The Monkey Syndrome

[Ravi]

I declare this to be the stupidest analogy of the week.

 

[xsited1]

How did spraying the other monkeys prevent the first one from getting the banana?

I think that the fact that one monkey gets a banana, and the rest get soaked accounts for the violence of the response. It is not enough that the others get wet, but that the one gets the goodies all the rest missed out on.

It is possible that some class envy was involved, but I did not get that from the story. The thrust of the story for me is that the collective mindset is that eveybody is required to think, act, and conduct themselves the same or be punished by the collective.

Anyone who thinks or acts outside the box will have the crap beat out of them.

If you need modern illustration, look what happens if somebody dares violate the collective P.C. code. They are crucified by the media and a host of people fighting to get in front of a camera to denounce the errant 'monkey'. There will be demands for the person to resign, to be fired, to be boycotted. Nobody is interested in exploring context or intent of the remark. It will not be allowed. The collective will administer punishment to anybody who thinks outside the box.

Or look at anybody who dares suggest that certain programs are cut or certain laws are repealed or an entitlement be restructured to eliminate the deficit and balance the budget. The collective will beat the crap out of that person as such thinking is not to be allowed at all, much less explored or analyzed for what possibilities it might contain.

The monkeys don't even care that they have never experienced what they fear or don't know what the risks might be. They would rather do without the banana than allow anybody to try because it has always been that way.

Well said. Here's the original source:

Stephenson, G. R. (1967). Cultural acquisition of a specific learned response among rhesus monkeys. In: Starek, D., Schneider, R., and Kuhn, H. J. (eds.), Progress in Primatology, Stuttgart: Fischer, pp. 279-288.

And here's more information:

Social Transmission of Acquired Behavior: A Discussion of Tradition and Social Learning in Vertebrates

 

[masquerade]

My favorite monkey experiment was the professor who attempted to prove or disprove the old "if a million monkeys typed for a million years, one of them would recreate Shakespeare"

So he wanted to see if monkeys truly typed in random patterns. He put ten keyboards in with ten monkeys and recorded what was typed. After a month he terminated the experiment because all the monkeys would do was shit all over the keyboards.

I work within the healthcare industry in an highly diverse urban area and sometimes I'll come across a patient's name that I swear was typed by a monkey gone wild on a keyboard.

 

[Foxfyre]

Start with a cage containing five monkeys.

Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string from the ceiling.

Place a set of stairs under the banana.

Before long a monkey will go up the stairs and reach for the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, all the other monkeys are sprayed with icy cold water which is quite unpleasant for monkeys.

When a second monkey make an attempt to reach the banana, again all the other monkeys are sprayed with icy cold water. A third monkey going for the stairs is prevented from doing so by the others.

From that point on no monkey dares attempt to reach the banana.

The cold water is put away and one monkey is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one.

The new monkey sees the banana and attempts to climb the stairs. To his shock, all of the other monkeys beat the crap out of him. After a second attempt followed by the same punishment, he no longer attempts to climb the stairs.

A second of the original monkeys is removed and replaced with a new one. The newscomer goes for the stairs and is atttacked with the previous newcomer enthusiastically taking part in the discilinary action.

One by one replace the third, fourth, and fifth monkeys in the same manner until
there are no monkeys left in the cage who have ever been doused with icy cold water. But any newcomer who attempts to climb the stairs to reach the banana will be attacked by all the others.

Why? Because in their minds it has always been that way.

MORAL OF STORY:

Every now and then, most or all of the monkeys should be replaced at the same time.

If the "moral" includes no more cold water at all, I agree. If not, the same thing will happen.

Or maybe the new monkeys will have observed the collective groupthink and how counter productive it is and figure out how to dispel the cold water. Or be brave enough to risk it. The 'old' monkeys did not have a history to inform them.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yes, get new ones in every four to 6 years and Senate every 12.

Hell no. We're already stuck with bad Senators for six and good ones who run the whole show by being "tenured" into key committees. All 535 should have 3-year terms. The House with only 2 terms means that they actually only work for one year, then spend the second year campaigning. With the president at four years, that will give all 535 two full years to work WITH the Executive Branch, then campaign for their final (third) year if they want a turnover in the entire government, not just the presidency. Mid-terms always (ALWAYS!!) fuck everything up because often important and RELEVANT bills come to a screeching halt while the noobs get their feet wet.

 

[Indy Terry]

How did spraying the other monkeys prevent the first one from getting the banana?

We all know that the zoo keepers pulled the banana away after the first monkey went for it. Promises, promises and nobody comes through with the prize.

 

[MaggieMae]

It didn't.

That's not the point.

If you read the story carefully, it is always the same banana. Notice the second monkey only attempted to reach the banana.

It says "the banana." It doesn't say the SAME banana.

And again, that is not the point.

For clarity purposes, you may assume monkey # 1 reached the fuckin' banana, ate it and someone replaced it before the second step of the experiment.

I think the monkeys spraying water were Republican monkeys. It's their way of just saying no.

 

[Ravi]

How did spraying the other monkeys prevent the first one from getting the banana?

We all know that the zoo keepers pulled the banana away after the first monkey went for it. Promises, promises and nobody comes through with the prize.

Do we know that? Okay, fair enough, we will take your word for it.

Why do the monkeys only try one at a time to get the banana? I would be amazed to see such unnatural behavior unless there was already an alpha monkey and then the water wouldn't matter because he or she would be the only one that ever attempted to get the banana and he or she would also never get sprayed.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, get new ones in every four to 6 years and Senate every 12.

Hell no. We're already stuck with bad Senators for six and good ones who run the whole show by being "tenured" into key committees. All 535 should have 3-year terms. The House with only 2 terms means that they actually only work for one year, then spend the second year campaigning. With the president at four years, that will give all 535 two full years to work WITH the Executive Branch, then campaign for their final (third) year if they want a turnover in the entire government, not just the presidency. Mid-terms always (ALWAYS!!) fuck everything up because often important and RELEVANT bills come to a screeching halt while the noobs get their feet wet.

I would go further. Lengthen the terms a bit--maybe eight years in the Senate; four years in the House; six years in the Presidency. And then they have to be out of office for two years before they can run for re-election. Do away with all Congressional and Presidential pension funds/entitlements and remove the federal government's ability to use tax revenues as any form of charity.

And that I think would eliminate the viscious election campaign syndrome as well as restore integrity to the federal government.

 

[MaggieMae]

There is no indication that even with the stairs the monkey can reach the banana either. So that point is moot.

The focus is on whether the monkey will attempt to reach the banana.

Substitute tree huggers for the monkeys and substitue oil exploration in ANWR for the banana.

Substitute Congress for the monkeys and substitute the deficit for the banana.

Works just as well.

Lots of "substitutes" come to mind. I like the substitution of laid off workers as the monkeys and corporate greed as the banana(s), as per your previous philosophical interpretation:

A conclusion is that the presence of courage, innovation, risk taking, and ability to think outside the box is in direct proportion to how much group think is involved.

 

[kwc57]

Gimme my banana dammit.

As stated earlier, you have to play cards for a banana. Texas hold'em or blackjack?

 

[MaggieMae]

They're in a cage . . . . surely there are clever monkeys who avoid the stairs altogether, climb the bars of the cage and actually reach the banana before getting sprayed, no?

Frankly, having watched Animal Planet since its inception and many documentaries on the clever ability of simian primates to figure out the mundane, these particular monkeys would have eventually just ignored the ice water after realizing it wasn't painful.

 

[xsited1]

If you read the story carefully, it is always the same banana. Notice the second monkey only attempted to reach the banana.

It says "the banana." It doesn't say the SAME banana.

And again, that is not the point.

For clarity purposes, you may assume monkey # 1 reached the fuckin' banana, ate it and someone replaced it before the second step of the experiment.

I think the monkeys spraying water were Republican monkeys. It's their way of just saying no.

Maybe they were fat monkeys, like this guy:

 

[midcan5]

Actually I saw the final chapter of this small parable, a progressive monkey found a long stick and knocked the banana down. She of course shared it with it the other more conservative monkeys who sat around quite dumbfounded on how easy a task it turned out to be. One old monkey still argued about tradition but they all ate happily.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/88682-a-conservative-wakes-up.html

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." Anais Nin

 

[MaggieMae]

My favorite monkey experiment was the professor who attempted to prove or disprove the old "if a million monkeys typed for a million years, one of them would recreate Shakespeare"

So he wanted to see if monkeys truly typed in random patterns. He put ten keyboards in with ten monkeys and recorded what was typed. After a month he terminated the experiment because all the monkeys would do was shit all over the keyboards.

Funny, but I'm not so sure they couldn't be taught to type. After all, learning the proper way to type (not hunting/pecking or with two forefingers or thumbs) is only accomplished by rote. I've been typing for so many years, I type words, not letters. If I have to think about the letters by finding them on a keyboard, it takes forever. After they learned that talent, they could also learn which words to type in response to a programmed question or command. Now as to creating Shakespeare, that's highly doubtful.

 

[Ravi]

Actually I saw the final chapter of this small parable, a progressive monkey found a long stick and knocked the banana down. She of course shared it with it the other more conservative monkeys who sat around quite dumbfounded on how easy a task it turned out to be. One old monkey still argued about tradition but they all ate happily.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/88682-a-conservative-wakes-up.html

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." Anais Nin

I've seen two other versions.

In one, the monkeys are Republicans. The alpha monkey keeps eating bananas and laughing his ass off as the other four starve to death. Eventually he is the one that is frightened from the banana with a spray of water since he is the only one left to try. He dies a slow and lonely death.

The second version has the monkeys as Democrats. The alpha monkey gets the banana, shares it with the others and then they all pretend to be dead. The evil monkey experimenter is puzzled and enters the cage whereupon the monkeys attack him and lock him in the cage before making their way back to the jungle where they live happily ever after.

 

[MaggieMae]

How did spraying the other monkeys prevent the first one from getting the banana?

I think that the fact that one monkey gets a banana, and the rest get soaked accounts for the violence of the response. It is not enough that the others get wet, but that the one gets the goodies all the rest missed out on.

It is possible that some class envy was involved, but I did not get that from the story. The thrust of the story for me is that the collective mindset is that eveybody is required to think, act, and conduct themselves the same or be punished by the collective.

Anyone who thinks or acts outside the box will have the crap beat out of them.

If you need modern illustration, look what happens if somebody dares violate the collective P.C. code. They are crucified by the media and a host of people fighting to get in front of a camera to denounce the errant 'monkey'. There will be demands for the person to resign, to be fired, to be boycotted. Nobody is interested in exploring context or intent of the remark. It will not be allowed. The collective will administer punishment to anybody who thinks outside the box.

Or look at anybody who dares suggest that certain programs are cut or certain laws are repealed or an entitlement be restructured to eliminate the deficit and balance the budget. The collective will beat the crap out of that person as such thinking is not to be allowed at all, much less explored or analyzed for what possibilities it might contain.

The monkeys don't even care that they have never experienced what they fear or don't know what the risks might be. They would rather do without the banana than allow anybody to try because it has always been that way.

I see your examples as just evolutionary. After all, conventional wisdom says that we evolved from monkeys anyway, and were just more advanced intellectually. But the genetic code to desire change but remain the same is still there.

 

[Tank]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gpoCaq6n8]YouTube - The Matrix of Culture and Habit - 5 Monkey Syndrome[/ame]

 

[MaggieMae]

Bad monkeys need to be spanked.

I've avoided watching that movie which is occasionally a choice on IFC. My brother-in-law who general loves kinky sex topics says it was even too weird for him.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yes, get new ones in every four to 6 years and Senate every 12.

Hell no. We're already stuck with bad Senators for six and good ones who run the whole show by being "tenured" into key committees. All 535 should have 3-year terms. The House with only 2 terms means that they actually only work for one year, then spend the second year campaigning. With the president at four years, that will give all 535 two full years to work WITH the Executive Branch, then campaign for their final (third) year if they want a turnover in the entire government, not just the presidency. Mid-terms always (ALWAYS!!) fuck everything up because often important and RELEVANT bills come to a screeching halt while the noobs get their feet wet.

I would go further. Lengthen the terms a bit--maybe eight years in the Senate; four years in the House; six years in the Presidency. And then they have to be out of office for two years before they can run for re-election. Do away with all Congressional and Presidential pension funds/entitlements and remove the federal government's ability to use tax revenues as any form of charity.

And that I think would eliminate the viscious election campaign syndrome as well as restore integrity to the federal government.

With that length of time, most of them would be forced to end their strict partisanship as various events unfold. So, maybe. But before that happened, a complete overhaul of the existing "rules" of both houses would need to be simplified. Also, if some lawmaker just couldn't compromise for whatever reason and wished to simply resign, s/he would be restricted from lobbying for a private organization forever.