a wreck of a Chinese Junk up the Sacramento river- I can't find any record of- anywhere.

That fleet certainly could have gotten here- certainly by sailing across the Pacific- but he theory that they sailed all the way to the East Coast is mostly his whimsy.

 

[Syriusly]

So, its just bad science that coca AND nicotine are in Egyptian mummies? Was the scientist himself snorting coke while conducting the test?

Do you not find it the least bit curious that he is the only one to have found that in mummies and when another scientist tried to test it, they weren't even there for her to?

"Abstract Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy. The concentration profiles additionally provide evidence for the preferential ways of consumption: Thus, the highest levels of THC in lung specimens point to an inhalation of this drug -- as it has been assumed from known ritual smoking ceremonies --, while nicotine and cocaine containing drugs showed their highest concentrations in the intestines and liver, so that they seem to have been consumed perorally. Furthermore, a histopathological examination of the internal organ tissues revealed some evidence for the underlying disease and the probable cause of death. Thus, a severe and presumably recurrent intravital pulmonary bleeding, most obviously due to a parasitosis affecting the lung, was observed."

Presence of drugs in different tissues of an egyptian mummy

From a journal of analytical chemistry.

BTW, the scientific community especially the Smithsonian is notorious for destroying "anomalous" artifacts

Well I have to thank you for providing links to a study I had not heard of.

I dug around and there is not universal acceptance of the results- but at the same time there is not a definitive rejection


American Drugs in Ancient Egyptian Mummies?

This is just a quick overview of the evidence but on balance it seems there is still insufficient evidence to suggest that the Ancient Egyptians actively traded with their counterparts in South America. One day this might change but at the moment it seems unlikely. More testing is certainly called for but until that happens we can hold off rewriting the history books just yet.

 

[Theowl32]

So, its just bad science that coca AND nicotine are in Egyptian mummies? Was the scientist himself snorting coke while conducting the test?

Do you not find it the least bit curious that he is the only one to have found that in mummies and when another scientist tried to test it, they weren't even there for her to?

"Abstract Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy. The concentration profiles additionally provide evidence for the preferential ways of consumption: Thus, the highest levels of THC in lung specimens point to an inhalation of this drug -- as it has been assumed from known ritual smoking ceremonies --, while nicotine and cocaine containing drugs showed their highest concentrations in the intestines and liver, so that they seem to have been consumed perorally. Furthermore, a histopathological examination of the internal organ tissues revealed some evidence for the underlying disease and the probable cause of death. Thus, a severe and presumably recurrent intravital pulmonary bleeding, most obviously due to a parasitosis affecting the lung, was observed."

Presence of drugs in different tissues of an egyptian mummy

From a journal of analytical chemistry.

BTW, the scientific community especially the Smithsonian is notorious for destroying "anomalous" artifacts

Well I have to thank you for providing links to a study I had not heard of.

I dug around and there is not universal acceptance of the results- but at the same time there is not a definitive rejection


American Drugs in Ancient Egyptian Mummies?

This is just a quick overview of the evidence but on balance it seems there is still insufficient evidence to suggest that the Ancient Egyptians actively traded with their counterparts in South America. One day this might change but at the moment it seems unlikely. More testing is certainly called for but until that happens we can hold off rewriting the history books just yet.

If anything, the Egyptians were not trading WITH South America. They were trading with China, WHO may have been "trading" with South America.

Lets say the Egyptians did have actual cocaine in their systems or tobacco (just because it is nicotine, does not make it "tobacco") then it is more likely than not that they got it third hand via the Chinese.

There is also a distinct possibility that the Chinese would not want the known world to know about ALL of their sources. I know that it is was common practice that resources were vigilantly guarded.

 

[Theowl32]

Ok, as far as the Olmecs and the "Negroid" features. I just read portions of this.

This is a good site to learn about the Olmec. No, they were not African in origin.

https://mikeruggerisolmecs.tumblr.com/


"There is no evidence for the presence of African migrants to the New World before Columbus. No artifacts have been found whose raw material source can be traced to Africa; no artifacts whose style could come only from a pre-Columbian African source have been found in the New World; and finally, no skeletal remains have been found, dating to a pre-Columbian context, with DNA proving an African source. The civilizations of the New World, including those of Mesoamerica and South America, exhibit archaeological evidence for a long sequence of indigenous development and no evidence for inspiration outside of the New World. The Olmec heads were the product of indigenous skills in quarrying, transportation, and sculpting, as well as the ability to conscript and organize labor for monumental undertakings. The Olmec heads provide no support for hypotheses of the presence of Africans or Europeans, or recent Asian migrants to the New World.”-pg.201-203, Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis to the Walam Olum by Kenneth L. Feder – 2010

I think this says it quite well. There simply is little, or no evidence other than subjective interpretations of stone heads, which look as much Polynesian as African. There are not even anomalous objects, such as there are for Euro or Eastern presence theory.

 

[whitehall]

As far as I know you can't carbon date inert stone.