CDZ The Iranian nuclear deal: a deeper look

[Indofred]

Iran has been accused by members of the international community of funding, providing equipment, weapons, training and giving sanctuary to terrorists.[1]

So has America, so what's your point?
America is guilty of everything you say Iran has done, so it's hard to see any moral high ground here.

 

[Indofred]

we've cut deals with shitty people over time

Removing the elected government and installing a brutal dictator is a little above 'cutting a deal'.
America has been interfering in Iran for decades, and been trying y
to destroy them for a long time, so you can hardly expect them to trust you before the end of the week.

 

[Indofred]

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable.

I disagree.
The problem began when the British and Americans removed the democratically elected government of Iran to install that nasty dictator.
It just hadn't appeared at that point, but that was the seed.

the problem began long ago, when westerners drew lines on a map to divide their shares of the middle east, pushing conflicted groups together, making conflict inevitable.

That didn't help, but installing the Shah was the real cause of this string of events.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

this is why I tend to hide my age. most people dismiss what I say as foolish nonsense because I am young. I an not naive enough to think that an essay written on an online political forum will change the world, but it is the best thing that I can do right now. I am always open to debate, but you deny my claims without any sort of counter argument or evidence. I cant rebuttal if there is no counterclaim.

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable.

I disagree.
The problem began when the British and Americans removed the democratically elected government of Iran to install that nasty dictator.
It just hadn't appeared at that point, but that was the seed.

the problem began long ago, when westerners drew lines on a map to divide their shares of the middle east, pushing conflicted groups together, making conflict inevitable.

That didn't help, but installing the Shah was the real cause of this string of events.

the installation of the Shah happened as an indirect result of tht.

 

[Hossfly]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

this is why I tend to hide my age. most people dismiss what I say as foolish nonsense because I am young. I an not naive enough to think that an essay written on an online political forum will change the world, but it is the best thing that I can do right now. I am always open to debate, but you deny my claims without any sort of counter argument or evidence. I cant rebuttal if there is no counterclaim.

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

this is why I tend to hide my age. most people dismiss what I say as foolish nonsense because I am young. I an not naive enough to think that an essay written on an online political forum will change the world, but it is the best thing that I can do right now. I am always open to debate, but you deny my claims without any sort of counter argument or evidence. I cant rebuttal if there is no counterclaim.

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

 

[Hossfly]

I also am a newbie, simply an older newbie, in all respects. Brevity is a thing of beauty and to be honest the essay simply does not smack of brevity. Try to be brief, concise, truthful and brief. Nothing worse for an old newbie to awaken and ask himself, what was I reading. Nothing further, at this point, unless, now you have me rambling.

Veni, vidi, vici. Concise, complete and correct. (As the Army teaches writers)

Veni, vidi, vici means "I came, I saw, I conquered", not "Concise, complete and correct"

I didn't say that. I used Napoleons statement as an example. Not only are you verbose, you lack situational awareness.

you'd hate my next essay. it is 6 pages (although it also contains much more information-I also spent more than 1.5 hrs on it and did some editing.

I would venture to say that RoccoR has more knowledge about the Mid-east and Iran than anyone here. Also, aris2chat is another good source of knowledge.

 

[Hossfly]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

this is why I tend to hide my age. most people dismiss what I say as foolish nonsense because I am young. I an not naive enough to think that an essay written on an online political forum will change the world, but it is the best thing that I can do right now. I am always open to debate, but you deny my claims without any sort of counter argument or evidence. I cant rebuttal if there is no counterclaim.

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

I have found that even though I am only *ahem* years old, I am more intelligent, open minded, and yes, even experienced, than most older people, and virtually all younger people.

 

[Hossfly]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

I have found that even though I am only *ahem* years old, I am more intelligent, open minded, and yes, even experienced, than most older people, and virtually all younger people.

"Well done is better than well said."
~~Benj. Franklin

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

this is why I tend to hide my age. most people dismiss what I say as foolish nonsense because I am young. I an not naive enough to think that an essay written on an online political forum will change the world, but it is the best thing that I can do right now. I am always open to debate, but you deny my claims without any sort of counter argument or evidence. I cant rebuttal if there is no counterclaim.

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

A vet's good day to you my friend, Hossfly. I picked up on your response and appreciate it. Some things never change and the young are the first to miss that point. To think an essay will change that which aged and wise politicians and statesmen have attempted since government was decreed is foolhardy at best. Perhaps, when Phil is older, wiser, and experienced, he himself stated he was young, perhaps he will have the honor of causing said change. I wish him well. From one retired vet to another, Good Day and Carry On! "Garry Owen"!!!!

I have found that even though I am only *ahem* years old, I am more intelligent, open minded, and yes, even experienced, than most older people, and virtually all younger people.

"Well done is better than well said."
~~Benj. Franklin

that quote does not apply to this situation, as we are in an online forum, where I cannot technically do anything

 

[Hossfly]

Iran has simply proved they cannot be trusted. The Supreme Leader said just today that the Treaty will not change their relationship with the U.S. and that Iran will continue to support Hizbollah, Palestinian Resistance and other terrorist regimes. Do you need any other wakeup calls?

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

480 views but only 8 people have answered the survey question

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

you must separate the government from the people. what is important is not what it does for the government, but what it does for the people.

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

please elaborate. why, specifically, do you think the deal was harmful?

 

[Hossfly]

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

please elaborate. why, specifically, do you think the deal was harmful?

In post #73, separating the government and the people was my first point.

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

please elaborate. why, specifically, do you think the deal was harmful?

Piece o' cake. Because Iran is still feverishly working on a bomb and a means to launch it.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

please elaborate. why, specifically, do you think the deal was harmful?

if you agree with that, then I fail to see how you still oppose the deal. with or without the deal, the Iranian government will cause trouble. but by giving the people the power to change the government, we take steps towards ending it.

An ideal outcome would be for the people to oust the leaders but the leaders know this and would butcher millions. Catch 22

there is no perfect, pretty sunshine-and-rainbows solution, but that does not mean that we should not takes steps towards reaching some solution.

Obama is taking steps. In the wrong direction.

please elaborate. why, specifically, do you think the deal was harmful?

Piece o' cake. Because Iran is still feverishly working on a bomb and a means to launch it.

first: what proof do you have of that? second, the deal will severely delay any nuclear research, bomb or no. third, what I have said many,many times, by empowering the people and giving them greater economic security you give them the ability to change their government. fourth, lets fast forward a few years. Iran's economy is booming due to foreign trade and investment. it is a respected member of the global community, and neither side has broken the agreement. what happens if the make a bomb? they lose everything they have gained as sanctions are reintroduced and foreign businesses pull out. long story short: if Iran builds a bomb they may as well have just used it on themselves.

 

[Coyote]

I think the deal was the best solution we could have. The international sanctions would not have gone on indefinately. Already several major powers were restless. It brought them to the table and both sides had to sacrifice some - but what is the alternative?

- no deal, no talking and indefinate US sanctions, less certain international sanctions - Iran, in a corner saying fuck you we're going to do it.
- have sanctions been very effective with NK?
- this deal, *might* prevent a nuclear weapon - if it doesn't, it at least delays it and gives us more transparency (something we do not have with NK).

Most of all - WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?

None of the critics are giving realistic alternative plans. Sometimes - the best solution is the best of multiple bad ones. Similar to what we faced with NK.

 

[Josf]

"480 views but only 8 people have answered the survey question"

It is an ambiguous question; therefore it can potentially mean anything. So why answer it?

"Do you think that the deal was beneficial overall?"

I do not trust the information that claims to report a deal being offered by someone to someone, or by people in one group offering a deal to people in another group.

That is the first problem.

If the deal is as you say it is, and those offering the deal are these people claiming to be the authorities of all the people in America, then that is another problem. The last actual president of the Untied States of America was Cyrus Griffin:

Cyrus Griffin The Forgotten Founders

The current so called President isn't even going by his actual name, which is said to be Barry Soetero, not Barack Hussein Obama, and the group this man is associated with is a group of infamous criminals working a very old pyramid scheme. The U.S. is now a foreign owned corporation run by foreigners, and it is very much a part of the International Monetary FUND, and much of their power is derived through control over petroleum.

The details of the so called deal are thereby fraudulently reported since the false claims of the deal having anything to do with the actual free American people, or the actual free Iranian people, are false connections made by criminals.

"Do you think that the deal was beneficial overall?"

Compared to what? Compared to all those criminals involved in the criminal deal confessing their guilt and giving up their power to perpetrate further crimes such as this so called deal?

The deal is certainly beneficial to those who have a vested interest in offering the deal. Who receives benefits by this deal? How are these benefits measured accurately as these benefits materialize in fact?

The benefit I see is exemplified in the parable about the Emperor's new clothes. All the sycophants are offering their esteemed opinions concerning how wonderful the imaginary clothes look as the Emperor prances around acting out the charade. Keep on claiming that these criminals are anything other than criminals and in that way they remain unfettered in perpetrating crimes against humanity for as long as the marks follow orders without question.

Barry is an infamous criminal in a long line of criminals dating back to George Washington.