The Lowdown on Electric Cars

[Old Rocks]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXNTKGhbqKw&feature=related]YouTube - solar shingle[/ame]

 

[Old Rocks]

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

I see. We have forgotten how to make electiric heaters or air conditioners?

Heat is not a problem with an ICE because they are so inefficient that they throw away 80% or better of the fuels energy as heat. Turn on the air conditioner in your car, and you use more fuel. Same for an EV. Turn on the heat or air conditioner, and you use more electricity.

I think the point is that every extra thing you do cuts down on the batteries charge, and therefore the range of the vehicle. Items you take for granted in a ICE car that can run off the alternator lights, radio, kids TV, AC (heat too, now that you cant use engine waste heat) will run down the charge. Not a deal breaker I think, but would have to be taken into account in your mileage calculations.

Why an alternator? As for the rest of it, it all requires extra fuel when you do it in a ICE driven car, thereby reducing the range. If your car has a 500 mile range, and you reduce it to 400 miles because of heat, air conditioning, ect. is it that bad of a deal? 400 miles is not a bad distance between charges, expecially if you can do them in the time that it takes for dinner. That is a factor that I have not yet seen mentioned in the literature on the Zinc-air battery.

 

[martybegan]

I see. We have forgotten how to make electiric heaters or air conditioners?

Heat is not a problem with an ICE because they are so inefficient that they throw away 80% or better of the fuels energy as heat. Turn on the air conditioner in your car, and you use more fuel. Same for an EV. Turn on the heat or air conditioner, and you use more electricity.

I think the point is that every extra thing you do cuts down on the batteries charge, and therefore the range of the vehicle. Items you take for granted in a ICE car that can run off the alternator lights, radio, kids TV, AC (heat too, now that you cant use engine waste heat) will run down the charge. Not a deal breaker I think, but would have to be taken into account in your mileage calculations.

Why an alternator? As for the rest of it, it all requires extra fuel when you do it in a ICE driven car, thereby reducing the range. If your car has a 500 mile range, and you reduce it to 400 miles because of heat, air conditioning, ect. is it that bad of a deal? 400 miles is not a bad distance between charges, expecially if you can do them in the time that it takes for dinner. That is a factor that I have not yet seen mentioned in the literature on the Zinc-air battery.

Um... because an alternator in a car converts some of the power from the ICE to electricity?

I dont have the math handy, but the range reduction of anything except the air conditioner in an ICE car is trivial. And it is a bad deal if the people trying to sell the cars advertise a 500 mile range and dont include the other items.

 

[skookerasbil]

Electric cars are gay and you know what???? A vast # of Americans feel the same way..........NOBODY wants to drive these fagotty -ass cars except people with issues.

When's the last time you passed a big parking lot filled with people and cars and the cars were all those gay SMARTCARS??? Thank you!!!!

Every weekend millions attend car shows, and lots of them pass around magazines about cars..........this car. vs that car. You'll have to search long and hard to find a Motor Trend perfomance comparison: SMARTCAR vs Yaris!!!!



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Sick 03 Cobra Burnout Video by - D.Rock - - MySpace Video

WARNING: VIEWING THIS VIDEO MAY MAKE LIBERALS NAUSEOUS

 

[westwall]

http://www.reveo.com/us/reveofiles/reveofiles/Acrobat Document-zinc.pdf


Very Promising! Zinc-Air Battery Could Hold 300% More Energy Than Lithium-Ion : TreeHugger


For electric vehicles, ReVolt is developing a novel battery structure that resembles that of a fuel cell. Its first batteries use two flat electrodes, which are comparable in size. In the new batteries, one electrode will be a liquid--a zinc slurry. The air electrodes will be in the form of tubes. To generate electricity, the zinc slurry, which is stored in one compartment in the battery, is pumped through the tubes where it's oxidized, forming zinc oxide and releasing electrons. The zinc oxide then accumulates in another compartment in the battery. During recharging, the zinc oxide flows back through the air electrode, where it releases the oxygen, forming zinc again.
This would increase energy density, and also increase the number of cycles before degradation (up to between 2,000 and 10,000 according to the company).

This is very promising, but as usual with news from the lab, we'll have to wait until it hits the market before we can know if it's really the holy grail...

Zinc-Air batteries are indeed a very good option if they can make them rechargeable. They've been trying since the 1980's to do that. They hold a tremendous amount of juice for their size which is why they are used in hearing aids and other small electronic devices.
ReVolt has been able to get a cell capable of around a 100 charge cycles so far. If they can multiply that times a 100 they'll definately have something good!

Take that research money away from the AGW fraudsters and give it to these guys! They'll actually do something positive with it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

What's the average commuting distance for americans?

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

I see. We have forgotten how to make electiric heaters or air conditioners?

Heat is not a problem with an ICE because they are so inefficient that they throw away 80% or better of the fuels energy as heat. Turn on the air conditioner in your car, and you use more fuel. Same for an EV. Turn on the heat or air conditioner, and you use more electricity.

You obviously are so defensive you can't answer a simple question. Let me rephrase.

Since electric cars get pretty shitty mileage per charge, how will running a power hungry electric heater or air conditioner affect the mileage?

If your going to get 250 miles per charge without running heat or AC, what will you get when you do run them?

And you don't use more fuel when running the heat in a car. Heat produced by the engine is diverted to the vent system via vents and an electric fan. When running A/C the compressor is turned by the engine and one might get slightly less mileage. I have a feeling the drain on an electric only system will be much more deleterious to performance.

 

[Skull Pilot]

YouTube - Inside roll-to-roll CIGS thin film manufacturing with Global Solar

YouTube - Thin Film Solar Flat Roof - 5 kW in 2.5 hours.

YouTube - Lumeta: peel & stick solar - 2.25 kw in 34 minutes

YouTube - Nanosolar Utility Panel

All well and good but if your roof is not at an optimal angle you still have to construct what are basically sails on your roof that will be placed under stress from winds and snow loading and most roofs are not designed for those factors.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, then perhaps mount the panels somewhere else other than the roof of the house.

 

[GHook93]

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

[ame=http://askville.amazon.com/average-commuting-distance-americans/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2554434]What's the average commuting distance for americans?[/ame]

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

Heating and/or air conditioning, GPS, head lights, internal lighting, the electronics and radio are all built into the estimate. Much the same way all those energy using devices are built into the miles per gallon with gas cars.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well, then perhaps mount the panels somewhere else other than the roof of the house.

Yeah let's just cut down all the trees around our houses so we can put solar panels all over our front lawns.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What I find interesting here is that the Conservatives, who claim to love liberty and independence, are all stating that the idea of someone producing their own power for their home and fuel for their transportation is a bad idea and can't and shouldn't be done.

Such dingbat claims such as one solar panel won't power my cabin. Well, a one cylinder Briggs and Stratton engine will not power my automobile. So, by your logic, an ICE is obviously incapable of supplying power for transportation.

Now, the battery technology is getting better every day, and there are places that see what the future will be.

ReVolt announces plans to develop rechargable batteries in Portland | OregonLive.com

Welcome to Portland, ReVolt!" Adams enthused in the company's press release. "As a company on the cutting edge of the electric-vehicle industry, ReVolt is bringing to Portland its commitment to innovation and Portland is one step further down the road to being America's EV hub."

ReVolt is "joining a bright, collaborative and exciting business community, and creating great jobs for our talented workforce," the mayor said.

Zinc-air batteries create an electrical current through a chemical reaction between zinc and the oxygen in air.

The company says that by using zinc, a globally-abundant industrial mineral, ReVolt's rechargeable batteries offer up to triple the energy density of lithium-ion batteries - at a significantly lower price. ReVolt's zinc-air batteries pose no risks during operation, the company says, making them well-suited for vehicle applications. When fully depleted, the batteries degrade into environmentally-benign compounds.

Funny, last time I looked conservatives are in favor of that. Please show me where anyone said anything like you claim here.

The claims I have seen is that solar power, even with batteries, is not currently capable of powering a cabin, or charging an EV. Since this is something you agree with when you point out that batteries are getting better, and are almost at the point where they can do this, I see no reason for you to claim that anyone saying this is wrong.

Why is it liberals always trust companies that claim a product is perfectly safe if they also claim it is green? Then they scream about how unsafe Toyota is because they do not have unions, even though it is perfectly clear to anyone who can think that 98% of Toyota's problems are caused by the person behind the wheel?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Notice the difference, when you denied saying you won't use a battery with your solar panel, I POSTED your own post where you said it, but you have yet to post anything YOU claim I said.

Day or night, in a grid-tied solar system an EV will charge just as fast as any household connected to the grid without a solar system because they are both charged from the grid! DUH!!!
The only difference is, when the sun is shining and your grid-tied solar system is producing more energy than you are using your meter runs backwards and in a non-solar household the meter never runs backwards.

No, you posted something where I said I do not have a battery on my system, not one where I said I do will not use one. On the other hand, I have posted quotes where you did say what you said.

You did not mention anything about a gird tied system initially, and we are not discussing that. We are discussing a hypothetical system that is not tied to a grid. If it is tied to a grid, the solar panel is not charging the EV, the grid is. The grid does not supplement the solar panels in a grid tied system, because the grid is larger and has more available power, the panels supplement the grid.

Why are you running around acting like I am not the one who understands how this works?

This is funny. If I have a system that puts less power on the grid than I use, from my perspective, then I am supplementing the grid power with that system. However, if my system put out more power than I use, then the grid is a supplement to my system.

Photovoltaic solar puts out it's power only during the day. However, that happens to be the time of peak demand. Not only that, but often there is little use of residential power during that time, while the industrial demand is peaking. With electric vehicles, most would be charging at night, when demand is lowest, so the efficient use of the grid would be improved with a combination of a lot of residential solar and electric vehicles.

Where did I say that it is not a good idea to have a solar array? What I called ed on was his claim that I could plug an EV into a solar panel and charge it. Then he claimed that it would charge as fast as it would if it was plugged into the grid, because it is plugged into the grid. Unless you want to debate me on those terms you are arguing with something I did not say, which is pretty typical of you anyway, but don't expect me to try to defend the imaginary position you are attacking.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Tesla also charges more for their cars than GM or Toyota, thus proving that EVs are a rich mans toy, and not practical for the average American.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

If the wild claims of the company pan out.

Right now Tesla obviously has the best battery Tech in the world, so I doubt they are going to be buying anything from Revolt.

 

[JBeukema]

Electric Car Drives 375 Miles at 55 mph, Recharges In 6 Minutes - All Cars Electric

What Range Anxiety? Daihatsu EV Does 623 Miles On One Charge - All Cars Electric

 

[PoliticalChic]

Electric Car Drives 375 Miles at 55 mph, Recharges In 6 Minutes - All Cars Electric

What Range Anxiety? Daihatsu EV Does 623 Miles On One Charge - All Cars Electric

"If the battery technology is truly as revolutionary as this impressive journey hints..."

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!

If by Rudyard Kipling

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Electric Car Drives 375 Miles at 55 mph, Recharges In 6 Minutes - All Cars Electric

What Range Anxiety? Daihatsu EV Does 623 Miles On One Charge - All Cars Electric

My guess that they used the same type of techniques that hypermilers use. In other words, it ain't happening in the real world.

 

[Old Rocks]

Your guess is not well informed. The hypermilers techniques are for ICE's and would not work at all for electric autos.

 

[asterism]

EVs can also be charged from home solar panels and wind generators. Thin film solar panels have brought the price down and Obama offers a 30% tax rebate for installing solar panels. Of course, if the CON$ take over Congress that will probably be one of the first things they will kill.
Technology is dynamic, constantly changing, but CON$ervatism is static, stuck in the past.

The issue is previous technological improvements resulted in less work being done for a given task. Cars replaced horses, replacing feed, stabling, excrement cleanup and veterinary care, which was more expensive than gas, and maintenance. Rerigerators replaced ice boxes, replacing the need to have ice delivered, as well as increasing storage size.

The problem with current evironmental technological upgrades is they appear to create MORE work than the original item they are replacing. The benefit is not apparent, but some amorphous concept such as "saving the planet."

It isnt the politics, its the fact you are asking people to do more, with increased technology and cost, than what they had before.

Solar panels pay for themselves in a few years depending on the price of electricity in the area, and afterward provide a positive cash flow.
Try again.

I keep hearing all these great things about solar and how cheap it is, but I've never been able to find any affordable solutions. Do you have a link where I can buy some of what you describe? Solar units with payback of "a few years?"

 

[asterism]

YouTube - solar shingle

That's an amazing idea, few (but significant) flaws. For starters the flimsy wiring will not last up on a roof. Then maintenance on those wires means tearing the whole system apart. But that can be worked out.

However, this video came out 2 1/2 years ago but we can't buy the product yet. Why is that?