The Living Wage, Shot down in Switzerland.

[frigidweirdo]

Life expectancy has absolutely nothing.... NOTHING to do with health care. I don't understand why people don't grasp this.

That's because, clearly, we're not talking healthcare. We're talking STATISTICS. Listen.
You have a country where the average life expectancy is 40. Chances of surviving cancer when you are young is higher than when you are old.

file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/Surv_by_cancer_age15-39.pdf

Lung and stomach cancer in 15-39 year olds is around 1/3 chance of surviving.
Bowel, Brain, Leukemia about 2/3 and others go to around 90 something percent.

file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/Surv_by_cancer_age50-59.pdf

For 50-59 year olds.
Lung and stomach cancer 12% and 26%
Bowel, Brain Leukemia 61%, 11% and 65%

So, some are down a little bit, by about 2 percent one is down by 50%, lung and stomach are massively down.

So, if someone who in one country would be healthy, then die of cancer at the age of say 80, but died of some complication with obesity at the age of 60, is clearly not going to appear on one set of statistics, but will appear on the other.
A healthier society is more liable to diagnose cancer in older patients. Older patients are more likely to die from that cancer.

So, while it doesn't have an impact on the quality of care, it does have an impact on the statistics which people use to show quality of care.

If I pull out a gun and shoot you dead....... that directly impacts life expectancy.

Now explain to me how that is health care's fault? Were the doctors supposed to magically fly to my location, and prevent me from shooting? Were they supposed to jump to you, and toss a bullet proof vest over you just before you were hit?

Of course not.

If you lose control and hit a tree in your car and die, or if I plow into you with my Grand Marquis and kill you.... that directly impacts life expectancy.

Now explain to me how that reflects on the quality of health care? Were the doctors supposed to pull along side with lug nuts, and zip them into your wheels while you were driving, to prevent you from losing control? Where they supposed to jump through the window of my car, grab the wheel to prevent me from hitting you?

Of course not.

If you are hooked on Heroin, and OD in your home and die.... that directly impacts life expectancy.

Now explain to me how higher quality health care would prevent that? Are doctors and nurses supposed to be going door to door, to find you, and rip the needles out of your hands, to prevent you from ODing?

There are millions of factors that all effect life expectancy. Very very few of which are related to health care.

The only statistic that directly relates to the ability of the health care system to diagnose, treat, and heal patients, is survival rates. You show me the 5-Year Survival rates, between the US and Switzerland, and I'll show you higher quality US care.

And not death rates either. If you and I are on islands with 20 people each. And you have only one person get sick, and you simply let them die. And I have 5 people get sick, and we heal and cure 3 of them, and two die. Would you conclude your health care was better? Of course not. My health care system is better, even though twice as many died.

Death rates are also meaningless. Again, only survival rates make any difference. Only survival rates actually show the quality of the care.

Switzerland's quality health system helps push up cancer rate - swissinfo.ch

"Cases of melanoma, prostate and breast cancer are higher in Switzerland than the European average - a side-effect of the top-notch Swiss health care system."

Again, I'm not sure what the point of that was. I don't care at all, how many are dected, if they die after being detected.

What matters isn't just "did we find cancer!". What matters is "did we find the cancer, and treat the cancer, and heal the patient".

The reality is, it isn't that easy to compare two systems. Higher cancer death rate could be down to higher life expectancy, or due to less people being obese and therefore less likely to die of obesity, or lower traffic accidents etc.
They have a high level of people getting cancer, especially old people, because they live a long time.

You explain to me then, why it's so hard to compare. To me, it's pretty easy. When you find someone who is ill.... are they alive in 5-years?

Britain, the sick man of Europe: Heart and cancer survival rates among worst in developed world | Mail Online

Who is at the top of the list, on 5 year survival rates for Breast and Bowel cancer? The US.

Who is so low, they are not even ranked? Switzerland among many others.

If you get either of those illnesses, and you shockingly, want to live... which country do you have the absolute best possible chance of being alive in 5 years or longer? The US.

Now if you want to save money, and have a higher risk of dying for the sake of your dollars, then by all means take your chances elsewhere. Most people would rather live, and get a bill in the mail, than die without a bill.

But don't tell me that they have higher quality of care. They simply do not. Not even close. Period.

So, you want to know about survival rates, I told you how lower life expectancy impacts survival rate statistics.

 

[bripat9643]

Switzerland still has one of the highest minimum wages in the world and if you count healthcare and paid time off it might be higher. Not exactly the conservative Chinese paradise that Republicans dream of....

Switzerland has no minimum wage, numskull.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

BBC News - Switzerland rejects world's highest minimum wage

It's amazing how many times the left point to Europe, as being a bastion of Leftist Utopia. Granted they are not a leftist Utopia, by any stretch, and are very much Capitalist in many regards.

Apparently having Nestle and Novartis, collecting a cool $130 Billion in revenue a year, making billions in profit, is completely socialist.

Nevertheless, I came across this. Switzerland had a national referendum on the "living wage". The whole deal was shot down in public vote. Now look at the reasons.

Under the plan, employers would have had to pay workers a minimum 22 Swiss francs (about $25; £15; 18 euros) an hour.

Supporters said the move was necessary for people to live a decent life.

But critics argued that it would raise production costs and increase unemployment.

The minimum wage proposal was rejected by 76% of voters.

The same reasons we've been pointing out here. It will raise prices, and kill employment.

So even the supposed socialist utopia, can figure out how destructive raising the minimum wage is, and they are moving away from it.

Meanwhile the ignorant and retarded here, are moving toward it.

Our Progs only pointed out there was going to be a vote, odd they didn't follow up once the vote was counted

 

[thereisnospoon]

Switzerland still has one of the highest minimum wages in the world and if you count healthcare and paid time off it might be higher. Not exactly the conservative Chinese paradise that Republicans dream of....

Health care and paid time off..yes, it's all about the goodies and handouts.
France has a mandatory PTO law. And unemployment among younger people is well over 20%. No one can find a job in France because the government won't allow anyone to be fired. The unions are far too powerful.
At least two or three times a year some worker cuts a fart, files a grievance and the whole fucking country goes on strike. Who needs that nonsense.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There is no way in hell I am working my butt off for $3.66 an hour. Go and fuck yourself with a razor blade first.

Yes. You want. Therefore you deserve.
Try operating your own business with over paid workers. Get back to us with THAT.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Seriously?

You cons barely know what's going on in our own government. And here you're pretending to care about whatever the hell is happening in Switzerland?

Wtf guys?

Ok just stop it...it is YOU LIBS who are keeping this Switzerland/ Denmark thing afloat.

 

[Andylusion]

Life expectancy has absolutely nothing.... NOTHING to do with health care. I don't understand why people don't grasp this.

That's because, clearly, we're not talking healthcare. We're talking STATISTICS. Listen.
You have a country where the average life expectancy is 40. Chances of surviving cancer when you are young is higher than when you are old.

file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/Surv_by_cancer_age15-39.pdf

Lung and stomach cancer in 15-39 year olds is around 1/3 chance of surviving.
Bowel, Brain, Leukemia about 2/3 and others go to around 90 something percent.

file:///C:/Users/hp/Downloads/Surv_by_cancer_age50-59.pdf

For 50-59 year olds.
Lung and stomach cancer 12% and 26%
Bowel, Brain Leukemia 61%, 11% and 65%

So, some are down a little bit, by about 2 percent one is down by 50%, lung and stomach are massively down.

So, if someone who in one country would be healthy, then die of cancer at the age of say 80, but died of some complication with obesity at the age of 60, is clearly not going to appear on one set of statistics, but will appear on the other.
A healthier society is more liable to diagnose cancer in older patients. Older patients are more likely to die from that cancer.

So, while it doesn't have an impact on the quality of care, it does have an impact on the statistics which people use to show quality of care.

For the last time.....

If you take out factors like auto fatalities, and homicides, our life expectancy is the highest in the whole world.

You can't prove that the only reason survival rates are higher, is because younger people are the ones getting sick, because it's not true.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So they have higher life expectancy, which impacts survival rates.... and yet our survival rate is higher?

Your logic fails. Please try again.

Higher life expectancy leads to LOWER cancer survival rates.

So, lower life expectancy in the US compared to Switzerland may be one of the reasons why the US has higher survival rates.

The logic isn't that difficult to grasp, it's not failing if you don't get it.

 

[Andylusion]

So they have higher life expectancy, which impacts survival rates.... and yet our survival rate is higher?

Your logic fails. Please try again.

Higher life expectancy leads to LOWER cancer survival rates.

So, lower life expectancy in the US compared to Switzerland may be one of the reasons why the US has higher survival rates.

The logic isn't that difficult to grasp, it's not failing if you don't get it.

Wow your quick with the response. I just changed that post. Try again.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Seriously?

You cons barely know what's going on in our own government. And here you're pretending to care about whatever the hell is happening in Switzerland?

Wtf guys?

Well, for beginners let's dig a little deeper:

Analysis: Imogen Foulkes, BBC News, Geneva
This was the third referendum on pay in Switzerland in the last 18 months, reflecting concern that the gap between rich and poor is growing here too.

Last February the Swiss backed restrictions on bosses' bonuses, but in November they rejected even stricter controls which would have limited top salaries to no more than 12 times that of the lowest paid.

The vote is a sign that Switzerland's long tradition of social partnership between business leaders and workers may be eroding: the bankruptcy of national airline Swissair over a decade ago, the disastrous losses suffered by the big Swiss banks in the subprime mortgage scandal, and the huge salaries and bonuses which continue to be paid in the banking and pharmaceutical industries have led many Swiss to lose trust in their business leaders.""

What is happening there is what is happening here, too. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Imagine that.

Workers in this country aren't asking for $25/hr like they are in Switzerland. But I've been to Switzerland many times and I can certainly believe it costs that much just to get by. It's the most expensive place I've ever been.

 

[frigidweirdo]

For the last time.....

If you take out factors like auto fatalities, and homicides, our life expectancy is the highest in the whole world.

You can't prove that the only reason survival rates are higher, is because younger people are the ones getting sick, because it's not true.

Yeah, if you take out US deaths, the US has the HIGHEST life expectancy in the world. Wonderful. What is that?

You do realise that homicides are 4 times higher than other first world countries.
The US has a road death rate of 10.2, compared to the UK's 2.75, Switzlerland's 4.2, Sweden's 3.0 etc.

However I don't understand your chart.

The US with murders and all of that has a life expectancy of 75.3, you exclude those who had fatal injuries, and you get a higher rate by 1.6 years.

Japan has 78.7 when people are killed. Take out those who have been fatally injured and you get 76.0

Now, I'm trying to figure out how this would work. It seems that there are a lot of people over the age of 78.7 manage to suffer fatal injuries in order to wipe them off the stats chart.

Or maybe this chart is just a crock of sheep.

I'm not talking about young people getting sick. I'm talking about people dying.

This is a download:
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mS...8607.pdf/RK=0/RS=GFmf7YovUmbP27Bqw_6hEtDcyQI-

"In 2010, 62,649 people died in Switzerland. Life expectancy at birth was 80.2 years for men and 84.6 years for women."

Switzerland: "For children aged between 1 and 12 the risk of dying is less than 2 in 10,000"


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf table 3

The US rate appears to be at 11.5 per 100,000 for 5-9 year olds.

You can see that the young are more likely to die in the US than in Switzerland. The death rate of 100 is reached at 30 for the US and 40 for Switzerland.

 

[Andylusion]

Seriously?

You cons barely know what's going on in our own government. And here you're pretending to care about whatever the hell is happening in Switzerland?

Wtf guys?

Well, for beginners let's dig a little deeper:

Analysis: Imogen Foulkes, BBC News, Geneva
This was the third referendum on pay in Switzerland in the last 18 months, reflecting concern that the gap between rich and poor is growing here too.

Last February the Swiss backed restrictions on bosses' bonuses, but in November they rejected even stricter controls which would have limited top salaries to no more than 12 times that of the lowest paid.

The vote is a sign that Switzerland's long tradition of social partnership between business leaders and workers may be eroding: the bankruptcy of national airline Swissair over a decade ago, the disastrous losses suffered by the big Swiss banks in the subprime mortgage scandal, and the huge salaries and bonuses which continue to be paid in the banking and pharmaceutical industries have led many Swiss to lose trust in their business leaders.""

What is happening there is what is happening here, too. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Imagine that.

Workers in this country aren't asking for $25/hr like they are in Switzerland. But I've been to Switzerland many times and I can certainly believe it costs that much just to get by. It's the most expensive place I've ever been.

I like the BBC. I think they are more apt to cover both sides of any issue, than virtually any of the major US media outlets. I was amazed to find a BBC report on gun violence in America, in which talking to the family of a guy who killed himself with a gun, allowed every single person to say the gun had nothing to do with it. The wife said it wasn't the gun. The friends, extended family, neighbors, all said it wasn't the gun.

But even so, the BBC report said repeatedly throughout the report, that without this gun, the guy would likely be alive today.

So even then, they all still have a bias. Of course the major US outlets, would not have reported the views and opinions of any of this guys relatives or family, or friends.

While the BBC is less bias by a wide margin, they are still bias. All media is bias, at some level. A high level, a low level, but at some level they are bias.

This is no different.

This was the third referendum on pay in Switzerland in the last 18 months, reflecting concern that the gap between rich and poor is growing here too

Says who? Based on what? The facts are that there have been multiple referendums. Opinion says it's because of concern over the gap between the rich and poor.

This is like every time the Democraps win an election, everyone claims it's because the public is reject conservative beliefs.

Then every time the Republicans win an election, everyone claims it's because the public is reject liberal beliefs.

So some reporter with a bias, interviews a Union leader in Switzerland with a bias, and suddenly "These votes are reflecting concern that the gap between rich and poor is growing in Switzerland".

Bull crap. You have to prove that first, before stating that as absolute fact.

Again, if you look up those referendums, the primary backers of those votes, the people who put all three of those votes on the ballot, were the Unions.

So one group of people, the Unions, push multiple votes on minimum wage. Magically the entire country is concerned about the gap between the rich and poor?

No, the Unions (the people who put this up to vote) are concerned about low skilled labor undercutting their jobs. We know that for a fact, because they have said as much many times.

Further, the gap between the rich and poor will ALWAYS grow in an economy that is growing. If the economy is growing at all.... the gap is going to grow as well.

It's impossible for it not to. If the economy is growing, then as production goes up, wages at the top end will also consistently go up.

At the bottom end, the REAL minimum wage, is always ZERO. So wages at the top are always growing as long as the economy is growing. The wages at the bottom are always zero, no matter if the economy is growing or not.

Thus, logically.... for people who do crazy things like "math", the gap between the rich and poor will always grow as long as the economy is growing.

 

[Andylusion]

For the last time.....

If you take out factors like auto fatalities, and homicides, our life expectancy is the highest in the whole world.

You can't prove that the only reason survival rates are higher, is because younger people are the ones getting sick, because it's not true.

Yeah, if you take out US deaths, the US has the HIGHEST life expectancy in the world. Wonderful. What is that?

You do realise that homicides are 4 times higher than other first world countries.
The US has a road death rate of 10.2, compared to the UK's 2.75, Switzlerland's 4.2, Sweden's 3.0 etc.

Yeah... that's MY point. What do either of those have to do with health care?

Nothing.

So when someone says "Switzerland has top-notch health care.... just look at the life expectancy!" Fail..... That's a false argument. Life expectancy, includes those factors above, that have nothing at all to do with health care. If we had the same road deaths, and homicides as Switzerland, our life expectancy would be higher than Switzerland.

The only statistics that directly compare one health care system, to another health care system, are statistics directly affected by the health care system. Are the people who get ill.... alive in 5-years? Survival rates in the US, are drastically better than in Switzerland. Drastically better.

The US with murders and all of that has a life expectancy of 75.3, you exclude those who had fatal injuries, and you get a higher rate by 1.6 years.

Japan has 78.7 when people are killed. Take out those who have been fatally injured and you get 76.0

Now, I'm trying to figure out how this would work. It seems that there are a lot of people over the age of 78.7 manage to suffer fatal injuries in order to wipe them off the stats chart.

Or maybe this chart is just a crock of sheep.

Your question is absolutely valid, and I know this because I had the same dilemma.

The chart came from two professors, one from Texas A&M, and the other from University of Iowa. They used OECD data to create the chart.

You can't just strip out homicides and fatalities, because the information isn't there. Life expectancy data, doesn't show cause of death.

Thus, what the research had to do, was create a Fatal Injury Adjusted Life Expectancy.

What that means is this.... they came up with an 'average fatal injury death rate'. And then adjusted life expectancy, up or down, based on where the country in question was, compared to the average.

Thus, if a country has extremely high murder and auto fatality rate compared to the average, they adjusted life expectancy up relative to the difference.

Equally, if they had a country with extremely low murder and auto fatality rate, they adjusted their life expectancy lower, relative to the average.

Japan has the lowest murder and auto fatalities in the OECD. Thus when adjusted to the mean average, their life expectancy was lowered the most.

The US has the highest murder and auto fatality rates in the OECD. Thus ours was adjusted up the most.

The adjustments are as close to correct one can get, with the given data.

I'm not talking about young people getting sick. I'm talking about people dying.

This is a download:
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mS...8607.pdf/RK=0/RS=GFmf7YovUmbP27Bqw_6hEtDcyQI-

"In 2010, 62,649 people died in Switzerland. Life expectancy at birth was 80.2 years for men and 84.6 years for women."

Switzerland: "For children aged between 1 and 12 the risk of dying is less than 2 in 10,000"

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf table 3

The US rate appears to be at 11.5 per 100,000 for 5-9 year olds.

You can see that the young are more likely to die in the US than in Switzerland. The death rate of 100 is reached at 30 for the US and 40 for Switzerland.

Right. But is that because of bad health care, or because of car accidents, and crime violence?

That's what the prior graph shows. Yes, life expectancy is lower in the US, but not because we have worse health care. Survival rates show conclusively our health care is better.

The reason life expectancy is lower, is because of fatal injury, not health care. If you get sick, you have a better chance of surviving it here in the US, than anywhere else in the world.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Seriously?

You cons barely know what's going on in our own government. And here you're pretending to care about whatever the hell is happening in Switzerland?

Wtf guys?

Ok just stop it...it is YOU LIBS who are keeping this Switzerland/ Denmark thing afloat.

Switzerland/Denmark thing? Lol what?