The Logical, Rational, and Reasonable Debate About Religion: No Insults Allowed Threa

[JBeukema]

Sometimes I wish I believed in God.

We had this discussion before, and you went awol...

I look for reasons to, but never come up with any.

and?

I need logical reasons.

What you need is to work on making your stay on earth as fulfilling and enjoyable as possible

 

[Coloradomtnman]

My goodness Colorado, Of course your love is real, that is my point. And I'm sure so is theirs. Of course.

Phew... I'm glad you said so cause I was about to get really angry (and even more bitter).

And I knew you would agree with me. Thus my point counters your assertion that you will not believe in anything you can't prove scientifically.

Well, I will concede that point. But on the condition that its commonly experiential. And it has been proven scientifically. But I get your meaning.

If you can't prove it, as you mention, then it cannot be true.

Now hold on right there. I didn't say if you can't prove it, it can't be true. What I said is, if you can't prove it, then I won't believe it. I believe in love because I can't deny it. Its there. I have no choice. It wouldn't make sense to not believe in love. It would be like denying the sky is blue or the sun rises in the East (which can be doubted, but there's no real point to that so I'll skip it).

I am simply highlighting a contradiction. I am certainly not challenging between you and your loved ones. I have a deep capacity to love which is what compells such an argument by those who challenge the notion of a higher level of existence of life that so many discount because they don't understand it. Love involves that higher existence.

Not for me it isn't. For me, love is what is best in human beings. I'm a humanist and part of what that means is that I think human beings are unique of all living things because we can reason, laugh (though I just found out that primates laugh when tickled so maybe I should say, find things funny), we can think abstractly, and we can control our own destinies (or at least, we should). Human beings aren't the only living things that love, my cats, my best dog friend Timber loves me, elephants, etc. But human beings are the only things that love that can know what the power of love is and conversely, what the power of hate is. To hate is what is worst in human beings. To love, as Jesus, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, MLK, etc. is what is best. There's no need for God, and that cheapens it. When human beings can love eachother, without some higher power, in a Universe as lifeless, empty, and hostile as this one, that is truly beautiful.

It's most certainly the catalyst at the very least to beginning to understand these things.

My belief in God comes from very real experiences throughout my life which could not be explained and was everything but coincidental. Especially after my parents died. I always had an affinity to this realm of thought, to begin with, from a very young child. I simply did not understand it, nor bothered trying until I got older and began to put the pieces together. I should have been dead many times but profound things happened that were nothing less than a miracle and statistically off the charts in terms of happening by chance.

My non-belief in God comes from very real experiences I've had throughout my life as well. And how those experiences tie with what I have learned and read. And how none of that aligns with any description of God of any organized religion and I've studied all the big ones and a few of the little ones.

Here's where you argument loses something for me:

I should have been dead many times but profound things happened that were nothing less than a miracle and statistically off the charts in terms of happening by chance.

If God already has planned everything from the beginning, why would there be close calls? To prove to you that He exists? Well, I'm sorry but nearly dying and surviving isn't a miracle, or I should say, it doesn't HAVE TO be a miracle. It can be coincidence. Coincidence is a tricky idea. Some religious people think that if God hypothetically did not exist as non-believers claim, then it's one helluva coincidence that all "THIS" is here now and the chances of that happening are slim to none. Well, that's if you look at it from a human point of view. I would say, the chances are slim to none, but there are lots of planets out there, and lots of chances, so one of those chances succeeding isn't makes perfect sense. Same goes for the sperm that fertilized the egg which became "you".

Some things in life have to be experienced to understand.

Very true.

When it happens, you'll know what I am talking about, and then perhaps you might begin to understand what love really is and why we love to begin with, beyond any clinical, or scientifically tangible definition. And its a beautiful thing, Colorado.

I know what love really is, thank you, and why. And that it can be studied clinically, scientifically, and the evidence which supports that love exists IS tangible doesn't make it any less valid. And it is still beautiful.

The religious thing hasn't happened yet.

You don't have to pray conventionally. You don't have to attend mass, or walk the straight line. There are no man made rules that open the gates of heaven. Only what you feel in your heart, and the goodness and love that comes out once you open that door.

Anne Marie

And were I ever to become religious, I would most likely not be a member of an organized religion. I see too much hypocrisy among them and too much prejudice and self-righteousness. I am spiritual, you might find surprising, and I would've too, 10 years ago. But I don't mean spiritual in a supernatural sense of the word, but in the "human spirit" sort of way. And I do my best to remain open to experiences and the meaning of those experiences.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

We had this discussion before, and you went awol...

Not true. I answered the question as a matter of fact. It had to do with living in an anthropocentric Universe for a reason and an afterlife to look forward to. Wouldn't that be nice?

and?

And? I didn't find any. I already stated that.

What you need is to work on making your stay on earth as fulfilling and enjoyable as possible

Thanks for telling me what I need to do and what I need to work on, o' Prophet. I was already in the process of doing those things, but it feels good to have someone tell me.

 

[JBeukema]

Actually, you didn't respond. You vanished. I asked where you'd gone, but you never came back. Your last post in that thread basically consisted of wallowing in nihilistic depression and wishing you were stupid and happy.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Like I said earlier, God is a hard item to sell because he is not somebody you can physically see, touch, or openly question. I have been where you are and I understand your position. I don't agree with it but your opinion is just as valid as mine. We just see things differently. I believe in God. I don't stand on the street corner and brow beat people with my beliefs. I do, however, voice my opinion BUT my opinion is no more valid than your opinion. Your lack of belief is not threatening to me. Some christians come completely unglued if you look them in the eye and tell them what they believe is a crock of crap. I don't think those type of christians are as tolerant as they should be. Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.

Well, that is a good attitude, BBD. I respect that you can see things that way.

I don't blame Christians, or anyone for that matter, for getting angry if I were to look them in the eye and say "What you believe is a crock of crap!" That's just rude. And I'm guilty of doing it and guilty of wondering why they got so angry when I did it (must be because they're so insecure in their beliefs! - hey, naivete, what can I say?).

And I wouldn't mind Christians believing anything they wanted to so long as they didn't harm people. And for the most part that is the case. But the judgement, the self-righteousness that is naturally a part of monotheism (and you even demonstrated it yourself:

Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.

), the discrimination against those who do not fit in with their world view (i.e. homosexuals and atheists, or people of different religious faiths) is something that profoundly bothers me.

I think we are all one. Not in a weird, new-age, crystal power sense, but in a very real, scientifically logical sense. We are all literally star dust. What I see in others, I see in me. I'm sick of hearing how liberals aren't tolerant because they don't tolerate Christians. That is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization. Liberals accept all religious faiths. We don't tolerate intolerance which comes with many organized religions. We don't tolerate the intolerance of homosexuals, an entire group of people who are not accurately characterized when described as sick and perverted, or equated with pedophiles or criminals.

Just like your statement above: Christains aren't perfect. Just forgiven. Why are you forgiven when I have no choice but not to believe? God doesn't forgive me for being unable to choose to believe that his son died, was resurrected and went to Heaven where He is a big VIP? I'm not directing this as an insult at you or in a personal way, but I see it as a side-effect of monotheism: we are God's chosen ones and everybody, quite literally, be damned.

And that's another reason why I don't subscribe to the belief. Cause I see flaws in it, and if it is the one, true way then I don't see why there would be any flaws in it at all.

 

[JBeukema]

Colo, how do you expect t to ever have a reasonable or logical discussion with someone who already admitted that intelligence, reason, logic, and common sense have nothing to do with his thought processes? Dog has admitted that he believes without reason, based wholly on a lack of reason, analysis, or critical thinking.


All you're doing is playing office PC support class; you're not saying anything meaningful.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Colo, how do you expect t to ever have a reasonable or logical discussion with someone who already admitted that intelligence, reason, logic, and common sense have nothing to do with his thought processes? Dog has admitted that he believes without reason, based wholly on a lack of reason, analysis, or critical thinking.


All you're doing is playing office PC support class; you're not saying anything meaningful.

Hey, JB, read the title of the thread, realize that your posts are insulting, and then have the decency to either stay off the thread, remain respectful, or start your own: The I'm Going To Insult You When You Post On My Thread Thread.

 

[RodISHI]

More like I see you reaching out to try to understand, sometimes in anger and some time not. Just wanted to try to help. If I choose to debate someone on any issue you'll know it.

Sometimes I wish I believed in God. I look for reasons to, but never come up with any. Good reasons, sound reasons, that is. Sure, there are emotional reasons, but I need physical evidence. I need logical reasons.

That bit of hope is where it starts.

If the Universe was created by a supreme being solely for human beings, and human beings were created by that higher power for a reason, and everything was anthropocentric and life had meaning, that would be a huge comfort for me. But if that is so, why does this Creator hide?

To my knowledge God is not hidden when we seek with our whole heart. A spirit is not something that the carnal can see.

Why does it seem that the Universe is a big, cold (or extremely hot), empty, hostile place and human beings just barely survive on one incredibly, unbelievably small blue speck?
Why does it seem that life isn't fair, very pleasant (there are great moments, but lots of not great ones, too) where people suffer and die horrible everyday?

The human egg and sperm may feel the same way.

Why are human beings so similar to primates genetically and behaviorally?

Maybe God needed a good chuckle as human run around trying to figure it all out. Surely since we are created in God image we can appreciate a good laugh.

Why are there so many different religions if only one of them is the true one?

The answer is in who created all the religions?

Why, if God is so loving and merciful, does he insist on sending people to Hell when those people, like me, can't just choose to believe. Avoiding a mythical punishment is not incentive enough for me to TRULY believe. Right?

I can understand this one fully as a parent. When my children walk away from me it is of their own accord. Like I told you hell is separation from God. If you do not accept that definition then there is nothing more I can say on the matter.

Isn't that called Fire Insurance or After-Life Insurance?

No. It is being born of the spirit.

Why have there been so many people killed and tortured because of religion?

The same reason animals are cruel to one another when one seems weak. Someone always seems to want to rule over another. Again, the carnal.

Why do religious people discriminate and judge those who don't fit in with their dogma i.e. homosexuals? I know homosexuals and they're just like everybody else except in one way: they are sexually attracted to those of the same sex. That's it!

You'll have to go check with religious people for your answer.

As a kid I never believed in God. I grew up in SWern Idaho which is the Bible belt of the West. I was told I'd burn in Hell if I didn't believe. I was discriminated against by parents who didn't want their children to play with me or their daughters dating me (one Mormon girl was sent off to live with her grandparents because her parents thought I would turn her into a devil worshipper). I was sent to church for years, with my grandparents, my parents were Catholics for a while, and even my friends attended church. I was regarded with disdain or without comprehension or as untrustworthy because how could I have morals if I didn't believe in God?

Needless to say, I'm a little bitter. I don't appreciate the self-righteousness, the judgementalism, the arbitrary rules, the pushiness of evangelicals, nor the discrimination of people who aren't Christian. I've actually got a lot better about it. I understand why people have faith. I have faith now, because of people like them, its just my faith isn't in a religious sense, but in humanity. I have faith in myself. I have to believe something, but I can believe in humankind (as difficult as it is). I have hope that we can avoid killing ourselves off and take the reigns of our own racial destiny. Not much, but some.

Don't know what to tell you. These are things you'll have to work through on your own.

If along this journey, God appears for me in whatever way, then I'll have that too. But until He does, I won't believe in something just because I want to, but because I have no choice.

Sounds like you have already made up your mind.

 

[JBeukema]

Hey, JB, read the title of the thread, realize that your posts are insulting, and then have the decency to either stay off the thread, remain respectful, or start your own: The I'm Going To Insult You When You Post On My Thread Thread.

I have insulted noone. I have demanded that someone cite evidence to defend their assertions and asked how you expect a logical discussion with someone who by his own admission, does not base his assertions in logic. Now you're upset because you want desperately to delude yourself ands I continue to demand evidence.

To my knowledge God is not hidden when we seek with our whole heart. A spirit is not something that the carnal can see.

-Demonstrate that 'spirit' exists
-demonstrate that worldy beings cannot see it

The human egg and sperm may feel the same way.

There is no brain in either, and no evidence to support any assertions that they 'think' anything.

The answer is in who created all the religions?

Man.

 

[iagainsti]

I think this might be a good place to pose a few questions to the religious people who are participating in this discussion:

So, for Christians, it's a given that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and died for their sins (meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity (although there are some Biblical scholars who believe that the Bible actually teaches that nonbelievers will be completely destroyed, but that's a whole other discussion). Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

It is also a given that God created man in his own image, and loves and takes a special interest in each and every one of the people he created. God's love for man is emphasized throughout Christianity.

Now, the word of God is revealed to us through the Bible. As God no longer makes his presence known the way he did in Biblical days, the Bible is the only direct communication we have from God. It is his word, written by him through man, and contains all the information we need in order to know what it takes to be saved. (Again, please correct me if any of this is wrong)

Here are some facts about the Bible and about the world today, from my understanding: the Bible was written (in installments) about two millenia ago, in a particular language (Hebrew) to a particular group of people. There is a story in the Bible about the Tower of Babel, in which God punishes mankind for trying to build a tower tall enough to reach Heaven by scattering them across the earth and splitting their languages. So, according to the Bible, the reason that we have about 7,000 different languages spoken on the planet today is because God made it so as a punishment. Because the Bible must be translated into so many different languages from its original Hebrew, and since the Hebrew language has changed and evolved so much in the last two thousand years, as all languages do, many things in the Bible are lost, confused, or the meaning changed in translation.

So, these are the questions I have for you:

God created us all and loves us all immensely. Any of us who do not believe in him will be doomed to suffer for all of eternity. Is there a way to reconcile those two ideas? Is eternal horrendous suffering a punishment that is fitting of the crime of not believing in the existence of God? Why would a loving God base the salvation of his creations on their belief in him, rather than their character or morality or some other criteria?

Also: is it fair that since the punishment for nonbelief is eternal torment, God made it so difficult to come to believe in him? Would he not be morally obligated to make his existence painfully obvious to each and every one of us, if the consequences for not believing in him are so severe?

I am not asking these questions as some sort of challenge; these are legitimate questions I have about Christianity and they are some of the main reasons why I do not believe. My mind is open to the existence of a higher power...I just don't believe that the higher power in question is the one I desrcribed above. But my mind isn't even completely closed to THAT possibility, since I acknowledge it's possible that there are things I don't fully understand...which is why I'm posing these questions, in hopes that someone can give me a good explanation for the discrepancies I feel I'm seeing here.

And, again, if I am wrong in any of those above assertions, please correct me. If I'm going to believe or disbelieve in something, I want to know the absolute truth about that something first.

 

[JBeukema]

God created us all and loves us all immensely.

Not all. The Lord hated Esau from before he was born...

 

[Tinktink]

You should distinquish your comments between religious belief or just belief. I don't believe in God, and I certainly don't believe it is because it is a trend. What I don't understand is how you can call someones lack of belief as doubts or fears. Unless you are projecting yours on them. Just because someone doesn't share your faith in your God, doesn't mean they are doubtful or fearful to admit they believe in God. It is quite possible they simply don't.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on what I was trying to say. I do that alot and my wife will certainly agree with that... No, I have no doubts and fears about my belief in God. I fully understand how some people will not believe simply because God is not somebody they can call up on the phone, or touch, or see on the nightly news. Nobody alive today has ever seen God, or Jesus and because of that, it's pretty hard to sell somebody on the fact that there is a God. That is why faith is so important in any religion and not just mine. You have to have faith that God exists or you will never believe. I read you wrong when I mentioned doubts and fears concerning God and religion in general. Lots of people have doubts and fears in that area. If I mislabeled you, I am sorry. Nobody is born with a natural belief in God or any religion. Generally there is some event in their lives that tends to turn people towards church, God, a particular religion, etc. Possibly for you that event has not yet occurred. You may live your whole life and never have that experience or develope a belief in God. That's entirely your right and I don't think anybody would ever deny you that right. I don't "blindly" believe in God. There was a time in my life that I thought it was all pretty bogus too. Been there and experienced that. I will say that I am a happier person with God in my life.

Thanks for the clarity, and no need to apologize. The one thing that I find hard when it comes to discussing religion with folks, is that although they want to be understood, often then give little to folks who don't think as they do being understood. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have been told, that it isn't that I don't believe in God, it is that I haven't accepted god. Or they will pray for me. Or if I don't believe I am missing out. Or because I don't accept god, I will spend eternity in hell.

What I don't understand is why they can't accept that I have had beautiful and wonderful unexplained experiences in my life, and don't feel I have to attribute them to God. I don't have to pray to God to hope for better things. I can' just hope, and through that hope find them. I don't have to believe in God, to live in goodness, with kindness and charity. I don't have to worship God to value life, love and exsistence.

Personally, I have no problem with folks that find so much in God at all. For if it gives them comfort, peace and purpose then, their faith is important. As I find in my own personal faith without God. What I do have a problem with is folks believing that if I don't believe, I am not whole.

 

[Avatar4321]

The title says it all, so, please refrain from name calling, disrespect, or insults of any kind.

I hope this can be accomplished. Some people have problems doing it.

Also, since this debate is framed as logical and rational, please understand that supporting your arguments with anecdotal evidence is not reasonable, convincing, or conclusive and will and should just be ignored.

So just ignore real evidence that doesnt fit within your definition of reasonable/rational. So if someone literally sees God and says so their witness should be dismissed as unreasonable?

It seems that you and I have very different definitions of reasonable and rational. I would expect it to be both very reasonable and rational for someone who has seen God to believe in Him. In fact, I would find it quite Irrational and unreasonable to dismiss such witnesses outright. In fact, I think its rather foolish to ignore any evidence outright.

Let me just kick it off with: There is no physical evidence of God.

None at all, just the universe around you. Your body. Your mind. Countless eye witnesses. Real miracles. The Bible. The Book of Mormon. Countless other books that physically exist and testify of the reality of God.

Who are you to declare these evidences either dont exist or arent valid?

Intelligent Design has been debunked.

Is that so? someone proved that God didn't create the world? When did this happen?

The only proof that supports the Bible is historical.

The proof is in the principles it teaches. The proof is in the Power of the Holy Spirit to teach the truth of all things. The proof is the change it brings into peoples lives as they exercise faith in Christ and use the atonement to have their very nature changed.

And since, if He exists, He bestowed to me the ability to think, to make logical conclusions, to be rational, to reason, and free will with which to choose, then, honestly, why would I choose (if one can claim that it IS a choice) to believe in Him when there is nothing conclusive to support His existence?

Because as a rational logical person you would realize that simply because you havent found anything you deem conclusive yet doesn't mean that others havent and that you should stop looking. Especially when those who do know God know Him because they have experimented on His words. They have tested the claims and learned for themselves.

We can start experimenting by hypothesizing. If there is a God, let's start by assuming it's possible to know that there is a God. Because the first step in learning is accepting that it's possible to learn. If we presume there is no way to know, then there will be no way test our hypothesis.

If there was a way to know whether there was a God, would you want to know how? Would you test out the theory?

I think that's the first step to knowing whether there is a God. At least it is from personal experience. I didn't always know God existed. I doubted. I came to a point in my life where I wanted to know if God was really there. If there was a God I wanted to live the life He wanted for me when He created me. If there wasnt a God I wanted to live the life I determined to be good.

But like I said, I didn't know. I wasnt even sure I believed. I was skeptical. I realized that if there was a God and if was powerful enough to create the world, He would have the power to make Himself known to me. So I decided that I would try to study the scriptures and doctrines out there. I would study different religions, and I have studied different religions. And that if God was with any of them He would reveal it.

I decided to try prayer. Sincere prayer. If there was a God, I figured He would answer somehow. If there wasn't, then its not going to hurt to talk to noone. Worst case scenario my thoughts might be alittle more organized. What did I lose by sincerely praying if there wasnt a God? Absolutely nothing. What did I gain if there was? The truth. I told the Lord I would do anything to know. I would follow Him if I learned.

The answer didn't come immediately. In fact, there were a number of times the Spirit spoke to me and I didnt recognize Him. I wasn't ready too. I didn't prepare myself. But the moment I did, my life was changed forever. From that second, I had no doubt there was a God. How could I deny the power, the love, the glory of God as it hits me with such force? Who am i to ignore the whispers of the Spirit answering my requestions?

I can tell you, I could have seen the most persuasive argument. I could have seen all the archaelogical/scientific evidence for God and it wouldnt have changed my life. Even if I did start to believe by that. But Five minutes being taught by the Holy Spirit has changed me more than everything Ive ever learned in school.

And the beauty of it all is that, what happened to me can happen to everyone. God isnt going to hide from someone who is seeking Him. That's not how He works. He gives to all liberally.

You can call me names. You can dismiss my words. But I know that God lives from personal experience. I know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of hte World because He revealed it to me. I know the Bible is true because I asked Him and He answered. You can claim these are just subjective experiences. Yet everyone Ive ever seen who actually experiments on the Word, learns it too. Even when its the exact opposite of what they want to be.

We can experiment on every principle of the Gospel. And by experimenting we can learn the truth of the principles.

For examples, how can we know that the events and principles the scriptures teach us are true? The scriptures themselves provide a way for us to know whether they are true. Ill cite a few:

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Luke 11:9-10)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:5-6)

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:3-5)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you (John 14:26)

I think I've probably cited enough. Clear instructions how to know. What is sad is that so few people actually follow them. Even those who proclaim to have faith rarely take faith to inquire of the Lord. Ive never understood why. It always seemed like such an simple concept. But then I think we have more difficulty with simple concepts than complex ones. Those are usually the ones we rarely think about and either accept or reject automatically.

This is probably not what you were looking for when you started the thread. I hadnt originally intended to write that much. I hadnt intended to cite any scriptures either. But I dont see anything unreasonable about exercising faith or at least seeking to know if God is real. I see nothing to be lost in experimenting on the Word and nothing to gain by refusing to.

 

[Al Gunn]

Avatar, where does it say in the bible that god is an alien from another planet of other aliens? My point being, how can you claim the bible is true if you're not even following it properly yourself?

btw, most of your quotes are just drivel, like this one;"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." You're back to praying and self-hypnosis. It's almost schizophrenic to convince yourself that someone invisible is talking to you.

 

[Newby]

You asked questions and I answered them. You can accept those or not. I have no need to debate you on this issue.

Yes, I understand that you have no need to debate me on this issue, but you must have at least wanted to because you posted on this thread and responded to my posts.

I don't accept unsupported answers from the Bible. If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or not, that's great and I'm totally open to that, but this thread is meant to conduct a debate using logic, critical analysis, and rational reasoning. Quoting the Bible is fine, but its not been accepted as factually true so please refrain from admitting it as supporting evidence unless you can support with evidence that the Bible is true. That's why your argument, at least in this thread, isn't viable.

CMM strikes again.

As you very well know, there is no physical, logical proof in the sphere of the physical world that God exists, so you are asking for something which can't be given or proven to begin with. What you can't understand is how people can believe in something where there is no physical/logical proof to show you that it exists. You believe in the human capacity to completely understand everything in the universe. I can't understand how you can put your faith in that? Do you really believe that humans understand everything there is to know about the universe and space? To me that's as much of a leap of faith as those who believe in God, maybe even moreso. But, do carry on.

 

[Newby]

Colo, how do you expect t to ever have a reasonable or logical discussion with someone who already admitted that intelligence, reason, logic, and common sense have nothing to do with his thought processes? Dog has admitted that he believes without reason, based wholly on a lack of reason, analysis, or critical thinking.


All you're doing is playing office PC support class; you're not saying anything meaningful.

Yeah, you guys are sooooo much smarter than those who believe in God. Is that why you guys start thread after thread about religion? Who's more hung up on it around here? I haven't seen two people more hung up on religion than you and CMM. Why do you even care what others believe, why is it any of your business? Why do you feel the contant need to put people down who do believe? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

CMM strikes again.

As you very well know, there is no physical, logical proof in the sphere of the physical world that God exists, so you are asking for something which can't be given or proven to begin with. What you can't understand is how people can believe in something where there is no physical/logical proof to show you that it exists. You believe in the human capacity to completely understand everything in the universe. I can't understand how you can put your faith in that? Do you really believe that humans understand everything there is to know about the universe and space? To me that's as much of a leap of faith as those who believe in God, maybe even moreso. But, do carry on.

Hey, Newby. I was wondering when you'd show up.

I just want to clear up your misunderstanding of my position (bolded above):

I don't believe human beings have the capacity to or understand the Universe completely. I think that human beings never will. Read Nieztche's "Beyond Good and Evil" to understand why I think that. So I don't dogmatically believe in human understanding or definitions for the Universe. Let me just put it to you this way: I look up and I see the sky is blue. I don't believe it's blue because someone told me it is. I don't believe it's blue because I read that it is. I believe its blue because when I look up I can't help BUT believe it's blue.

So, I look around and I don't see God. I don't believe in God because someone told me not to (in fact I've only been told TO believe in God). I don't believe in God because I read that I shouldn't (In fact, most of everything I've ever read dealing with religion told me TO believe in God). The reason I don't believe in God is because when I look around, I can't help but NOT to believe in God. It isn't a choice.

 

[Newby]

CMM strikes again.

As you very well know, there is no physical, logical proof in the sphere of the physical world that God exists, so you are asking for something which can't be given or proven to begin with. What you can't understand is how people can believe in something where there is no physical/logical proof to show you that it exists. You believe in the human capacity to completely understand everything in the universe. I can't understand how you can put your faith in that? Do you really believe that humans understand everything there is to know about the universe and space? To me that's as much of a leap of faith as those who believe in God, maybe even moreso. But, do carry on.

Hey, Newby. I was wondering when you'd show up.

I just want to clear up your misunderstanding of my position (bolded above):

I don't believe human beings have the capacity to or understand the Universe completely. I think that human beings never will. Read Nieztche's "Beyond Good and Evil" to understand why I think that. So I don't dogmatically believe in human understanding or definitions for the Universe. Let me just put it to you this way: I look up and I see the sky is blue. I don't believe it's blue because someone told me it is. I don't believe it's blue because I read that it is. I believe its blue because when I look up I can't help BUT believe it's blue.

So, I look around and I don't see God. I don't believe in God because someone told me not to (in fact I've only been told TO believe in God). I don't believe in God because I read that I shouldn't (In fact, most of everything I've ever read dealing with religion told me TO believe in God). The reason I don't believe in God is because when I look around, I can't help but NOT to believe in God. It isn't a choice.

But your entire argument is based on human reasoning, logic, and knowledge. Therefore, since you've admitted that there is a limit to that reasoning, logic and knowledge, you can't simply dismiss the possibility of a higher being based on that criteria alone either. Maybe there is another plane of existance that we are completely unaware of and unable to experience or 'prove' with our logic, our science, or our understanding of the universe?

Humans have defined the sky to be 'blue'. It's a label we gave to a color, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily blue, it's an agreement, for the necessity of society so that we can all understand references to a color called 'blue'. As someone mentioned, you believe in other intangible things, such as love, what logic and reasoning do you ascribe too to prove that love exists? What is the purpose of love, from where does it originate. Animals are given survival instincts, yet man will sacrifice survival to save someone that he 'loves', which goes against all science would tell you about instincts. How do you explain that? Why are humans unique in that?

Do you see humans as different from animals? Or do you see us as just another animal?

 

[Al Gunn]

But your entire argument is based on human reasoning, logic, and knowledge. Therefore, since you've admitted that there is a limit to that reasoning, logic and knowledge, you can't simply dismiss the possibility of a higher being based on that criteria alone either. Maybe there is another plane of existance that we are completely unaware of and unable to experience or 'prove' with our logic, our science, or our understanding of the universe?

Humans have defined the sky to be 'blue'. It's a label we gave to a color, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily blue, it's an agreement, for the necessity of society so that we can all understand references to a color called 'blue'. As someone mentioned, you believe in other intangible things, such as love, what logic and reasoning do you ascribe too to prove that love exists? What is the purpose of love, from where does it originate. Animals are given survival instincts, yet man will sacrifice survival to save someone that he 'loves', which goes against all science would tell you about instincts. How do you explain that? Why are humans unique in that?

Do you see humans as different from animals? Or do you see us as just another animal?

So the only logical belief system is agnostics, those who don't believe but are leaving the door slightly open in case you prove it to be.

Dude, if the sky in your world isn't blue, what planet are you on?

We are just another animal who's deluded himself into thinking that he's god's chosen species.

 

[Newby]

But your entire argument is based on human reasoning, logic, and knowledge. Therefore, since you've admitted that there is a limit to that reasoning, logic and knowledge, you can't simply dismiss the possibility of a higher being based on that criteria alone either. Maybe there is another plane of existance that we are completely unaware of and unable to experience or 'prove' with our logic, our science, or our understanding of the universe?

Humans have defined the sky to be 'blue'. It's a label we gave to a color, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily blue, it's an agreement, for the necessity of society so that we can all understand references to a color called 'blue'. As someone mentioned, you believe in other intangible things, such as love, what logic and reasoning do you ascribe too to prove that love exists? What is the purpose of love, from where does it originate. Animals are given survival instincts, yet man will sacrifice survival to save someone that he 'loves', which goes against all science would tell you about instincts. How do you explain that? Why are humans unique in that?

Do you see humans as different from animals? Or do you see us as just another animal?

So the only logical belief system is agnostics, those who don't believe but are leaving the door slightly open in case you prove it to be.

Dude, if the sky in your world isn't blue, what planet are you on?

We are just another animal who's deluded himself into thinking that he's god's chosen species.

Who says that humans will ever have the capacity to prove such a thing? Doesn't mean that it's not there just because we don't have the intellectual capacity to prove that it is. To put all of your 'faith' in human reasoning and/or intellectual abilities in reference to understanding the universe is just as blind as you think believing in God is.

Um, the sky reference was being a bit sarcastic. Maybe I'm losing my touch.

So, how do explain the distinct intellectual differences between humans and other animials? Why are we unique?