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My goodness Colorado, Of course your love is real, that is my point. And I'm sure so is theirs. Of course.
And I knew you would agree with me. Thus my point counters your assertion that you will not believe in anything you can't prove scientifically.
If you can't prove it, as you mention, then it cannot be true.
I am simply highlighting a contradiction. I am certainly not challenging between you and your loved ones. I have a deep capacity to love which is what compells such an argument by those who challenge the notion of a higher level of existence of life that so many discount because they don't understand it. Love involves that higher existence.
It's most certainly the catalyst at the very least to beginning to understand these things.
My belief in God comes from very real experiences throughout my life which could not be explained and was everything but coincidental. Especially after my parents died. I always had an affinity to this realm of thought, to begin with, from a very young child. I simply did not understand it, nor bothered trying until I got older and began to put the pieces together. I should have been dead many times but profound things happened that were nothing less than a miracle and statistically off the charts in terms of happening by chance.
I should have been dead many times but profound things happened that were nothing less than a miracle and statistically off the charts in terms of happening by chance.
Some things in life have to be experienced to understand.
When it happens, you'll know what I am talking about, and then perhaps you might begin to understand what love really is and why we love to begin with, beyond any clinical, or scientifically tangible definition. And its a beautiful thing, Colorado.
You don't have to pray conventionally. You don't have to attend mass, or walk the straight line. There are no man made rules that open the gates of heaven. Only what you feel in your heart, and the goodness and love that comes out once you open that door.
Anne Marie
We had this discussion before, and you went awol...
and?
What you need is to work on making your stay on earth as fulfilling and enjoyable as possible
Like I said earlier, God is a hard item to sell because he is not somebody you can physically see, touch, or openly question. I have been where you are and I understand your position. I don't agree with it but your opinion is just as valid as mine. We just see things differently. I believe in God. I don't stand on the street corner and brow beat people with my beliefs. I do, however, voice my opinion BUT my opinion is no more valid than your opinion. Your lack of belief is not threatening to me. Some christians come completely unglued if you look them in the eye and tell them what they believe is a crock of crap. I don't think those type of christians are as tolerant as they should be. Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.
), the discrimination against those who do not fit in with their world view (i.e. homosexuals and atheists, or people of different religious faiths) is something that profoundly bothers me.Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.
Colo, how do you expect t to ever have a reasonable or logical discussion with someone who already admitted that intelligence, reason, logic, and common sense have nothing to do with his thought processes? Dog has admitted that he believes without reason, based wholly on a lack of reason, analysis, or critical thinking.
All you're doing is playing office PC support class; you're not saying anything meaningful.
That bit of hope is where it starts.More like I see you reaching out to try to understand, sometimes in anger and some time not. Just wanted to try to help. If I choose to debate someone on any issue you'll know it.
Sometimes I wish I believed in God. I look for reasons to, but never come up with any. Good reasons, sound reasons, that is. Sure, there are emotional reasons, but I need physical evidence. I need logical reasons.
To my knowledge God is not hidden when we seek with our whole heart. A spirit is not something that the carnal can see.If the Universe was created by a supreme being solely for human beings, and human beings were created by that higher power for a reason, and everything was anthropocentric and life had meaning, that would be a huge comfort for me. But if that is so, why does this Creator hide?
The human egg and sperm may feel the same way.Why does it seem that the Universe is a big, cold (or extremely hot), empty, hostile place and human beings just barely survive on one incredibly, unbelievably small blue speck?
Why does it seem that life isn't fair, very pleasant (there are great moments, but lots of not great ones, too) where people suffer and die horrible everyday?
Maybe God needed a good chuckle as human run around trying to figure it all out. Surely since we are created in God image we can appreciate a good laugh.Why are human beings so similar to primates genetically and behaviorally?
The answer is in who created all the religions?Why are there so many different religions if only one of them is the true one?
I can understand this one fully as a parent. When my children walk away from me it is of their own accord. Like I told you hell is separation from God. If you do not accept that definition then there is nothing more I can say on the matter.Why, if God is so loving and merciful, does he insist on sending people to Hell when those people, like me, can't just choose to believe. Avoiding a mythical punishment is not incentive enough for me to TRULY believe. Right?
No. It is being born of the spirit.Isn't that called Fire Insurance or After-Life Insurance?
The same reason animals are cruel to one another when one seems weak. Someone always seems to want to rule over another. Again, the carnal.Why have there been so many people killed and tortured because of religion?
You'll have to go check with religious people for your answer.Why do religious people discriminate and judge those who don't fit in with their dogma i.e. homosexuals? I know homosexuals and they're just like everybody else except in one way: they are sexually attracted to those of the same sex. That's it!
Don't know what to tell you. These are things you'll have to work through on your own.As a kid I never believed in God. I grew up in SWern Idaho which is the Bible belt of the West. I was told I'd burn in Hell if I didn't believe. I was discriminated against by parents who didn't want their children to play with me or their daughters dating me (one Mormon girl was sent off to live with her grandparents because her parents thought I would turn her into a devil worshipper). I was sent to church for years, with my grandparents, my parents were Catholics for a while, and even my friends attended church. I was regarded with disdain or without comprehension or as untrustworthy because how could I have morals if I didn't believe in God?
Needless to say, I'm a little bitter. I don't appreciate the self-righteousness, the judgementalism, the arbitrary rules, the pushiness of evangelicals, nor the discrimination of people who aren't Christian. I've actually got a lot better about it. I understand why people have faith. I have faith now, because of people like them, its just my faith isn't in a religious sense, but in humanity. I have faith in myself. I have to believe something, but I can believe in humankind (as difficult as it is). I have hope that we can avoid killing ourselves off and take the reigns of our own racial destiny. Not much, but some.
Sounds like you have already made up your mind.If along this journey, God appears for me in whatever way, then I'll have that too. But until He does, I won't believe in something just because I want to, but because I have no choice.
Hey, JB, read the title of the thread, realize that your posts are insulting, and then have the decency to either stay off the thread, remain respectful, or start your own: The I'm Going To Insult You When You Post On My Thread Thread.
-Demonstrate that 'spirit' existsTo my knowledge God is not hidden when we seek with our whole heart. A spirit is not something that the carnal can see.
The human egg and sperm may feel the same way.
The answer is in who created all the religions?
You should distinquish your comments between religious belief or just belief. I don't believe in God, and I certainly don't believe it is because it is a trend. What I don't understand is how you can call someones lack of belief as doubts or fears. Unless you are projecting yours on them. Just because someone doesn't share your faith in your God, doesn't mean they are doubtful or fearful to admit they believe in God. It is quite possible they simply don't.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear on what I was trying to say. I do that alot and my wife will certainly agree with that... No, I have no doubts and fears about my belief in God. I fully understand how some people will not believe simply because God is not somebody they can call up on the phone, or touch, or see on the nightly news. Nobody alive today has ever seen God, or Jesus and because of that, it's pretty hard to sell somebody on the fact that there is a God. That is why faith is so important in any religion and not just mine. You have to have faith that God exists or you will never believe. I read you wrong when I mentioned doubts and fears concerning God and religion in general. Lots of people have doubts and fears in that area. If I mislabeled you, I am sorry. Nobody is born with a natural belief in God or any religion. Generally there is some event in their lives that tends to turn people towards church, God, a particular religion, etc. Possibly for you that event has not yet occurred. You may live your whole life and never have that experience or develope a belief in God. That's entirely your right and I don't think anybody would ever deny you that right. I don't "blindly" believe in God. There was a time in my life that I thought it was all pretty bogus too. Been there and experienced that. I will say that I am a happier person with God in my life.
The title says it all, so, please refrain from name calling, disrespect, or insults of any kind.
Also, since this debate is framed as logical and rational, please understand that supporting your arguments with anecdotal evidence is not reasonable, convincing, or conclusive and will and should just be ignored.
Let me just kick it off with: There is no physical evidence of God.
Intelligent Design has been debunked.
The only proof that supports the Bible is historical.
And since, if He exists, He bestowed to me the ability to think, to make logical conclusions, to be rational, to reason, and free will with which to choose, then, honestly, why would I choose (if one can claim that it IS a choice) to believe in Him when there is nothing conclusive to support His existence?
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Luke 11:9-10)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:5-6)
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:3-5)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you (John 14:26)
You asked questions and I answered them. You can accept those or not. I have no need to debate you on this issue.
Yes, I understand that you have no need to debate me on this issue, but you must have at least wanted to because you posted on this thread and responded to my posts.
I don't accept unsupported answers from the Bible. If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or not, that's great and I'm totally open to that, but this thread is meant to conduct a debate using logic, critical analysis, and rational reasoning. Quoting the Bible is fine, but its not been accepted as factually true so please refrain from admitting it as supporting evidence unless you can support with evidence that the Bible is true. That's why your argument, at least in this thread, isn't viable.
Colo, how do you expect t to ever have a reasonable or logical discussion with someone who already admitted that intelligence, reason, logic, and common sense have nothing to do with his thought processes? Dog has admitted that he believes without reason, based wholly on a lack of reason, analysis, or critical thinking.
All you're doing is playing office PC support class; you're not saying anything meaningful.
CMM strikes again.
As you very well know, there is no physical, logical proof in the sphere of the physical world that God exists, so you are asking for something which can't be given or proven to begin with. What you can't understand is how people can believe in something where there is no physical/logical proof to show you that it exists. You believe in the human capacity to completely understand everything in the universe. I can't understand how you can put your faith in that? Do you really believe that humans understand everything there is to know about the universe and space? To me that's as much of a leap of faith as those who believe in God, maybe even moreso. But, do carry on.
CMM strikes again.
As you very well know, there is no physical, logical proof in the sphere of the physical world that God exists, so you are asking for something which can't be given or proven to begin with. What you can't understand is how people can believe in something where there is no physical/logical proof to show you that it exists. You believe in the human capacity to completely understand everything in the universe. I can't understand how you can put your faith in that? Do you really believe that humans understand everything there is to know about the universe and space? To me that's as much of a leap of faith as those who believe in God, maybe even moreso. But, do carry on.
Hey, Newby. I was wondering when you'd show up.
I just want to clear up your misunderstanding of my position (bolded above):
I don't believe human beings have the capacity to or understand the Universe completely. I think that human beings never will. Read Nieztche's "Beyond Good and Evil" to understand why I think that. So I don't dogmatically believe in human understanding or definitions for the Universe. Let me just put it to you this way: I look up and I see the sky is blue. I don't believe it's blue because someone told me it is. I don't believe it's blue because I read that it is. I believe its blue because when I look up I can't help BUT believe it's blue.
So, I look around and I don't see God. I don't believe in God because someone told me not to (in fact I've only been told TO believe in God). I don't believe in God because I read that I shouldn't (In fact, most of everything I've ever read dealing with religion told me TO believe in God). The reason I don't believe in God is because when I look around, I can't help but NOT to believe in God. It isn't a choice.
So the only logical belief system is agnostics, those who don't believe but are leaving the door slightly open in case you prove it to be.But your entire argument is based on human reasoning, logic, and knowledge. Therefore, since you've admitted that there is a limit to that reasoning, logic and knowledge, you can't simply dismiss the possibility of a higher being based on that criteria alone either. Maybe there is another plane of existance that we are completely unaware of and unable to experience or 'prove' with our logic, our science, or our understanding of the universe?
Humans have defined the sky to be 'blue'. It's a label we gave to a color, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily blue, it's an agreement, for the necessity of society so that we can all understand references to a color called 'blue'. As someone mentioned, you believe in other intangible things, such as love, what logic and reasoning do you ascribe too to prove that love exists? What is the purpose of love, from where does it originate. Animals are given survival instincts, yet man will sacrifice survival to save someone that he 'loves', which goes against all science would tell you about instincts. How do you explain that? Why are humans unique in that?
Do you see humans as different from animals? Or do you see us as just another animal?
So the only logical belief system is agnostics, those who don't believe but are leaving the door slightly open in case you prove it to be.But your entire argument is based on human reasoning, logic, and knowledge. Therefore, since you've admitted that there is a limit to that reasoning, logic and knowledge, you can't simply dismiss the possibility of a higher being based on that criteria alone either. Maybe there is another plane of existance that we are completely unaware of and unable to experience or 'prove' with our logic, our science, or our understanding of the universe?
Humans have defined the sky to be 'blue'. It's a label we gave to a color, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily blue, it's an agreement, for the necessity of society so that we can all understand references to a color called 'blue'. As someone mentioned, you believe in other intangible things, such as love, what logic and reasoning do you ascribe too to prove that love exists? What is the purpose of love, from where does it originate. Animals are given survival instincts, yet man will sacrifice survival to save someone that he 'loves', which goes against all science would tell you about instincts. How do you explain that? Why are humans unique in that?
Do you see humans as different from animals? Or do you see us as just another animal?
Dude, if the sky in your world isn't blue, what planet are you on?
We are just another animal who's deluded himself into thinking that he's god's chosen species.