Gunny's Thread on Religion

[Gunny]

I'm giving fair warning straight - up. Any flames, insults or derailments will be deleted and/or moved. Call it what you want, but there you have it. I'm sick and tired of zealots destroying religious threads so no one else can even have a discussion.

Anyone who has a problem with that, tough.

Okay, discuss ....

 

[Avatar4321]

I only have two words to say on the matter:

Whoo hoo!

 

[Harry Dresden]

if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....

 

[Gunny]

if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....

I mostly agree. I don't like religious zealots anymore than I do anti-religion zealots. One believes in believing and one believes in disbelieving. I've heard a lot of arguments -- mostly dismissals and/or insults that disbelieving is not a belief.

I disagree. If you ACTIVELY are pushing your belief that there is no God, or whatever anyone worships, then it is a belief. One has to choose to believe or disbelieve. If one goes so far as to hate religion and have to say so, one most certainly is as ardent a zealot as a revival tent preacher.

I really don't care what others believe. My whole issue with the topic is that no one seems to be able to have a decent conversation about religion on this board without being attacked. Granted, we're pretty lax here, but as of late, this subforum has gotten completely out of control. This isn't the Flame Zone II.

 

[Agnapostate]

I'm of course an apostate and an atheist, but I don't believe most secular individuals have an interest in interfering with the personal beliefs of the religious if they merely remained personal beliefs, just as most secular individuals don't have an interest in interfering with the beliefs of those who embrace astrology or other superstition not based on reason. It's because the beliefs of the religious exert an undue influence over mainstream society (we might still have a World Trade Center if not for religion) that objections are raised. As noted:

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Moved From: http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...bout-religion-no-insults-allowed-threa-3.html

Like I said earlier, God is a hard item to sell because he is not somebody you can physically see, touch, or openly question. I have been where you are and I understand your position. I don't agree with it but your opinion is just as valid as mine. We just see things differently. I believe in God. I don't stand on the street corner and brow beat people with my beliefs. I do, however, voice my opinion BUT my opinion is no more valid than your opinion. Your lack of belief is not threatening to me. Some christians come completely unglued if you look them in the eye and tell them what they believe is a crock of crap. I don't think those type of christians are as tolerant as they should be. Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.

Well, that is a good attitude, BBD. I respect that you can see things that way.

I don't blame Christians, or anyone for that matter, for getting angry if I were to look them in the eye and say "What you believe is a crock of crap!" That's just rude. And I'm guilty of doing it and guilty of wondering why they got so angry when I did it (must be because they're so insecure in their beliefs! - hey, naivete, what can I say?).

And I wouldn't mind Christians believing anything they wanted to so long as they didn't harm people. And for the most part that is the case. But the judgement, the self-righteousness that is naturally a part of monotheism (and you even demonstrated it yourself:

Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.

), the discrimination against those who do not fit in with their world view (i.e. homosexuals and atheists, or people of different religious faiths) is something that profoundly bothers me.

I think we are all one. Not in a weird, new-age, crystal power sense, but in a very real, scientifically logical sense. We are all literally star dust. What I see in others, I see in me. I'm sick of hearing how liberals aren't tolerant because they don't tolerate Christians. That is an oversimplification and a mischaracterization. Liberals accept all religious faiths. We don't tolerate intolerance which comes with many organized religions. We don't tolerate the intolerance of homosexuals, an entire group of people who are not accurately characterized when described as sick and perverted, or equated with pedophiles or criminals.

Just like your statement above: Christains aren't perfect. Just forgiven. Why are you forgiven when I have no choice but not to believe? God doesn't forgive me for being unable to choose to believe that his son died, was resurrected and went to Heaven where He is a big VIP? I'm not directing this as an insult at you or in a personal way, but I see it as a side-effect of monotheism: we are God's chosen ones and everybody, quite literally, be damned.

And that's another reason why I don't subscribe to the belief. Cause I see flaws in it, and if it is the one, true way then I don't see why there would be any flaws in it at all.

 

[Big Black Dog]

if religion works for you and it gives you inner peace helps you through the day,helps you through times of adversity and bad times....bless ya...go for it....i just dont like those who think because they believe in something and someone else may not,they are somehow better,and dont seem to mind letting those people know.....OR the religious zealots,who go WAY overboard with it,and carry it to the extreme....

I know what you mean. I know some of those "holier than thou" kind of folks. It's a turn off. I don't stand on street corners and try to convert the world into my way of thinking. I also don't like the so-called "score keepers" at church. These are the folks who count heads every Sunday and wonder where you are if you aren't there. There have always been those that raise a large amount of hell on Saturday night and on Sunday morning suddenly become a full-blown saint. Those folks are a turn off too. Religion to me is more of a personal thing. I go to church when I feel the need to go and I toss money into the pot to support the church. However, I am not there every time they open the door.

 

[iagainsti]

I'm reposting this from the "logical, rational, and reasonable debate" thread:

I think this might be a good place to pose a few questions to the religious people who are participating in this discussion.

So, for Christians, it's a given that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and died for their sins (meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity (although there are some Biblical scholars who believe that the Bible actually teaches that nonbelievers will be completely destroyed, but that's a whole other discussion). Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

It is also a given that God created man in his own image, and loves and takes a special interest in each and every one of the people he created. God's love for man is emphasized throughout Christianity.

Now, the word of God is revealed to us through the Bible. As God no longer makes his presence known the way he did in Biblical days, the Bible is the only direct communication we have from God. It is his word, written by him through man, and contains all the information we need in order to know what it takes to be saved. (Again, please correct me if any of this is wrong)

Here are some facts about the Bible and about the world today, from my understanding: the Bible was written (in installments) about two millenia ago, in a particular language (Hebrew) to a particular group of people. There is a story in the Bible about the Tower of Babel, in which God punishes mankind for trying to build a tower tall enough to reach Heaven by scattering them across the earth and splitting their languages. So, according to the Bible, the reason that we have about 7,000 different languages spoken on the planet today is because God made it so as a punishment. Because the Bible must be translated into so many different languages from its original Hebrew, and since the Hebrew language has changed and evolved so much in the last two thousand years, as all languages do, many things in the Bible are lost, confused, or the meaning changed in translation.

So, these are the questions I have for you:

God created us all and loves us all immensely. Any of us who do not believe in him will be doomed to suffer for all of eternity. Is there a way to reconcile those two ideas? Is eternal horrendous suffering a punishment that is fitting of the crime of not believing in the existence of God? Why would a loving God base the salvation of his creations on their belief in him, rather than their character or morality or some other criteria?

Also: is it fair that since the punishment for nonbelief is eternal torment, God made it so difficult to come to believe in him? Would he not be morally obligated to make his existence painfully obvious to each and every one of us, if the consequences for not believing in him are so severe?

I am not asking these questions as some sort of challenge; these are legitimate questions I have about Christianity and they are some of the main reasons why I do not believe. My mind is open to the existence of a higher power...I just don't believe that the higher power in question is the one I desrcribed above. But my mind isn't even completely closed to THAT possibility, since I acknowledge it's possible that there are things I don't fully understand...which is why I'm posing these questions, in hopes that someone can give me a good explanation for the discrepancies I feel I'm seeing here.

And, again, if I am wrong in any of those above assertions, please correct me. If I'm going to believe or disbelieve in something, I want to know the absolute truth about that something first.

 

[JBeukema]

God is a spirit.

'Prove it

Can you measure a spirit?

Perhaps, once you demonstrate what it is

Belief in God is based solely on faith.

and therefore not on reason or logical deductions.

agree that you cannot "prove" that God exists BUT can you prove that God does not exist solely on your word alone

You bear the burden of proof. Prove I am not god. i might as well say to prove that there's no such thing ads the tooth fairy. Prove that Krishna and FSM do not exist.

You can neither prove or disprove the existance of God. It's all based on faith.

Then the religious should stop acting like it's based on reason or any kind of intelligent thought process.

[First I think it would be helpful if you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Prove it

Since God is a spirit

You never did demonstrate that

then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God.

Prove it

A soul can be in hell

Prove that hell and the soul exist, and that a soul can be in hell

and the person can be outside the gate.

Prove it

The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.

Proof? Demonstrate that your assertions are valid.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason. Seems like everybody thinks their religion is "the only one" and everybody else is a heathen. That is the one thing that has always puzzled me about religion. Every major religion professes that if you don't believe their doctrine that you won't make it into heaven. Ok, if this is true, who has the right rule book? I find more comfort in what my Grandmother used to say about there will be some of all in God's heaven... But back to all of the killing in the name of God. All of the major religions are guilty of it. Too bad. It's a shame world history has tossed this at us all.

 

[manifold]

Religion, like most things, is best taken in moderation.

 

[Big Black Dog]

nd I wouldn't mind Christians believing anything they wanted to so long as they didn't harm people. And for the most part that is the case. But the judgement, the self-righteousness that is naturally a part of monotheism (and you even demonstrated it yourself:

Yeah, I have a tendency to be pretty strong on what I believe and don't believe. It's like the folks that drive Fords and think Chevy drivers are insane and vice versa... I hope I don't come across as "self-righeous" because Lord knows I have my full share of faults... Remember when you point your finger at somebody that you have three fingers pointing back at you.

 

[iagainsti]

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason. Seems like everybody thinks their religion is "the only one" and everybody else is a heathen. That is the one thing that has always puzzled me about religion. Every major religion professes that if you don't believe their doctrine that you won't make it into heaven. Ok, if this is true, who has the right rule book? I find more comfort in what my Grandmother used to say about there will be some of all in God's heaven... But back to all of the killing in the name of God. All of the major religions are guilty of it. Too bad. It's a shame world history has tossed this at us all.

I agree with you, and that's one of the main reasons I argue against religious belief, because it can be harmful when in the wrong hands...and it seems like there are a lot of wrong hands out there, doesn't it?

I like your way of looking at it, that "there will be some of all in God's heaven"...I find a lot more comfort in that too. But at the same time, if that's the case, then since all the major religions put forth that if you don't believe their doctrine you won't get to heaven, can you believe in one of those religions and still believe in that ideal? In other words, if you believe that anyone who believes in God can make it to Heaven, no matter what their religion, can you still profess yourself a Christian, since Christian doctrine explicitly states that those who do not accept Jesus Christ will NOT make it to Heaven? I'm asking because I know a lot of religious moderates accept both these ideas, and they seem contradictory to me.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm of course an apostate and an atheist, but I don't believe most secular individuals have an interest in interfering with the personal beliefs of the religious if they merely remained personal beliefs, just as most secular individuals don't have an interest in interfering with the beliefs of those who embrace astrology or other superstition not based on reason. It's because the beliefs of the religious exert an undue influence over mainstream society (we might still have a World Trade Center if not for religion) that objections are raised. As noted:

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

You have not read much on this board then, we have several right NOW actively creating threads to ask peoples belief's and then attacking anyone that posts they believe in a God or religion.

Ohh and I notice you have a cartoon against religion but none against the rabid atheists that try to belittle the religious and are very vocal about their attacks.

 

[Sunni Man]

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason.

That is a totally false statement.

Tens of millions of people were killed in both WWI and WWII. And it had zero to do with religion.

Also, tens of millions of people were killed and murdered during both the Russian and Chineese communist revolutions and subsequent takeovers.

And again, it had zero to do with religion, because the revolutions were led by secular atheists.

 

[Gunny]

I'm of course an apostate and an atheist, but I don't believe most secular individuals have an interest in interfering with the personal beliefs of the religious if they merely remained personal beliefs, just as most secular individuals don't have an interest in interfering with the beliefs of those who embrace astrology or other superstition not based on reason. It's because the beliefs of the religious exert an undue influence over mainstream society (we might still have a World Trade Center if not for religion) that objections are raised. As noted:

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

I am not saying religion is blameless by any means. If you have not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious beliefs simply because they consider it irrational a baseless, you may want to re-read you comment wherein you compare it to things regarded as superstitions.

The openly hierarchical institutions you mention are out of context to their times. The inquisitions are non sequitur to any argument against Christianity today. Yes they happened. As did the plagues, and Europeans believing that bathing and fresh air were dangerous; which, ironically enough, only created a better breeding ground for disease.

The argument that religion can intrude where it is not wanted has merit. What you fail to mention is the opposite side of the coin. In the name of secularism and the US Constitution, the non-religious have encroached on religion.

You also place emphasis only on the negative aspect of religion. Religion has had far more profound positive impacts on society than negative.

 

[dilloduck]

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason.

That is a totally false statement.

Tens of millions of people were killed in both WWI and WWII. And it had zero to do with religion.

Also, tens of millions of people were killed and murdered during both the Russian and Chineese communist revolutions and subsequent takeovers.

And again, it had zero to do with religion, because the revolutions were led by secular atheists.

thank you Sunni---bout time that cliché is put to rest.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Christians that teach people go to heaven when they die are not teaching biblical information, The bible is clear, when you die you do not go to heaven or hell, you are "asleep" as Jesus put it and others. No one is judged until Judgement Day after the final battle. There is only one person that knows for a fact he is accepted, that would be the thief that was crucified with Jesus. There are others that know but the bible is not specific who they are, just that there are 144000 of them.

Only the 144000 will actually ascend to Heaven, the remaining that are found faithful will be given perfect bodies and live on a Paradise Earth with no disease and no sickness. Jesus will rule for God as their King, the 144000 in Heaven will help Jesus.

There is no fire and brimstone Hell. If you are found not to be acceptable on Judgement day and are excluded from Paradise Earth, you will permanently die. If you never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus and chose, you will be given a chance to learn and make a choice.

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

There are numerous passages in the Bible that clearly explain Hell is not a fire and brimstone place.

Psalms 72:8 And he will have subjects from sea to sea
And from the River to the ends of the earth.

Revelation 20:3 and 4

3 With that I heard a loud voice frome the throne say "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.
4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will be mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

 

[JBeukema]

The Christians that teach people go to heaven when they die are not teaching biblical information,

Nor the ones who say god loves 'all his children' or who present the biblical god as one of peace and love and mercy

 

[Gunny]

I've not encountered anyone who has an interest in attacking religious belief simply because they consider it irrational or baseless; many beliefs retain such elements. It's because religious belief has traditionally primarily adopted the role of the basis of an openly hierarchical institution (the Roman Catholic inquisition, excessively theocratic Islamic states today, etc.), or the basis of other negative influences that have the effect of causing intrusions into non-religious elements of life, as noted by the cartoon, that there is opposition.

It's a sad thing to say but there have been more people killed on planet Earth in the name of God than for any other reason. Seems like everybody thinks their religion is "the only one" and everybody else is a heathen. That is the one thing that has always puzzled me about religion. Every major religion professes that if you don't believe their doctrine that you won't make it into heaven. Ok, if this is true, who has the right rule book? I find more comfort in what my Grandmother used to say about there will be some of all in God's heaven... But back to all of the killing in the name of God. All of the major religions are guilty of it. Too bad. It's a shame world history has tossed this at us all.

"Killing in the name of God" is a red herring. If you look at each and every instance where killing has been done in the name of God, you will find not only killing that goes against what Christianity teaches, but you will find a mortal man behind it with an agenda that also will not be in concert with the teaching of Christianity.

Fred Phelps is a perfect example. That man is as much a Christian as Adolf Hitler was. He uses the name to try and justify his sick, twisted beliefs. But detractors are QUICK to pick up on his claim to Christianity in an attempt to label all Christians as the same.