The Lowdown on Electric Cars

[Bern80]

Complete and total bullshit. There are many panels out there right now that will produce a tiny current when you shine a flashlight on them. Yes, the older silicon panels have a definite cutoff point. But that is old tech.

I'm all for a workable solution to our problem. But someone standing on the deck with a flashlight doesn't seem like a great one to me. I believe our solar panel is only a couple of years old, maybe it's newer tech, maybe not. Let's assume it's newer for sake of argument. Considering we are off the grid we still need to figure out how to get consistant amperage out of it.

The overall point trying to made here is that solar, so far, is only reliable if it is tied into the already-more-reliable main power grid. Again there isn't a conspiracy here. I'm all for better energy solutions. But 'better' has many variables. Environmentally friendly is only one of them. And so far when trying to come up with solutions that work as well as fossils, the objective members if the discussion keep getting beat over the head with basic laws of thermodynamics.

 

[Bern80]

What I find interesting here is that the Conservatives, who claim to love liberty and independence, are all stating that the idea of someone producing their own power for their home and fuel for their transportation is a bad idea and can't and shouldn't be done.

No one is claming this. If I can use the same amount of power for the same cost with 'green' tech as I can with fossil tech, I'm all for it. It just doesn't exist yet.

Such dingbat claims such as one solar panel won't power my cabin. Well, a one cylinder Briggs and Stratton engine will not power my automobile. So, by your logic, an ICE is obviously incapable of supplying power for transportation.

No. What is being argued is tha 'green' tech does not have the power generating capability or reliability that fossil fuels have, yet. When it does people will switch, and in droves, because people vote with their pocket books.

 

[chikenwing]

1 HP = roughly .9 kw This will never change ever!

There is the starting point.While DC electric motors are a fairly efficient constant torque machine,horse power is the unit of measure needed to be discoursed.


2000 lb car at 55 mph will require a "FEW" kwh to get you to work,unless you have a robust pv system and sun shine or a huge wind mill and always have wind ,you will be waiting to leave for work on many days. So you plug in and happy burn coal for your trip to work and back.

Are electric cars a good start,sure are,will they meet some of the needs?? sure but not for most.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

 

[GHook93]

EVs can also be charged from home solar panels and wind generators. Thin film solar panels have brought the price down and Obama offers a 30% tax rebate for installing solar panels. Of course, if the CON$ take over Congress that will probably be one of the first things they will kill.
Technology is dynamic, constantly changing, but CON$ervatism is static, stuck in the past.

The issue is previous technological improvements resulted in less work being done for a given task. Cars replaced horses, replacing feed, stabling, excrement cleanup and veterinary care, which was more expensive than gas, and maintenance. Rerigerators replaced ice boxes, replacing the need to have ice delivered, as well as increasing storage size.

The problem with current evironmental technological upgrades is they appear to create MORE work than the original item they are replacing. The benefit is not apparent, but some amorphous concept such as "saving the planet."

It isnt the politics, its the fact you are asking people to do more, with increased technology and cost, than what they had before.

This is a big technological change! With big technological changes comes higher initial costs and growing pains. I have NO DOUBT, that the second generation of electric cars coming out around the 2015 range will be FAR superior to their oil burning counter-parts. I have no doubt that gas burning car owners will be envious of their electric car counter-parts when gas costs $5-$7 a gallon in 2015.

I heard on the news a month or so ago that The Volts pre-sales went very quick, well over-booked (Requires a hefty deposit), requiring extra production and many will probably get refunds. The only way to get a Volt would be by already making this reservation.

The Leaf's presales only took 35 days to sell out! Causing them to up production output estimates.
Nissan Sells Out All-Electric Leaf in 35 Days - Business - The Atlantic

Tesla Model S (with a $5K deposit required) presold their 2010 (which yes was missed) of 1000 (500 in the first week)!
Tesla Takes More Than 500 Model S Reservations in a Week | Business Wire

 

[GHook93]

You miss the pick picture. Why the electric car is so needed.
(1) We need to get off foreign oil and we need to do to it ASAP. We all know drill baby drill is never going to work. It didn't work during Reagan or the Bush and Republican controlled Congress.
(2) Take the Power Away from Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Venezuela, RUSSIA, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and other country that cause problems at the international level and have to be placated simply because they have oil. Take away their black crack and it will be like an economic nuclear bomb!
(3) Engine Efficiency of gas burning engines is around 20%, but the efficiency of Coal, Natural Gas and Nuclear Plants is well into the 90%s (these 3 sources account for about 88-90% of our electricity sources)
(4) Oil will be gone soon! Believe it or not Peak Oil will be here within the next 20-30 years. Yet demand for cars will only increase. As we creep up to Peak Oil prices will skyrocket. It will take a while to get a lot of electric cars on the market. Best we start now, well before Peak Oil and while oil prices are relatively low.

File:Hubbert peak oil plot.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(5) While Drilling at home will never happen. Building more nuclear plans is sure to happen! I think nuclear accounts for 25% of electricity now. It could easily account for more. Hopefully renewable sources like solar and wind can become true players. Hydro makes up I think 8-10%. Try to keep it their. It would be great to see solar and wind get up to 25% (yep that is a T Boone Pickens pipe dream at the moment) get Nuclear up to 40%. That would make relatively renewable energy at 75%. Then have Coal and Natural Gas make up the new 25%!

 

[Old Rocks]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

 

[Old Rocks]

http://www.reveo.com/us/reveofiles/reveofiles/Acrobat Document-zinc.pdf


Very Promising! Zinc-Air Battery Could Hold 300% More Energy Than Lithium-Ion : TreeHugger


For electric vehicles, ReVolt is developing a novel battery structure that resembles that of a fuel cell. Its first batteries use two flat electrodes, which are comparable in size. In the new batteries, one electrode will be a liquid--a zinc slurry. The air electrodes will be in the form of tubes. To generate electricity, the zinc slurry, which is stored in one compartment in the battery, is pumped through the tubes where it's oxidized, forming zinc oxide and releasing electrons. The zinc oxide then accumulates in another compartment in the battery. During recharging, the zinc oxide flows back through the air electrode, where it releases the oxygen, forming zinc again.
This would increase energy density, and also increase the number of cycles before degradation (up to between 2,000 and 10,000 according to the company).

This is very promising, but as usual with news from the lab, we'll have to wait until it hits the market before we can know if it's really the holy grail...

 

[GHook93]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

[ame=http://askville.amazon.com/average-commuting-distance-americans/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2554434]What's the average commuting distance for americans?[/ame]

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

 

[Old Rocks]

You miss the pick picture. Why the electric car is so needed.
(1) We need to get off foreign oil and we need to do to it ASAP. We all know drill baby drill is never going to work. It didn't work during Reagan or the Bush and Republican controlled Congress.
(2) Take the Power Away from Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Venezuela, RUSSIA, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and other country that cause problems at the international level and have to be placated simply because they have oil. Take away their black crack and it will be like an economic nuclear bomb!
(3) Engine Efficiency of gas burning engines is around 20%, but the efficiency of Coal, Natural Gas and Nuclear Plants is well into the 90%s (these 3 sources account for about 88-90% of our electricity sources)
(4) Oil will be gone soon! Believe it or not Peak Oil will be here within the next 20-30 years. Yet demand for cars will only increase. As we creep up to Peak Oil prices will skyrocket. It will take a while to get a lot of electric cars on the market. Best we start now, well before Peak Oil and while oil prices are relatively low.

File:Hubbert peak oil plot.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(5) While Drilling at home will never happen. Building more nuclear plans is sure to happen! I think nuclear accounts for 25% of electricity now. It could easily account for more. Hopefully renewable sources like solar and wind can become true players. Hydro makes up I think 8-10%. Try to keep it their. It would be great to see solar and wind get up to 25% (yep that is a T Boone Pickens pipe dream at the moment) get Nuclear up to 40%. That would make relatively renewable energy at 75%. Then have Coal and Natural Gas make up the new 25%!

In Iowa, wind is providing 14% of their power already. The last time I looked, it was providing 7% of Oregon's power, and the mills are going up daily.

Nuclear is a good option, it's only drawback, if the generation three or newer plants are what is built, is the cost. It is still very costly power. But it does provide a very good base.

Solar can be very spendy at present, however, as soon as supply catches up with demand, the price will take a major drop. In fact, we are seeing some bargains in solar power for residential right now as companies sell off less efficient panels at near a $1 a watt. There are a number of companies that are working with new technologies that will drop solar for residential well below a $1 a watt, and for commercial, megawattage applications, probably less than half of that.

The first article I saw on the Hubert Curve was in the Houston Journal of Oil and Gas. Written by Hubert himself, a reprint of the earlier original article. He predicted the peak of the oil supply in the US within a year. In 1948 he predicted the peak oil for the US which occurred in 1970. The Curve is real, and what it states is that in a very short time, in order to continue to use oil as we have, it will be very expensive both to the customer and the environment. And the supply, even with tar sands and oil shale, will continue to decline.

And, as you pointed out, above all, politically, removing the lever that the oil producers have over oil consuming nations will do the world much good.

 

[Skull Pilot]

At present, at this site, the price for solar panels starts at $1.55 a watt. However, I have seen sales where the price of $1.65 a watt included the panels, inverter, wires, and AC and DC disconnects. The market is such that a bargain hunter who is a reasonable handyman can have a 5 kw system for $10,000 or less.

Quite an assumption.

What do those solar panels weigh?

it's very likely that some pretty extensive structural work will need to be done to any roof to accommodate the weight, wind resistance, snow loading and other factors that are introduced when large flat, heavy panels are put on a roof especially if those panels are installed at an angle greater than that of the roof..

 

[Old Rocks]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

[ame=http://askville.amazon.com/average-commuting-distance-americans/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2554434]What's the average commuting distance for americans?[/ame]

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

Revolt is at present stating that the goal for an automotive battery is one that can power a standard vehicle 500 miles. The Zinc-air has about 3 times the energy density of Lithium-ion, and is much less costly. For a car like the Tesla, which has a higher battery weight ration than most, it should translate to about 750 miles.

Now, the Zinc-air battery is where the mass market will be, because of the abundance of Zinc. However, a Lithium-air battery could have up to 10 time the energy density of Lithium-ion. At a much greater cost than a Zinc-air, but for the Tesla market, that might not be a problem.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Go Electric | Tesla Motors

I'm telling you these guys at tesla put toyota and GM to shame.

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

[ame=http://askville.amazon.com/average-commuting-distance-americans/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2554434]What's the average commuting distance for americans?[/ame]

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

 

[Old Rocks]

At present, at this site, the price for solar panels starts at $1.55 a watt. However, I have seen sales where the price of $1.65 a watt included the panels, inverter, wires, and AC and DC disconnects. The market is such that a bargain hunter who is a reasonable handyman can have a 5 kw system for $10,000 or less.

Quite an assumption.

What do those solar panels weigh?

it's very likely that some pretty extensive structural work will need to be done to any roof to accommodate the weight, wind resistance and other factors that are introduced when large flat, heavy panels are put on a roof especially if those panels are installed at an angle greater than that of the roof..

I cannot tell you what the lightweight panels coming on the market weigh, because whatever I could find on the net would be yesterdays news in the present development market. Here is just one of the products that will be coming on line.

Technology Review: Roll-Up Solar Panels

Xunlight, a startup in Toledo, Ohio, has developed a way to make large, flexible solar panels. It has developed a roll-to-roll manufacturing technique that forms thin-film amorphous silicon solar cells on thin sheets of stainless steel. Each solar module is about one meter wide and five and a half meters long.


Solar sheets: Xunming Deng, cofounder of Xunlight, holds his company’s flexible solar modules.
Credit: Xunlight
As opposed to conventional silicon solar panels, which are bulky and rigid, these lightweight, flexible sheets could easily be integrated into roofs and building facades or on vehicles. Such systems could be more attractive than conventional solar panels and be incorporated more easily into irregular roof designs. They could also be rolled up and carried in a backpack, says the company's cofounder and president, Xunming Deng. "You could take it with you and charge your laptop battery," he says.

 

[Old Rocks]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTKL6oIyiZ0]YouTube - Inside roll-to-roll CIGS thin film manufacturing with Global Solar[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKsOpDSRl50&feature=fvw]YouTube - Thin Film Solar Flat Roof - 5 kW in 2.5 hours.[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrD0VHaMp0&feature=related]YouTube - Lumeta: peel & stick solar - 2.25 kw in 34 minutes[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIXkB5nrEiY&feature=related]YouTube - Nanosolar Utility Panel[/ame]

 

[Big Black Dog]

I think electric cars are shocking - really shocking... If they leak on rainy days you'd be really screwed.

 

[Old Rocks]

Not only that, but the Tesla will be able to have a range of 760 milles per charge when the new Zinc-air batteries become available. And the batteries are expected to last for 2000 to 10,000 recharges.

Revolt, a company already producing small Zinc-air batteries has located it automotive battery headquarters in Portland, Oregon, with the intention of developing the automotive Zinc-air there.

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

[ame=http://askville.amazon.com/average-commuting-distance-americans/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2554434]What's the average commuting distance for americans?[/ame]

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

I see. We have forgotten how to make electiric heaters or air conditioners?

Heat is not a problem with an ICE because they are so inefficient that they throw away 80% or better of the fuels energy as heat. Turn on the air conditioner in your car, and you use more fuel. Same for an EV. Turn on the heat or air conditioner, and you use more electricity.

 

[Old Rocks]

FedTheSpinach has also been fed the other green stuff, i.e. green jobs, green solutions...

And he bought it like it was on sale!

1. Solar panels are used almost entirely to heat swimming pools,...

2. Wind and solar solutions are minimal and intermittent at best, and come with their own problems, very much like FedTheSpinach.

3. I wrote the OP, in part, so one can calculate the costs and problems associated with EV's, and to indicate the reasons why a) folks will not accept the concepts, and b) this administration is done for; also similar to the lifestory of FedTheSpinach!

Based on US Department of Energy, sources of energy used in the US:
39.2% petroleum, 23.3% natural gas, 22.4% coal, 8.3% nuclear, 3.6% biomass, 2.4% hydroelectric, 0.35% geothermal, 0.31% wind, 0.08% solar.

Green math: solar panels to save 50% on your electric bills? Well, if the average electric bill is about $100/mos, the savings is $600/ year! But solar costs 30-40 K, so it takes about 58 years to start saving money. But…solar panels are projected to last 20-30 years. So, savings? Not so much.

How about hybrid cars? About 15 yrs to payback. (19 yrs for the Volt.)


And, the joke in the original article, is that the electricity needed for the EV's is generated by coal-fired plants. Save the environment???

FedTheSpinach= comedy gold!

PoliticalCheek=disinformatrion gold!

This example is for the more expensive pre-thin film solar panels.

New Jersey solar power and solar energy rebates, tax credits, and incentives. Cost breakdown for photovoltaic panels and solar water heaters

EXAMPLE RESIDENTIAL SOLAR INSTALLATION
So let’s give an example of an average 5kW (5000 watt DC) system, which takes care of 89% of your electricity needs of a $100/month bill. Also, let’s assume you’re a good green person and you do the energy audit as you should. As of this writing, you’re going to pay around $7/watt installed cost. What does that mean for this example?
Cost Before Incentives: $35,000 (5000watts x $7/watt) (Don’t panic!)
State Rebate: subtract $8,750
SREC value: subtract $3400/year for 2009 (probably less as years go by)
30% Federal tax credit: subtract $7875 (calculated after State rebate)
Years to Payback: 8-9 years, depending on SREC value.

To apply to my comparison, you cannot use state/federal incentives, as they mitigate the true cost of using the technology. People didnt need goverment incetives to switch from horses to cars, or from iceboxes to refrigerators, they just did.

I see. The roads and highways were not built with government funds?

 

[martybegan]

PoliticalCheek=disinformatrion gold!

This example is for the more expensive pre-thin film solar panels.

New Jersey solar power and solar energy rebates, tax credits, and incentives. Cost breakdown for photovoltaic panels and solar water heaters

EXAMPLE RESIDENTIAL SOLAR INSTALLATION
So let’s give an example of an average 5kW (5000 watt DC) system, which takes care of 89% of your electricity needs of a $100/month bill. Also, let’s assume you’re a good green person and you do the energy audit as you should. As of this writing, you’re going to pay around $7/watt installed cost. What does that mean for this example?
Cost Before Incentives: $35,000 (5000watts x $7/watt) (Don’t panic!)
State Rebate: subtract $8,750
SREC value: subtract $3400/year for 2009 (probably less as years go by)
30% Federal tax credit: subtract $7875 (calculated after State rebate)
Years to Payback: 8-9 years, depending on SREC value.

To apply to my comparison, you cannot use state/federal incentives, as they mitigate the true cost of using the technology. People didnt need goverment incetives to switch from horses to cars, or from iceboxes to refrigerators, they just did.

I see. The roads and highways were not built with government funds?

Strawman argument, Since EV's will use the same roads as the older cars. And the roads came AFTER people all were buying cars. The horse to car switch happened well before the interstate highway system came about.

If you want to complain about something blame the highways (and air travel) for the decline of cross country rail.

 

[martybegan]

760 really? I heard 300. The average daily commute is 30 miles (15 miles a way). At 30 miles a day, you would need to power up every 25 days. Even at the 300 level you would need to power up every 10 days. Say you have a long commuter 100 miles a day. You would have to power up only once a week (every 3 days for the 300 level).

What's the average commuting distance for americans?

At 760 you can almost make from Chicago to New York on one charge (796 miles). 3 charges for 300 miles. But you definitely can't make that on one tank of gas.

WikiAnswers - What is the distance in miles between New York and Chicago

What happens when you have to turn on the heat or a/c?

I guess an electric car works just fine if it never gets too cold or too hot.

I see. We have forgotten how to make electiric heaters or air conditioners?

Heat is not a problem with an ICE because they are so inefficient that they throw away 80% or better of the fuels energy as heat. Turn on the air conditioner in your car, and you use more fuel. Same for an EV. Turn on the heat or air conditioner, and you use more electricity.

I think the point is that every extra thing you do cuts down on the batteries charge, and therefore the range of the vehicle. Items you take for granted in a ICE car that can run off the alternator, lights, radio, kids TV, AC (heat too, now that you cant use engine waste heat) will run down the charge. Not a deal breaker I think, but would have to be taken into account in your mileage calculations.